COLLETTEJ2
Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/06/2021 08:55 PM CST
I have a level 25 Sylvan bard. She is in Voln for roleplay reasons. Right now she's using edged weapons and a shield but she's pretty wimpy. I'm not sure if I should try to nurse her along or change her skills. Any suggestions?
KRAKII
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/07/2021 05:54 AM CST
Unfortunately you do not yet have either of the two game-changers for Bards: Disruption at 30th, nor Tonis at 35th. The first one makes "being a caster-type Bard" a strong contender; the second one makes "swing a wimpy weapon (and devistate things with flares)" into a strong contender.
At 25th, I was down in the Krolvin mine using VibeChant hoping for lucky kills on warriors & warfarers, and if that didn't kill them they were essentially toothless (swinging a fist does minimal damage) so they could be killed at leisure.
My suggestion would be never to hunt any "natural" creature--only face ones that use weapons/shields, to give you targets for VibeChant--and have that be your lead action when something spawns. Maybe you get an easy kill for only 2 mana.
At 25th, I was down in the Krolvin mine using VibeChant hoping for lucky kills on warriors & warfarers, and if that didn't kill them they were essentially toothless (swinging a fist does minimal damage) so they could be killed at leisure.
My suggestion would be never to hunt any "natural" creature--only face ones that use weapons/shields, to give you targets for VibeChant--and have that be your lead action when something spawns. Maybe you get an easy kill for only 2 mana.
LUXELLE
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/07/2021 12:43 PM CST
25 to 35 were the roughest levels for me.
I under-hunted.
I died.
I moved to Ta'Illistim and hunted stuff that was not heavily armored.
I fixskilled around 31ish to move my spells to Elemental Minor first (among other fixes, thanks to Mister Taluric's advice <3 <3). I think I had up to Song of Luck, then forgot the rest of the bard things until I got to Elemental Minor's Elemental Barrier. THEN I went back to work on Bard songs.
In my pre level 50 world, Elemental Targeting and Elemental Barrier were my two game-changing spells. They kept me alive, and allowed me to hunt better/faster.
Find a good forged weapon. It does not have to be perfect, get a superior one. They do not have the same extra charge that perfects do.
Get it enchanted as much as you can afford. Make sure you are using the right shield.
I was wimpy, wimpy, wimpy.
Training Points for a bard are also very thin, use them for both what you need TODAY and what you need to have ready in the future.
Many of those higher bard songs you cannot actually utilize (realistically and effectively) until you are 20-30 levels above the level of the song anyway!
Bards grow (slowly) into the maturity of the power of music! Hang in there and do what you must to get to level 45/50. That was when I could finally hunt at level without the concerns I had before. It's a VERY rough experience to have a bard for a first character in GS.
~Luxie, who still feels like the apprentice bardess around here.
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I under-hunted.
I died.
I moved to Ta'Illistim and hunted stuff that was not heavily armored.
I fixskilled around 31ish to move my spells to Elemental Minor first (among other fixes, thanks to Mister Taluric's advice <3 <3). I think I had up to Song of Luck, then forgot the rest of the bard things until I got to Elemental Minor's Elemental Barrier. THEN I went back to work on Bard songs.
In my pre level 50 world, Elemental Targeting and Elemental Barrier were my two game-changing spells. They kept me alive, and allowed me to hunt better/faster.
Find a good forged weapon. It does not have to be perfect, get a superior one. They do not have the same extra charge that perfects do.
Get it enchanted as much as you can afford. Make sure you are using the right shield.
I was wimpy, wimpy, wimpy.
Training Points for a bard are also very thin, use them for both what you need TODAY and what you need to have ready in the future.
Many of those higher bard songs you cannot actually utilize (realistically and effectively) until you are 20-30 levels above the level of the song anyway!
Bards grow (slowly) into the maturity of the power of music! Hang in there and do what you must to get to level 45/50. That was when I could finally hunt at level without the concerns I had before. It's a VERY rough experience to have a bard for a first character in GS.
~Luxie, who still feels like the apprentice bardess around here.
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COLLETTEJ2
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/07/2021 08:56 PM CST
Thanks for the advice and encouragement. A appreciate the help.
TANDL
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/08/2021 12:32 PM CST
I wholeheartedly agree with the other two here. 20-50 is really an awkward time for bards. You end up either going too heavily into bardsongs to use your actual spells, or so far into elemental that you basically may as well not be a bard. I'm personally hoping that whatever changes are coming down will do something to address that. It's odd having the longterm skillset be as strong as it is with the lower end being so weak.
Also, Luxie, we should sit down sometime soon to figure out the Sanctum dilemma.
Taluric, player of.
Also, Luxie, we should sit down sometime soon to figure out the Sanctum dilemma.
Taluric, player of.
KRAKII
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/08/2021 01:00 PM CST
With that said, though... How do you see your character once you do have those two Songs?
- What I call the "SorcerBard", where you are a warding monster destroying everything with Disruption?
- As a whirlwind of flaring destructive goodness, laying waste to with the reaping harvest of death at 1s swing RT? (Eventually...)
It really is a lot easier to choose one, and then build towards that, than to try to be a weapon-swinger who also has really strong spells. You can shore up the weaknesses on one hand with what you're training anyhow on the other, but trying to be equally strong with both is cost-prohibitive.
- What I call the "SorcerBard", where you are a warding monster destroying everything with Disruption?
- As a whirlwind of flaring destructive goodness, laying waste to with the reaping harvest of death at 1s swing RT? (Eventually...)
It really is a lot easier to choose one, and then build towards that, than to try to be a weapon-swinger who also has really strong spells. You can shore up the weaknesses on one hand with what you're training anyhow on the other, but trying to be equally strong with both is cost-prohibitive.
LUXELLE
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/08/2021 06:51 PM CST
>With that said, though... How do you see your character once you do have those two Songs?
For me, I'm happily Disrupting my way to being able to train whatever it is I need to survive the Sanctum again.
Nothing to do with SorcerBard ... it's the POWER OF THE SONG!
But it took 13m exp just to get to runestaff defense, so ... I know I have a long ways to go. Ascension is going to have to wait.
Also, Mister Taluric ... that much talked about FIXSTATS happened last week. Wheeee!
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For me, I'm happily Disrupting my way to being able to train whatever it is I need to survive the Sanctum again.
Nothing to do with SorcerBard ... it's the POWER OF THE SONG!
But it took 13m exp just to get to runestaff defense, so ... I know I have a long ways to go. Ascension is going to have to wait.
Also, Mister Taluric ... that much talked about FIXSTATS happened last week. Wheeee!
--
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KRAKII
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/09/2021 09:09 AM CST
"But it took 13m exp just to get to runestaff defense, so ... I know I have a long ways to go. Ascension is going to have to wait." -- Luxelle
Errr... do you insist on doing it "only self-cast"? I stopped training weapon/shield ranks at about 36th (since I was in Guarded all the time), and untrained all weapon/shield ranks at 48th in order to go runestaff.
(Because I could get use out of all of those magical ranks, like "invoke scrolls" or "using imbeds" or "getting more mana per pulse" or "getting more uses of 'mana spellup'" and so on.)
Now, yes: I do have multi-account capability to throw essentially all of the common other-cast spells on each of me, so I glow pretty well regardless of who I am, but... they're commonly available other-cast spells, so ANYone can get them. Only if you're in a self-cast or SpellBurst area would they not be usable.
I only just passed 10M during Duskruin runs, so I still have a long way to go (1200p/1200m) to get to where you're at, but that's just about the 50 spells that I'm lacking right now.
(I'm unlikely to actually do it as "nothing but spells", but that's only because I like using SpellBound items and Sigil Staff maneuver lockdowns too much. I'll do the "full spell" route for an Arena re-spec. :)
.
I submit that for most areas of the game--not Arena, not spellburst, not Reim Royalty--a Bard could do just fine with runestaff defense, with 1x each in MIU, Scrolls, Spell Research, EL:Air (for Tonis, and sonic runestaff flares), ML:Manipulation (for Disruption), Harness, MC:Mental & MC:Elemental.
Oh, look! 8 magical ranks!
Of the set, MIU & Scrolls are the ones not to take if points are tight.
Errr... do you insist on doing it "only self-cast"? I stopped training weapon/shield ranks at about 36th (since I was in Guarded all the time), and untrained all weapon/shield ranks at 48th in order to go runestaff.
(Because I could get use out of all of those magical ranks, like "invoke scrolls" or "using imbeds" or "getting more mana per pulse" or "getting more uses of 'mana spellup'" and so on.)
Now, yes: I do have multi-account capability to throw essentially all of the common other-cast spells on each of me, so I glow pretty well regardless of who I am, but... they're commonly available other-cast spells, so ANYone can get them. Only if you're in a self-cast or SpellBurst area would they not be usable.
I only just passed 10M during Duskruin runs, so I still have a long way to go (1200p/1200m) to get to where you're at, but that's just about the 50 spells that I'm lacking right now.
(I'm unlikely to actually do it as "nothing but spells", but that's only because I like using SpellBound items and Sigil Staff maneuver lockdowns too much. I'll do the "full spell" route for an Arena re-spec. :)
.
I submit that for most areas of the game--not Arena, not spellburst, not Reim Royalty--a Bard could do just fine with runestaff defense, with 1x each in MIU, Scrolls, Spell Research, EL:Air (for Tonis, and sonic runestaff flares), ML:Manipulation (for Disruption), Harness, MC:Mental & MC:Elemental.
Oh, look! 8 magical ranks!
Of the set, MIU & Scrolls are the ones not to take if points are tight.
LUXELLE
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/09/2021 01:31 PM CST
>Errr... do you insist on doing it "only self-cast"?
I'm not sure what you mean here.
I tried runestaff defense several times from level 90 something to post cap, and could never muster enough training points to pull it off.
Which was why I was left with a runestaff for flares and 1.5x shield for defense for a long time. I could afford the shield, but not the magic.
Maybe it was my terrible stats at the time, which have FINALLY been rectified. I've rarely been able to hunt until post-cap with only my own spells to protect me, so I've always gotten wizardlies, mobiles, etc from friends, or Mister Dreaven.
My current training zeroed out my air lor and since I no longer use it, it is going to stay at zero for a while. ;skills me anytime.
~L.
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I'm not sure what you mean here.
I tried runestaff defense several times from level 90 something to post cap, and could never muster enough training points to pull it off.
Which was why I was left with a runestaff for flares and 1.5x shield for defense for a long time. I could afford the shield, but not the magic.
Maybe it was my terrible stats at the time, which have FINALLY been rectified. I've rarely been able to hunt until post-cap with only my own spells to protect me, so I've always gotten wizardlies, mobiles, etc from friends, or Mister Dreaven.
My current training zeroed out my air lor and since I no longer use it, it is going to stay at zero for a while. ;skills me anytime.
~L.
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KRAKII
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/09/2021 03:01 PM CST
"My current training zeroed out my air lor and since I no longer use it, it is going to stay at zero for a while." -- Luxelle
Given that Tonis does affect the whole group for -RoundTime, and EL:Air is where that comes from, I find the 75 ranks of it to be an excellent investment.
(It also keeps me safer, by reducing the RT from all those stupid maneuvers and such, so that I can stand up/run away sooner.)
Then there's how it helps with Sonic Staff flares, if I happen to be lacking either the Nerve or the Sigil at the moment. (Or am in an area where Disarm is an issue.)
Obviously, YMMV in all cases. :)
.
"I've rarely been able to hunt until post-cap with only my own spells to protect me, so I've always gotten wizardlies, mobiles, etc from friends, or Mister Dreaven." -- ibid
Far as I'm concerned, "anything that someone can cast on someone else" is fair game. (And many of the self-cast ones (Self-Control, Cloak of Shadows, 905/907/908) can some times be found in scrolls/imbeds.)
Sounds like you go similarly clad.
.
Like I said: the fact that have the MIU & Scrolls, means that the casts that I use from them go a long way. So as you get better, you use fewer charges of that depletable resource that you have to replace.
On the other hand, those are the ranks about which I care the least.
And the MC:Realm ranks are right behind them.
Many levels, I got Spell Research and Lore and Lore and <whatever I was working on at the time, like Perception or PF>, and that's about it.
Given that Tonis does affect the whole group for -RoundTime, and EL:Air is where that comes from, I find the 75 ranks of it to be an excellent investment.
(It also keeps me safer, by reducing the RT from all those stupid maneuvers and such, so that I can stand up/run away sooner.)
Then there's how it helps with Sonic Staff flares, if I happen to be lacking either the Nerve or the Sigil at the moment. (Or am in an area where Disarm is an issue.)
Obviously, YMMV in all cases. :)
.
"I've rarely been able to hunt until post-cap with only my own spells to protect me, so I've always gotten wizardlies, mobiles, etc from friends, or Mister Dreaven." -- ibid
Far as I'm concerned, "anything that someone can cast on someone else" is fair game. (And many of the self-cast ones (Self-Control, Cloak of Shadows, 905/907/908) can some times be found in scrolls/imbeds.)
Sounds like you go similarly clad.
.
Like I said: the fact that have the MIU & Scrolls, means that the casts that I use from them go a long way. So as you get better, you use fewer charges of that depletable resource that you have to replace.
On the other hand, those are the ranks about which I care the least.
And the MC:Realm ranks are right behind them.
Many levels, I got Spell Research and Lore and Lore and <whatever I was working on at the time, like Perception or PF>, and that's about it.
TANDL
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/09/2021 03:54 PM CST
I’m still doing the 1x brawl, 2x shield, 0 dodge thing I’ve been doing since I capped. Well I’m up to 126 ranks of brawling now but meh. I’m definitely not the highest exp one here but I make it work.
Scatter gives me pause solo but if I’m careful I can handle north side. Everything else is manageable. Just don’t come to me expecting to get some piece of uber gear unlocked. My training has focused far more on defensive skills than offensive or magically ones for the last while.
Tal’s player.
Scatter gives me pause solo but if I’m careful I can handle north side. Everything else is manageable. Just don’t come to me expecting to get some piece of uber gear unlocked. My training has focused far more on defensive skills than offensive or magically ones for the last while.
Tal’s player.
CLUNK24963
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/09/2021 06:51 PM CST
How far is too far for a Bard in elemental?
My bard reached 1020, then he shifted and plans to go to 414 before going back to bard circle.
When he got 410, things started to get easier.
I needed some ground time for my foes
since polearms are so slow.
So - It turns out that
One mitigation to high round time is
to optimize opponent ground time.
(not) clunk
KRAKII
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/09/2021 07:48 PM CST
How often are you facing multiple opponents, when the EWave is needed?
I got a TON of mileage out of Lullabye/1005--but again: ridiculously high CHArisma (at the time; it got 5 lower in the change to INFluence at GS4)--but that only works on a single target at a time.
On the other hand, it can frequently last longer than an EWave (if you leave the sleeping dog lie), and of course it's only half the price.
I got a TON of mileage out of Lullabye/1005--but again: ridiculously high CHArisma (at the time; it got 5 lower in the change to INFluence at GS4)--but that only works on a single target at a time.
On the other hand, it can frequently last longer than an EWave (if you leave the sleeping dog lie), and of course it's only half the price.
CLUNK24963
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/10/2021 05:24 PM CST
>>How often are you facing multiple opponents, when the EWave is needed?
The bard is a sad fighter, any time there are two or more.
If only one, cman trip is the first choice.
I tried lullaby, and it did not seem to work as well.
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
KRAKII
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/10/2021 05:41 PM CST
"I tried lullaby, and it did not seem to work as well." -- Clunk
- What race?
(INF bonus can vary wildly.)
- Have you turned your face away from the Book of Krakii, wherein is held the true word?
(That a Bard should NOT tank their INFluence--and rely on stat growth over time--but instead reveal their tremendously convincing power.)
- What race?
(INF bonus can vary wildly.)
- Have you turned your face away from the Book of Krakii, wherein is held the true word?
(That a Bard should NOT tank their INFluence--and rely on stat growth over time--but instead reveal their tremendously convincing power.)
ZENNSUNNI
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/15/2021 11:40 AM CDT
>I have a level 25 Sylvan bard. She is in Voln for roleplay reasons. Right now she's using edged weapons and a shield but she's pretty wimpy. I'm not sure if I should try to nurse her along or change her skills. Any suggestions?
Are you using shield bash? If not, I'd recommend it. I would not use a sonic shield at this point, but get yourself a spiked/flaring tower shield (or just a flaring tower shield) instead. If you're going to use OHE, use a falchion or handaxe unless you are opposed to it for RP reasons. If you are a little selective in what you hunt, you should find shield bash setups and then just beating down squish undead should be pretty effective. I currently hunt with a spear/shield warrior in voln around your level, and I have no trouble dealing large amounts of damage with a 1h to prone enemies, and a falch/axe hits way harder than a spear.
Also, I noticed a few responses indicating 1030/1035 are game-changers. I don't think this is genuinely accurate. When you get 1030, even if you fixskills into a pure bard setup, mana is an issue particularly if you aren't in a society that enables you to generate a ton of mana (not voln). 1035 is also, while very powerful, not something you can use a ton. At level 67 on my swinging bard, I cannot keep 1035 up for an entire hunt as a general rule. I say this because I don't think you should expect to get 1035 and suddenly have everything change (it won't).
Best of luck.
Are you using shield bash? If not, I'd recommend it. I would not use a sonic shield at this point, but get yourself a spiked/flaring tower shield (or just a flaring tower shield) instead. If you're going to use OHE, use a falchion or handaxe unless you are opposed to it for RP reasons. If you are a little selective in what you hunt, you should find shield bash setups and then just beating down squish undead should be pretty effective. I currently hunt with a spear/shield warrior in voln around your level, and I have no trouble dealing large amounts of damage with a 1h to prone enemies, and a falch/axe hits way harder than a spear.
Also, I noticed a few responses indicating 1030/1035 are game-changers. I don't think this is genuinely accurate. When you get 1030, even if you fixskills into a pure bard setup, mana is an issue particularly if you aren't in a society that enables you to generate a ton of mana (not voln). 1035 is also, while very powerful, not something you can use a ton. At level 67 on my swinging bard, I cannot keep 1035 up for an entire hunt as a general rule. I say this because I don't think you should expect to get 1035 and suddenly have everything change (it won't).
Best of luck.
KRAKII
Re: Sylvan Bard Skill change?
03/15/2021 01:02 PM CDT
"Also, I noticed a few responses indicating 1030/1035 are game-changers. I don't think this is genuinely accurate. When you get 1030, even if you fixskills into a pure bard setup, mana is an issue particularly if you aren't in a society that enables you to generate a ton of mana (not voln). 1035 is also, while very powerful, not something you can use a ton. At level 67 on my swinging bard, I cannot keep 1035 up for an entire hunt as a general rule. I say this because I don't think you should expect to get 1035 and suddenly have everything change (it won't)." -- Zennsunni
And on the other side... :)
I agree that Tonis' duration is pretty short to keep it up constantly--particularly at 35th level--but on the other hand... for the most part its duration doesn't change much, either (because once you have your base level of ML:Telepathy ranks [I stopped at 26 where Depression gave an extra -10TD, for -30 total] you sink the rest of your ML:ranks into Manipulation for Disruption).
Which means it gets easier to pay for as you go up in levels/gain more mana.
Also, you can use Unravel/1013 to strip mana from creatures, and use their power to fuel your spells. Likewise with wands--I recommend blue & crystal, after Duplicate if possible, and after a Charge Item 'channel' is even more better--acting as field batteries.
Using 'mana pulse' means that you can haul out those "+5 max mana/+7 mana recovery" runestaves that you pick up in the Arena/playershops--one in each hand--and get back +15 more mana than you would on a regular field pulse, before you stow them away again to get out your regular hunting runestaff.
By the time I was in the late 60s/early 70s, with Unravel and control over when my mana was coming in, I ran Tonis essentially non-stop while hunting up through Illoke Jarls at 95th level. (I pretty much went from there to the cap doing Arena runs, and would start it--at a cost of blown nerves--after defeating the 25th Champion in order to take advantage of the free heal/full mana upon exit; it would typically last up through about the 12th-16th opponent, depending on crit kills.)
I didn't care about it for the -3s RT for weapon swings... I cared about the Dodging ranks, and the -3s RT against maneuvers and other effects [like Reim annoyance-factor stuff].
.
.
If you have not yet thought about Tier5 mana flares... Not a lot sweeter for a Bard than doing a 35-mana Tonis, and getting a flare for 35 mana back.
(Although getting back 30 from starting an open Disrupt is pretty close. And 20 for an open renewal ain't bad, either.)
And on the other side... :)
I agree that Tonis' duration is pretty short to keep it up constantly--particularly at 35th level--but on the other hand... for the most part its duration doesn't change much, either (because once you have your base level of ML:Telepathy ranks [I stopped at 26 where Depression gave an extra -10TD, for -30 total] you sink the rest of your ML:ranks into Manipulation for Disruption).
Which means it gets easier to pay for as you go up in levels/gain more mana.
Also, you can use Unravel/1013 to strip mana from creatures, and use their power to fuel your spells. Likewise with wands--I recommend blue & crystal, after Duplicate if possible, and after a Charge Item 'channel' is even more better--acting as field batteries.
Using 'mana pulse' means that you can haul out those "+5 max mana/+7 mana recovery" runestaves that you pick up in the Arena/playershops--one in each hand--and get back +15 more mana than you would on a regular field pulse, before you stow them away again to get out your regular hunting runestaff.
By the time I was in the late 60s/early 70s, with Unravel and control over when my mana was coming in, I ran Tonis essentially non-stop while hunting up through Illoke Jarls at 95th level. (I pretty much went from there to the cap doing Arena runs, and would start it--at a cost of blown nerves--after defeating the 25th Champion in order to take advantage of the free heal/full mana upon exit; it would typically last up through about the 12th-16th opponent, depending on crit kills.)
I didn't care about it for the -3s RT for weapon swings... I cared about the Dodging ranks, and the -3s RT against maneuvers and other effects [like Reim annoyance-factor stuff].
.
.
If you have not yet thought about Tier5 mana flares... Not a lot sweeter for a Bard than doing a 35-mana Tonis, and getting a flare for 35 mana back.
(Although getting back 30 from starting an open Disrupt is pretty close. And 20 for an open renewal ain't bad, either.)
