Hello. Here is hoping that this is viewed and considered.
I am ok to great with the move from minor elemental to mental minor circle and moving bard spells to the mental CS/TD list.
My take.
1208 group spell helpful to cut down casting rt at least.
1230 Can this be changed? How about it works like 1017 song of noise works now? I guess it will be seen in the test server but I can't see this being even as effective as 1011 song of peace used to be.
1001 War chant -Neat booster spell no problem with setup spells of 1rt.
1002 Resonance -Addition of lockpicking/disarm is a good one. Any thoughts on it affecting a class of creatures? IE crystal golems?
1003 Dissonance -Seems to be great for a more spell casting sort.
1004 Purification song. Can we get an evoke version of this to take the gem to max value with increased mana use? The hours I have spent wishing to not be staring at my screen could really go away so as to never harm the mentality of newer bards. I could then continue to say things like...."You young bards don't know how good your life is. Why back in my day it used to take 4 hours to purify 360 gems!" This would please me :)
1005 Lullaby Song I agree more viewed rolls is helpful to understand success failure.
1006 Etude of Certainty I will never complain about TD if we get to be where my self spelled TD has even a chance of resisting a CS spell from creatures I will be happy. The CS booster portion of this seems to be +6CS for what I think my telepathy will be (48 ranks of telepathy) to +12 at 96 Ranks of telepathy with 96 ranks and +13-+17 availble through ascension and enhancive boosters. Decent.
1007 Kai's Anthem Great and needed change with the loss of 425 and 1035 group speed bonus. Seed telepathy bonus formula going goodbye is noted and and I am thankful for it.
1008 Banshee's Wail. Hey damage spell will be good to use you.
1009 Sonic Shield Yes please to everything here but I would like to point out the battle between telepathy and manipulation reaches its zenith in sonic weapons. Where before we could get double flares and shield size without having to "sacrifice" training methods now we do.
1010 Sort of confused on this one. So I have a prepped spell as I attack physically and it has a chance of being cast as my physical RT is expiring? Would it be better to be able to set the cresendo spell like 712 is set for a spell?
1011 This RT is applied immediately? If so awesome. If not then ok but it should induce RT at the start to be "most" effective. I do realize that 10RT is way more than normal for these types of spells though.
1012 see 1009.
1013 Song of Unraveling Auto renewal is a win here.
1014 Sonic Armor see 1012 and 1009.
1015 Requiem So my fictional build of 50 telepathy and 50 manipulation will see a 17 percent chance to trigger a dirge of the dead effect. Max 100 telepathy ranks is 30% to trigger and with ascension and enhancives maxed it would be 40%. My "build" + ascension and enhancives maxed would be 27%.
1016 Travelers song. All is fine here.
1017 Cacophony 917 but for bards with flares in it? Sounds good. I think 917 is a fine spell.
1018 Song of Power I do not see why this has to be exclusive with 1213 1216 1230. You are taking away one of our buff spells IMO.
1019 Melody of Mirrors no changes but I would like to point out how woefully this song compares to Mobility. If the bonus to dodge disparity is so great can it get some flavor? Distract an oppnent that hits a mirrored version or something?
1020 Luck's Reverberation Design seems fine. Increasing difficulty to work on items seems troublesome.
1025 Dancing Weapon Are we encouraging 100 rank manipulation or 100 rank telepathy bards? Giving them a solid bonus? Thanks for those who choose the route of all or nothing.
1030 If you are going to move damage to be more inline with 635 I would like some comparisons to a 202 spell ranger to a 202 spell bard. Right now my feeling is that 635 gives more chances to kill something by providing more damage cycles while 1030 gives one damage cycle all the deadliness. Seems fair to me. Why doesn't to you? Also will you stop super nerfing it in Warcamps? Move it to 1035 and 1035 to 1030 and have 635 and 1030 be compatable.
1035 This is a double nerf of taking 1rt off the table. Can we get 2RT with all weapons + Random 1rt for bard and bard groupers. No need to cast it so it will sort of work like 535 haste? Can we get different RT help for different actions? Ie searching for heirlooms, lost weapons, and herbs?
1050 Is this back open to suggestions?
Richard
Player of Galenblackbard
CANDIDE
KRAKII
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/27/2021 04:20 PM CDT
"1013 Song of Unraveling Auto renewal is a win here." -- GalenBlackBard
Re-read that. You are not getting auto-renewal (like to pull out more mana); you are getting a five-second auto-renewal to strip off an additional spell, up to three times (with your Lore training).
So that would be at the 15-second mark, the third one finally pays off.
During which time you have (manually!) renewed (for 13 mana!) four more times.
0 - cast, 1 spell departs [1]
1 -
2 -
3 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [2]
4 -
5 - 15 Lore gives you an auto, another spell departs [3]
6 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [4]
7 -
8 -
9 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [5]
10 - 30 Lore gives you an auto, another spell departs [6]
11 -
12 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [7]
13 -
14 -
15 - 45 Lore gives you an auto, another spell departs [8] AND ALSO castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [9]
Comparatively few creatures in my experience have so many spells. Normally I use my X/day multi-Dispel wands (I have one that is just Mental/Elemental, and one that is "all three") against something that I expect to have a boatload of spells.
Note that since you are re-CASTING each time, you have to BEAT THE CS/TD CHECK again, each time. (Rather than being a limpet hanging off its side, and just 'renew' to pull away another spell.)
If at any point in that process, "the last spell" gets removed, the auto-renewals end. The auto-renew does NOT happen on the mana-drain part of Unravel.
.
.
And thanks for re-mentioning Tonis!
Estild, you had previously said that "no, going to the next step of EL:Air would NOT give -4s total."
Since we have a proposed change to Tonis (-1s at 35 Songs, -2s at a +40 step [75 Songs net]) and now a 2s floor...
...would you be open to a +45 Song step [next in progression] giving -3s at 120 Songs?
Looking at HESS spell-rank Enhancives... -4s at +50 step == 170 Songs?
(Still a hard 2s floor, though. This just speeds up bigger weapons.)
Re-read that. You are not getting auto-renewal (like to pull out more mana); you are getting a five-second auto-renewal to strip off an additional spell, up to three times (with your Lore training).
So that would be at the 15-second mark, the third one finally pays off.
During which time you have (manually!) renewed (for 13 mana!) four more times.
0 - cast, 1 spell departs [1]
1 -
2 -
3 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [2]
4 -
5 - 15 Lore gives you an auto, another spell departs [3]
6 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [4]
7 -
8 -
9 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [5]
10 - 30 Lore gives you an auto, another spell departs [6]
11 -
12 - castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [7]
13 -
14 -
15 - 45 Lore gives you an auto, another spell departs [8] AND ALSO castRT ends, you can "incant 1013" and another spell departs [9]
Comparatively few creatures in my experience have so many spells. Normally I use my X/day multi-Dispel wands (I have one that is just Mental/Elemental, and one that is "all three") against something that I expect to have a boatload of spells.
Note that since you are re-CASTING each time, you have to BEAT THE CS/TD CHECK again, each time. (Rather than being a limpet hanging off its side, and just 'renew' to pull away another spell.)
If at any point in that process, "the last spell" gets removed, the auto-renewals end. The auto-renew does NOT happen on the mana-drain part of Unravel.
.
.
And thanks for re-mentioning Tonis!
Estild, you had previously said that "no, going to the next step of EL:Air would NOT give -4s total."
Since we have a proposed change to Tonis (-1s at 35 Songs, -2s at a +40 step [75 Songs net]) and now a 2s floor...
...would you be open to a +45 Song step [next in progression] giving -3s at 120 Songs?
Looking at HESS spell-rank Enhancives... -4s at +50 step == 170 Songs?
(Still a hard 2s floor, though. This just speeds up bigger weapons.)
CANDIDE
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/27/2021 05:25 PM CDT
See I do not use 1013 on monsters with spells on them except in the scatter. So the way I read this passage "Mental Lore - Manipulation gains a benefit of the spell auto-reapplying" means it will do a renew automatically without me having to go renew 1013\r. Very rarely do I need to take mana 3 times from a creature.
On another note will the mana drained from creatures formula be reconsidered? Right now we get half of half at best I believe. Could that be made better through lores or whatnot?
GBB
On another note will the mana drained from creatures formula be reconsidered? Right now we get half of half at best I believe. Could that be made better through lores or whatnot?
GBB
LUXELLE
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/27/2021 07:12 PM CDT
>See I do not use 1013 on monsters with spells on them except in the scatter. So the way I read this passage "Mental Lore - Manipulation gains a benefit of the spell auto-reapplying" means it will do a renew automatically without me having to go renew 1013\r. Very rarely do I need to take mana 3 times from a creature.
I use unravel for the mana, too. And I read the new version as costing so much mana to make it a meaningless gesture to attempt. Unless that 'reapply' new thingie costs no mana.
With all the mana required to fund the proposed bard changes ... skimming off mana is going to become a critical skill just to survive for casting bards. So I had this new spell marked in the BIG BAD BOLD RED column of my notes.
~L.
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I use unravel for the mana, too. And I read the new version as costing so much mana to make it a meaningless gesture to attempt. Unless that 'reapply' new thingie costs no mana.
With all the mana required to fund the proposed bard changes ... skimming off mana is going to become a critical skill just to survive for casting bards. So I had this new spell marked in the BIG BAD BOLD RED column of my notes.
~L.
--
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CANDIDE
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/27/2021 09:19 PM CDT
"I use unravel for the mana, too. And I read the new version as costing so much mana to make it a meaningless gesture to attempt. Unless that 'reapply' new thingie costs no mana.
With all the mana required to fund the proposed bard changes ... skimming off mana is going to become a critical skill just to survive for casting bards. So I had this new spell marked in the BIG BAD BOLD RED column of my notes.-Luxelle"
I remembered I also use it vs sirens in nelemar who would require quite a few renews to get to all the spells and then the mana they have to give (140-150 or so). Taking that into consideration I am wondering if this song will still be useful with the old (variable renew costs according to spell taken) to what will be done now.
GBB
With all the mana required to fund the proposed bard changes ... skimming off mana is going to become a critical skill just to survive for casting bards. So I had this new spell marked in the BIG BAD BOLD RED column of my notes.-Luxelle"
I remembered I also use it vs sirens in nelemar who would require quite a few renews to get to all the spells and then the mana they have to give (140-150 or so). Taking that into consideration I am wondering if this song will still be useful with the old (variable renew costs according to spell taken) to what will be done now.
GBB
ALLENM20
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/27/2021 10:20 PM CDT
Song of Unraveling (1013)
Usage changes from RENEW verb to re-casting the spell within 30 seconds. Mental Lore - Manipulation gains a benefit of the spell auto-reapplying to the target again after 5 seconds after a successful cast once per 15 ranks of lore. This effect ends once either the target successfully wards the spell, the spell drains mana from the target (occurs after all spells on the target have been removed), or the caster runs out of renewal applications.
I think ya'll need to re-read it. The updated version seems pretty incredible on paper.
From how I'm understanding it you would need 90 ranks of mental lore manipulation to maximize the spell for 6 recasts over 30 seconds.
Let's say a siren is wearing the following:
Elemental Defense I
Elemental Defense II
Elemental Defense III
Song of Mirrors
Song of Tonis
Your first cast strips EL1 for 13 mana.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL2.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL3.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Mirrors.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Tonis.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and drains mana from the siren.
1013 ends.
Usage changes from RENEW verb to re-casting the spell within 30 seconds. Mental Lore - Manipulation gains a benefit of the spell auto-reapplying to the target again after 5 seconds after a successful cast once per 15 ranks of lore. This effect ends once either the target successfully wards the spell, the spell drains mana from the target (occurs after all spells on the target have been removed), or the caster runs out of renewal applications.
I think ya'll need to re-read it. The updated version seems pretty incredible on paper.
From how I'm understanding it you would need 90 ranks of mental lore manipulation to maximize the spell for 6 recasts over 30 seconds.
Let's say a siren is wearing the following:
Elemental Defense I
Elemental Defense II
Elemental Defense III
Song of Mirrors
Song of Tonis
Your first cast strips EL1 for 13 mana.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL2.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL3.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Mirrors.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Tonis.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and drains mana from the siren.
1013 ends.
| As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear. |
| A squeaky halfling nearby asks, "Why you playing with orcs heads and troll rearends?!" |
CANDIDE
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/27/2021 10:43 PM CDT
"Your first cast strips EL1 for 13 mana.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL2.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL3.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Mirrors.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Tonis.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and drains mana from the siren.
1013 ends. -allenm20"
This is how I read it. Here is to this being what we will see.
GBB
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL2.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips EL3.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Mirrors.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and strips Song of Tonis.
1013 auto-reapplies after 5 seconds and drains mana from the siren.
1013 ends. -allenm20"
This is how I read it. Here is to this being what we will see.
GBB
LUXELLE
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/27/2021 11:38 PM CDT
>This effect ends once either the target successfully wards the spell, the spell drains mana from the target
So you only get one mana pull from the reapply thing, and have to cast the spell again with full mana cost for the next mana strip ... which ends because there are not spells ... etc.
So if you use the song for stripping spells, it's a great gain. If you use it to leech mana, it's pretty much a loss.
This is how I read it.
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So you only get one mana pull from the reapply thing, and have to cast the spell again with full mana cost for the next mana strip ... which ends because there are not spells ... etc.
So if you use the song for stripping spells, it's a great gain. If you use it to leech mana, it's pretty much a loss.
This is how I read it.
--
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KRAKII
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/28/2021 05:24 AM CDT
AllenM20 & I said exactly the same thing--except that he went out to the Lore max possible (6 repeats), and I stopped at GBB's projected training (3 repeats)--only my list included "and you cast some more, too," as well as the automatics.
Me, I'm usually trying to go through spells quickly, not "wait in front of creatures longer than I have to."
Will I take "extra casts to strip spells off sooner, that cost me no mana"? Absolutely.
Will I stand around and just wait for them to happen? No.
Or pro-actively take MORE off while I'm doing it? Also, absolutely.
.
Once you're out of spells, though, I think we are all agreed: the utility for "getting mana back" seems to take a hit. (Because "pay full 13 mana for the cast, rather than less.")
However, everyone should feel free to pile in with posts agreeing with the point that I have raised for years about Unravel: first there is the d100/random check to see if you succeed, and last there is the "and how much goes through"/Mana Control check...
...but in between those, there is an additional random "and how much do you get?" going on.
(I have posted several logs where consecutive renewals at the same creature had a HIGHER result return LOWER mana than the next one.)
Take that step out, and we make good progress. (We already have a random result: it's called the d100/"did you hit it, and by how much" check.)
Increase the limitation of "you can get no more than half of what is drained", and we make more progress.
Me, I'm usually trying to go through spells quickly, not "wait in front of creatures longer than I have to."
Will I take "extra casts to strip spells off sooner, that cost me no mana"? Absolutely.
Will I stand around and just wait for them to happen? No.
Or pro-actively take MORE off while I'm doing it? Also, absolutely.
.
Once you're out of spells, though, I think we are all agreed: the utility for "getting mana back" seems to take a hit. (Because "pay full 13 mana for the cast, rather than less.")
However, everyone should feel free to pile in with posts agreeing with the point that I have raised for years about Unravel: first there is the d100/random check to see if you succeed, and last there is the "and how much goes through"/Mana Control check...
...but in between those, there is an additional random "and how much do you get?" going on.
(I have posted several logs where consecutive renewals at the same creature had a HIGHER result return LOWER mana than the next one.)
Take that step out, and we make good progress. (We already have a random result: it's called the d100/"did you hit it, and by how much" check.)
Increase the limitation of "you can get no more than half of what is drained", and we make more progress.
KRAKII
Re: Bard Design Proposal
09/30/2021 12:49 PM CDT
It looks like the "Krakii's Giant Laundry List of Bard suggestions" (post #546, "Comprehensive BardSong suggestion list/review requests") got DELETED from the Category:'Bard' \ Topic:'Bard Magic, Spells, and Spellsongs' when the Old Forum Topics were carried over in the Board change.
Text of that (from my archives) CC'd at bottom.
But the proposed re-write actually addresses many of them:
* still no Sonic Arrows, but Sonic Bows will be permitted;
* Dancing Weapon will get attribute boosts, and I had asked for clarification on whether "sonic flare" was intended or not (it was referenced elsewhere in the doc--"potential bard only benefit" for increased flares--but NOT in Dancing Weapon);
- Noise going away completely;
* both Shield and Armor getting flares;
+ Estild had replied and said that Tonis did NOT benefit from Lore ranks sufficient for the next step, but now that it is shifting to a) spell [not Lore] ranks and b) a higher floor... we can ask for higher tiers again (and I already have);
- the various Dispels have been updated not to hit de-buffs, but I state authoritatively that Unravel still does (it strips off my own Depression from the Reim Empress);
+ Given that the "suck mana from a creature" cost just TRIPLED (was '4', now we will have to re-cast the spell == '13'), the point about "only getting HALF the mana drained" should be re-addressed;
+ likewise, the "extra randomization of amount of mana drained" step should be re-addressed;
* I am much less concerned about 'renew' not triggering runestaff flares, because 'renew' verb is going away;
+ Manipulation ranks' effects on VibeChant/1002 should still be clarified;
+ Lullabye/1005 should give grogginess upon awakening;
* Depression/1015 RT is shifting to Aria/1011, and TD effect is becoming autosuccess;
* Sonic Equipment renewals/mnemonics already changed recently to be easier.
So about half have already been dealt with (in the proposed shift to Mental), but there are still several that could be addressed.
.
Original post:
By: KRAKII
Re: Comprehensive BardSong suggestion list/review requests
On: 09/22/2015
At: 12:54 PM EDT
##: 546
So since I've been playing the Bard a bit recently, I figured I would go ahead and look in on all of the various suggestions/requests floating around. Particularly mine, since I love reading my own ideas. :)
+ Sonic Arrows (for use with a real bow), and of course with the capability of Sonic Weapon Flares; cost of one (1) mana, both for the initial cast and for renewals.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/167
+ Dancing Weapon/1025 (Ranged & Thrown ONLY) gaining Sonic Weapon Flares, since--without the previous implementation--they lose out.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/169
+ Dancing Weapon/1025 getting Sonic Weapon-style flares, period. Melee as well as Ranged/Thrown. AND ADD RUNESTAFF to be created, and get flares (so when the PC casts, the dancing runestaff can go off bang, too).
(Same post) http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/169
+ Single-target Song of Noise, so that JUST THAT ONE (rather than the whole room... including the caster) target is magically inconvenienced.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/170
+ Sonic Shield/1012 & Sonic Armor/1014 gaining Air-flares, though possibly only the 'second' flare in order to require training in EL:Air before the benefit is achieved.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/177
+ Allow the Bard to animate an actual weapon with Dancing Weapon/1025, rather than creating a virtual one. This would be handing for owners of artifacts like Sorrow, or two (or more) of the dwarven runeblades, and so on.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/189
+ Clarification (if currently active) or enhancement (to add the next level of benefit) on Song of Tonis/1035: 135 ranks should give an additional -1s of RT. (Progression is -1s for Song use, and -1s additional benefit at 30 and 75 [== 30 + 15 == 45 more] ranks. Next step of progression should be [30 + 15 + 15 == 60 more ranks == 75 + 60 ==] 135 ranks of EL:Air.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/234
+ Unravel/1013 should skip completely over the casting Bards' effects (i.e. HoldSong, Lullaby, Depression, Rage).
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/243
+ re-write of 'Song Status' information to provide, well, lots more information (actual benefits, where known; actual renewal cost BY SONG; net mana cost broken down by normal renewal + MSP == total).
+ Single-targeted Unravel WHEN NOT CAST AT A PC should have the capability to get a flare from runetaff...
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/470
+ ...to include renewals of same.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/475
+ Clarification of "how much ML:Manipulation plays into the VibChant/1002 formula", as researched on GSWiki.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/475
+ Lullaby/1005 should provide grogginess, same as the revised Sleep/501.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/513
+ Re-vamp Unravel/1013 to remove the additional extra step of randomizing the mana result. There is already a random check (CS/TD warding result with d100), AND a limitation on how much drawn (based on #Songs known), AND a throughput limitation (based on MC:Mental). Why a random result, too? Last night, I saw two consecutive d100 results (on the same stone giant) give me a 209 final value; one pulled 8 mana [4 of which went to Unravel renewal], one pulled 16 mana [less 4 for renewal]. Both of these were LOWER results than the one immediately preceding them... which resulted in only NINE mana [less 4 for renewal].
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/516
+ Song of Depression/1015 should inflict its RT ("to include ML:Telepathy bonus" would be nice, but since Slow doesn't either...) upon success, just like Slow/504. It's three (nearly 4!) times the the level, even if it is a mass-effect, and seven (nearly 8!) times the level of Pious Trial.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/539
+ Add single-line capabilities to Sonic Equipment (like "renew sonicarmor 5" or "incant sonicshield aegis") rather than being required to go through "prep/cast <noun|number>".
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/542
+ Unravel/1013, with its built-in time limit of about 15 seconds, should--like Fortitude Song/1003--be
TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of the renewal cycle.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%
20Spellsongs/view/543
.
.
There you go! Sixteen (and a half, since I doubled up on the Unravel flares) ways to make Bards the true masters of Elanthia that we should be (at least, while I'm fired up to play my Bard).
Text of that (from my archives) CC'd at bottom.
But the proposed re-write actually addresses many of them:
* still no Sonic Arrows, but Sonic Bows will be permitted;
* Dancing Weapon will get attribute boosts, and I had asked for clarification on whether "sonic flare" was intended or not (it was referenced elsewhere in the doc--"potential bard only benefit" for increased flares--but NOT in Dancing Weapon);
- Noise going away completely;
* both Shield and Armor getting flares;
+ Estild had replied and said that Tonis did NOT benefit from Lore ranks sufficient for the next step, but now that it is shifting to a) spell [not Lore] ranks and b) a higher floor... we can ask for higher tiers again (and I already have);
- the various Dispels have been updated not to hit de-buffs, but I state authoritatively that Unravel still does (it strips off my own Depression from the Reim Empress);
+ Given that the "suck mana from a creature" cost just TRIPLED (was '4', now we will have to re-cast the spell == '13'), the point about "only getting HALF the mana drained" should be re-addressed;
+ likewise, the "extra randomization of amount of mana drained" step should be re-addressed;
* I am much less concerned about 'renew' not triggering runestaff flares, because 'renew' verb is going away;
+ Manipulation ranks' effects on VibeChant/1002 should still be clarified;
+ Lullabye/1005 should give grogginess upon awakening;
* Depression/1015 RT is shifting to Aria/1011, and TD effect is becoming autosuccess;
* Sonic Equipment renewals/mnemonics already changed recently to be easier.
So about half have already been dealt with (in the proposed shift to Mental), but there are still several that could be addressed.
.
Original post:
By: KRAKII
Re: Comprehensive BardSong suggestion list/review requests
On: 09/22/2015
At: 12:54 PM EDT
##: 546
So since I've been playing the Bard a bit recently, I figured I would go ahead and look in on all of the various suggestions/requests floating around. Particularly mine, since I love reading my own ideas. :)
+ Sonic Arrows (for use with a real bow), and of course with the capability of Sonic Weapon Flares; cost of one (1) mana, both for the initial cast and for renewals.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/167
+ Dancing Weapon/1025 (Ranged & Thrown ONLY) gaining Sonic Weapon Flares, since--without the previous implementation--they lose out.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/169
+ Dancing Weapon/1025 getting Sonic Weapon-style flares, period. Melee as well as Ranged/Thrown. AND ADD RUNESTAFF to be created, and get flares (so when the PC casts, the dancing runestaff can go off bang, too).
(Same post) http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/169
+ Single-target Song of Noise, so that JUST THAT ONE (rather than the whole room... including the caster) target is magically inconvenienced.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/170
+ Sonic Shield/1012 & Sonic Armor/1014 gaining Air-flares, though possibly only the 'second' flare in order to require training in EL:Air before the benefit is achieved.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/177
+ Allow the Bard to animate an actual weapon with Dancing Weapon/1025, rather than creating a virtual one. This would be handing for owners of artifacts like Sorrow, or two (or more) of the dwarven runeblades, and so on.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Bards/view/189
+ Clarification (if currently active) or enhancement (to add the next level of benefit) on Song of Tonis/1035: 135 ranks should give an additional -1s of RT. (Progression is -1s for Song use, and -1s additional benefit at 30 and 75 [== 30 + 15 == 45 more] ranks. Next step of progression should be [30 + 15 + 15 == 60 more ranks == 75 + 60 ==] 135 ranks of EL:Air.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/234
+ Unravel/1013 should skip completely over the casting Bards' effects (i.e. HoldSong, Lullaby, Depression, Rage).
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/243
+ re-write of 'Song Status' information to provide, well, lots more information (actual benefits, where known; actual renewal cost BY SONG; net mana cost broken down by normal renewal + MSP == total).
+ Single-targeted Unravel WHEN NOT CAST AT A PC should have the capability to get a flare from runetaff...
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/470
+ ...to include renewals of same.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/475
+ Clarification of "how much ML:Manipulation plays into the VibChant/1002 formula", as researched on GSWiki.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/475
+ Lullaby/1005 should provide grogginess, same as the revised Sleep/501.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/513
+ Re-vamp Unravel/1013 to remove the additional extra step of randomizing the mana result. There is already a random check (CS/TD warding result with d100), AND a limitation on how much drawn (based on #Songs known), AND a throughput limitation (based on MC:Mental). Why a random result, too? Last night, I saw two consecutive d100 results (on the same stone giant) give me a 209 final value; one pulled 8 mana [4 of which went to Unravel renewal], one pulled 16 mana [less 4 for renewal]. Both of these were LOWER results than the one immediately preceding them... which resulted in only NINE mana [less 4 for renewal].
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/516
+ Song of Depression/1015 should inflict its RT ("to include ML:Telepathy bonus" would be nice, but since Slow doesn't either...) upon success, just like Slow/504. It's three (nearly 4!) times the the level, even if it is a mass-effect, and seven (nearly 8!) times the level of Pious Trial.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/539
+ Add single-line capabilities to Sonic Equipment (like "renew sonicarmor 5" or "incant sonicshield aegis") rather than being required to go through "prep/cast <noun|number>".
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%20Spellsongs/view/542
+ Unravel/1013, with its built-in time limit of about 15 seconds, should--like Fortitude Song/1003--be
TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of the renewal cycle.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Bards/Bard%20Magic,%20Spells,%20and%
20Spellsongs/view/543
.
.
There you go! Sixteen (and a half, since I doubled up on the Unravel flares) ways to make Bards the true masters of Elanthia that we should be (at least, while I'm fired up to play my Bard).
KRAKII
Re: Bard Design Proposal
10/03/2021 10:45 AM CDT
I realized that I gave an injustice in my timing chart: I accounted for ONLY the initial cast starting a cycle of auto-renews. If I were truly casting more times as posited, then there would be more auto-renews, as well.
Mapping it out by impulse--getting back to my Star Fleet Battles roots!--for GBB's projected 45 ranks of Lore would look more like:
I also took out the 6th cast from my original post in #569; otherwise impulses 15 [cast], 20 [lore1], 25 [lore2], and 30 [lore3] would have raised the count by four more [+4].
Probably a more realistic approach would be a double-cast early on against a big spellcasting creature, and then "move on to other things":
Mapping it out by impulse--getting back to my Star Fleet Battles roots!--for GBB's projected 45 ranks of Lore would look more like:
| impulse | # | cycle | description |
| 0 | 1 | 1 | cast, 1 spell departs |
| 1 | |||
| 2 | |||
| 3 | 2 | 2 | castRT ends, can "incant 1013" and spell departs |
| 4 | |||
| 5 | 3 | 1 | 15 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 6 | 4 | 3 | castRT ends, can "incant 1013" and spell departs |
| 7 | |||
| 8 | 5 | 2 | 15 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 9 | 6 | 4 | castRT ends, can "incant 1013" and spell departs |
| 10 | 7 | 1 | 30 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 11 | 8 | 3 | 15 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 12 | 9 | 5 | castRT ends, can "incant 1013" and spell departs |
| 13 | 10 | 2 | 30 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 14 | 11 | 4 | 15 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 15 | 12 | 1 | 45 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 16 | 13 | 3 | 30 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 17 | 14 | 5 | 15 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 18 | 15 | 2 | 45 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 19 | 16 | 4 | 30 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 20 | |||
| 21 | 17 | 3 | 45 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 22 | 18 | 5 | 30 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 23 | |||
| 24 | 19 | 4 | 45 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 25 | |||
| 26 | |||
| 27 | 20 | 5 | 45 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
I also took out the 6th cast from my original post in #569; otherwise impulses 15 [cast], 20 [lore1], 25 [lore2], and 30 [lore3] would have raised the count by four more [+4].
Probably a more realistic approach would be a double-cast early on against a big spellcasting creature, and then "move on to other things":
| impulse | # | cycle | description |
| 0 | 1 | 1 | cast, 1 spell departs |
| 1 | |||
| 2 | |||
| 3 | 2 | 2 | castRT ends, can "incant 1013" and spell departs |
| 4 | |||
| 5 | 3 | 1 | 15 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 6 | |||
| 7 | |||
| 8 | 4 | 2 | 15 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 9 | |||
| 10 | 5 | 1 | 30 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 11 | |||
| 12 | |||
| 13 | 6 | 2 | 30 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 14 | |||
| 15 | 7 | 1 | 45 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
| 16 | |||
| 17 | |||
| 18 | 8 | 2 | 45 Lore gives an auto, spell departs |
KANDOR
Re: Bard Design Proposal
10/03/2021 11:54 AM CDT
I actually like the way the old spell song durations work compared to the newer group spells. Despite efforts to fix them, the group spells continue to drop off group members at a different timing than the group itself. So as you navigate over rocks or walls and into crevices or holes, where everybody goes on their own, the spells continue to drop off party members though the group now stays linked. For example, a slow party member might stay put for 20-30 sec and lose the spells, but still be in the group when he climbs over. This forces him to leave and rejoin the group to get the spells again - if he notices it. It seems like they have improved a bit, but they're still buggy.
Making the newer spells instead work more like older spell songs, where they have a certain duration and are just periodically renewed, seems like a more practical design than having all the weird logic about trying to tell when a party member is present and how long they have before stuff drops. Sure, it can be gamed, but it can be gamed for good as well -- useful for places like climbing trees and crossing rope bridges in a group. I would aim for something like 3 min renewal cycle instead of 1 min. It's still going to feel like a nerf for people who are used to 10 min cycles.
Also, in support of leaving the old spell song renewals, I compare songs to warcries. Maybe singing the praises of Kai should last awhile in the minds of the listeners after the song ends, just as Seanette's Shout lasts awhile. In exchange for this, since songs have no stamina cost, the spells should cost a lot more to renew.
Making the newer spells instead work more like older spell songs, where they have a certain duration and are just periodically renewed, seems like a more practical design than having all the weird logic about trying to tell when a party member is present and how long they have before stuff drops. Sure, it can be gamed, but it can be gamed for good as well -- useful for places like climbing trees and crossing rope bridges in a group. I would aim for something like 3 min renewal cycle instead of 1 min. It's still going to feel like a nerf for people who are used to 10 min cycles.
Also, in support of leaving the old spell song renewals, I compare songs to warcries. Maybe singing the praises of Kai should last awhile in the minds of the listeners after the song ends, just as Seanette's Shout lasts awhile. In exchange for this, since songs have no stamina cost, the spells should cost a lot more to renew.
KRAKII
Re: Bard Design Proposal
10/03/2021 12:01 PM CDT
The proposed 60-second renewal checks actually make dealing with groups a LOT easier, inasmuch as you do not have to 'renew' by hand--and pay mana, sooner--to get them back under the benefit once they re-join (or if you meet with somebody along the way and group up).
KANDOR
Re: Bard Design Proposal
10/03/2021 12:23 PM CDT
>The proposed 60-second renewal checks actually make dealing with groups a LOT easier, inasmuch as you do not have to 'renew' by hand--and pay mana, sooner--to get them back under the benefit once they re-join (or if you meet with somebody along the way and group up).
Hmm, that's a good point. Maybe some of the other group spells could auto-renew this way, too.
Hmm, that's a good point. Maybe some of the other group spells could auto-renew this way, too.
