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My understanding about the removal of a permifying option at this year's Summit is:
(1) There is a perceived long term issue of balance where everyone could theoretically be walking around with permified enhancives. Or they can keep them charged and still walk around with the enhancives.
(2) However, between the lines it sounds like the real problem is less permifying and more the number of higher value enhancives that are in circulation. Nonethless, the chosen control point seems to be crumbliness.
(3) Theory seems to be, the number of permified items has apparently gone up a lot so we're eliminating the option to permifying for people new to the game, newly returning, or otherwise not having done this in the past and this is somehow critical for the game world.
(4) There was a mechanic in place that jumped the cost of recharging permified items compared to the same enhancive not permified so we had to make a decision. Tradeoff decisions like that are always good for the game. But apparently the trade-off cost wasn't set high enough in retrospect...so instead of going in what might be one possible logical direction-upping the cost of recharging permed items, the availability of the service is going to instead be limited by a hard constraint (ie, imposed through a limited availability mechanism). Personally I like the idea of making it more costly but not an imposed constraint to create the balance.
(5) Meanwhile, we are told there are LOTS! of tokens out there from last year that can be used. That implies there is not a very strong constraint on the "market" for this Summit.
(6) With silvers being the only way to buy older tokens right now, this means the only ones who can afford to do it are those who either have lots of silvers already OR people willing to buy silvers/pay cash. Forcing people through this route does nothing for Simu (or the game overall). It also does nothing to reduce the silver supply. It doesn't seem to me to be in Simu's (and therefore the players') best interest to deprive SIMU of revenue while doing nothing for the silver market (since the same silvers aren't being absorbed).
Since there are allegedly "Lots" of older tokens in circulation we're told, why not hold a 1 day "After Christmas Sale" so Simu sees some of the value with these transactions? Since the price in silvers is typically 5 mil to 7 mil each, set the price at (say) 2000 SCs. State that it's unlikely a perm token this year will be useable at future Summits. This allows for the silver market to still exist but doesn't deprive SIMU of our dollars for those of us that would prefer SIMU get the proceeds?
I hope you'll consider the logic here and be flexible to do something cool for us...
Thanks for listening!
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CHUCK3B
Beating Dead Horses, Post-Christmas Sales, and boosting Simu's income, all in one!
12/25/2017 06:00 PM CST
KRAKII
Re: Beating Dead Horses, Post-Christmas Sales, and boosting Simu's income, all in one!
12/26/2017 09:26 AM CST
Silvers are not the only means of prying things from other characters' cold grasping hands.
- Use SimuCoins (whether you already have them, or buy just for this), and hand over Delivered items in-game.
- Direct cash infusion: Gift of Adventure. They Haz Monies.
- Could be there are other currencies (Reim & Duskruin spring immediately to mind) that you could use to entice things away from them.
- Barter of services (I'm a big fan of offering up Major Enchant projects, since I have an Enchanter), like Enchanting or Ensorcel or making Ranger-rods or lots of resistances or custom forging or...
- Of course there's always Krakii's standby: trading items for items.
- Use SimuCoins (whether you already have them, or buy just for this), and hand over Delivered items in-game.
- Direct cash infusion: Gift of Adventure. They Haz Monies.
- Could be there are other currencies (Reim & Duskruin spring immediately to mind) that you could use to entice things away from them.
- Barter of services (I'm a big fan of offering up Major Enchant projects, since I have an Enchanter), like Enchanting or Ensorcel or making Ranger-rods or lots of resistances or custom forging or...
- Of course there's always Krakii's standby: trading items for items.
CHUCK3B
Re: Beating Dead Horses, Post-Christmas Sales, and boosting Simu's income, all in one!
12/26/2017 09:37 AM CST
None of that really addresses what I'm saying. The other currencies are the same as silver at some exchange rate and depend on a player having been here for a while (or recently for some currencies).
I could have also noted that there's always the secondary market for the now permified items. It still leaves SIMU with nothing and all the currencies in the game (that's mostly unavoidable here, but at least SIMU could be getting the benefit-which is good for us players).
Whole 'nother topic though...I've been meaning to mention Gift of Adventure. No one in their right mind will use it when dealing with someone they don't know because of the delays.
"No one" is a deliberate exaggeration. But think about it...people want stuff NOW when they are paying real world money for something. But the seller has no clue if they buyer actually did anything for several DAYS (and at best a day). It's really a very dissatisfying system.
Personally, I'd rather I got paid in SIMU dollars when selling something. But it's just too risky and/or leaves a bad taste (due to the time lag if you wait for confirmation). Someone needs to look at this (for the good of SIMU, and therefore for our good too).
I could have also noted that there's always the secondary market for the now permified items. It still leaves SIMU with nothing and all the currencies in the game (that's mostly unavoidable here, but at least SIMU could be getting the benefit-which is good for us players).
Whole 'nother topic though...I've been meaning to mention Gift of Adventure. No one in their right mind will use it when dealing with someone they don't know because of the delays.
"No one" is a deliberate exaggeration. But think about it...people want stuff NOW when they are paying real world money for something. But the seller has no clue if they buyer actually did anything for several DAYS (and at best a day). It's really a very dissatisfying system.
Personally, I'd rather I got paid in SIMU dollars when selling something. But it's just too risky and/or leaves a bad taste (due to the time lag if you wait for confirmation). Someone needs to look at this (for the good of SIMU, and therefore for our good too).
KRAKII
Re: Beating Dead Horses, Post-Christmas Sales, and boosting Simu's income, all in one!
12/26/2017 10:11 AM CST
Similarly, your 'solution' doesn't solve what you say Simutronics is trying to do: limit permification.
Instead, you would have them be selling off even more of it.
That's just exacerbating the problem.
Instead, you would have them be selling off even more of it.
That's just exacerbating the problem.
CHUCK3B
Re: Beating Dead Horses, Post-Christmas Sales, and boosting Simu's income, all in one!
12/26/2017 12:24 PM CST
> Similarly, your 'solution' doesn't solve what you say Simutronics is trying to do: limit permification
Apparently either you're not remembering my whole argument or I'm doing a poor job of explaining it. The thesis is, doing the one day sale or whatever doesn't materially change the amount of permafication available in any serious way. Wyrom already said there are "lots and lots" of unused older tokens out there. They also indicated the problem is less permifying and more the widespread existence of high level enhancive totals. Imposing a limit on permanence here isn't going to change that. All that's happening right now is depriving SIMU of the revenue associated with those tokens while limiting their availability to those with silvers or those willing to pay cash for silvers (or equivalent currencies). If we're going to spend real world cash for the tokens, why not spend it with SIMU?
Apparently either you're not remembering my whole argument or I'm doing a poor job of explaining it. The thesis is, doing the one day sale or whatever doesn't materially change the amount of permafication available in any serious way. Wyrom already said there are "lots and lots" of unused older tokens out there. They also indicated the problem is less permifying and more the widespread existence of high level enhancive totals. Imposing a limit on permanence here isn't going to change that. All that's happening right now is depriving SIMU of the revenue associated with those tokens while limiting their availability to those with silvers or those willing to pay cash for silvers (or equivalent currencies). If we're going to spend real world cash for the tokens, why not spend it with SIMU?
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Beating Dead Horses, Post-Christmas Sales, and boosting Simu's income, all in one!
12/26/2017 01:06 PM CST
Between SimuCon and previous Summit Academy, there were a total of 312 possibly still out in circulation (assuming someone didn't junk one or leave the game with one still in their SIMUCOIN DELIVER list). As of right now, 62 have been redeemed. There are over 200 SimuCon tokens alone.
While I know there would be demand in buying them directly for SimuCoins, the purchasing from other players route is going to be it in terms of Summit Academy's offerings.
The service will be moving back to being a little more rarer and/or limited again. I know the argument can be made that we've already permified thousands and thousands, what's the harm in a thousand more. We just have to move forward at this time.
Wyrom, PM
While I know there would be demand in buying them directly for SimuCoins, the purchasing from other players route is going to be it in terms of Summit Academy's offerings.
The service will be moving back to being a little more rarer and/or limited again. I know the argument can be made that we've already permified thousands and thousands, what's the harm in a thousand more. We just have to move forward at this time.
Wyrom, PM
KRAKII
Re: Beating Dead Horses, Post-Christmas Sales, and boosting Simu's income, all in one!
12/26/2017 01:37 PM CST
Doing a one-day sale--or selling any number of them, for any length of time--WILL materially change permification, simply because everyone now knows that it's an issue. Back in January, when the Spire ran? Nobody thought anything of it, it was just One More Service; it had showed up several times before, and hey look, another venue.
.
And Simutronics has already been paid for all of the extant tokens: The ones from the runs earlier this year, were bought with Simucoins at that time; the ones from the Simucon goodie bag were paid via the IndieGogo funding for the 'Con.
Even though I am largely one of those who keeps espousing "don't beat up Simutronics for trying to make a profit", I am not so set on that that I am willing to pay them TWICE. :)
.
I think the Dev team
- did not properly think through the ramifications of Enhancives (+50 to any skill, +40 to any stat) when they added the ability in the GS4 conversion;
- that was compounded by the advent of Fusion items (especially the three-spot ones) to allow for cherry-picking and building really GOOD items with multiple double-digit bonuses--though somewhat mitigated being ONLY weapon/shield/armor--and benefitting from silver drain (for the really beefy ones) at the shaman;
- and then having a PERMANENT source of charging, through the Adventurer's Guild points. (Though again getting some benefit from draining silver each year.)
Any two of them, together, are powerful; all three of them together essentially made an Enhancive engine. The only limiting factor really lay in getting the items into your hands, which can be made to work through hunting for your own or just buying from someone else.
Really, the only thing that saved their bacon is the fact that the BIG values on the Enhancives don't drop terribly often, and the level limits to use them in the first place.
So now, they're trying to rein in the horse a bit.
.
.
I think one of the biggest effects the current Fusion tokens are going to have, is a possible inclination of future SC store purchases to pick up a few of the 'service' items on spec, and just sit on them until the NEXT run of the event. Why not? Something from THIS run may be taken-away-but-Grandfathered for those old tokens, so now they turn into a salable item in their own right.
.
And Simutronics has already been paid for all of the extant tokens: The ones from the runs earlier this year, were bought with Simucoins at that time; the ones from the Simucon goodie bag were paid via the IndieGogo funding for the 'Con.
Even though I am largely one of those who keeps espousing "don't beat up Simutronics for trying to make a profit", I am not so set on that that I am willing to pay them TWICE. :)
.
I think the Dev team
- did not properly think through the ramifications of Enhancives (+50 to any skill, +40 to any stat) when they added the ability in the GS4 conversion;
- that was compounded by the advent of Fusion items (especially the three-spot ones) to allow for cherry-picking and building really GOOD items with multiple double-digit bonuses--though somewhat mitigated being ONLY weapon/shield/armor--and benefitting from silver drain (for the really beefy ones) at the shaman;
- and then having a PERMANENT source of charging, through the Adventurer's Guild points. (Though again getting some benefit from draining silver each year.)
Any two of them, together, are powerful; all three of them together essentially made an Enhancive engine. The only limiting factor really lay in getting the items into your hands, which can be made to work through hunting for your own or just buying from someone else.
Really, the only thing that saved their bacon is the fact that the BIG values on the Enhancives don't drop terribly often, and the level limits to use them in the first place.
So now, they're trying to rein in the horse a bit.
.
.
I think one of the biggest effects the current Fusion tokens are going to have, is a possible inclination of future SC store purchases to pick up a few of the 'service' items on spec, and just sit on them until the NEXT run of the event. Why not? Something from THIS run may be taken-away-but-Grandfathered for those old tokens, so now they turn into a salable item in their own right.
KRAKII
Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 03:33 PM CST
HOWEVER, with that discussion all having been said...
...I do have an issue with this event's version of the Fusion Shaman.
Something which has nothing to do with permifying tokens. <beam>
.
Now, I will be the first to confess that this is my absolute first time interacting with him; everything before now has been through the kind offices of runners actually attending other (usually paid) events, like Ebon Gate.
Worse yet, when Giant Paragraph Of Text gets spit at me by an automated mechanic, I tend not to read it. I scrolled down to "pay this much silver" for the trait that I wanted orbed, and moved on.
And got my orbs.
And put them into my Fusion item.
But upon LoreSinging said item, I get something VASTLY different from what I started with.
There's a big difference between 7 ranks of MC:Spirit (== +35, since I have no ranks trained up on the Bard) paired with 12 bonus of MC:Spirit (== +47, total), the respective bonuses from the two items I had consumed by the shaman...
...and what I wound up with, which is two orbs conferring 4 ranks of MC:Spirit (== +20) paired with 9 bonus (== +29, total).
.
Was there in fact something in the shaman's spiel (that I skipped over), saying, "AndOhByTheWay this will consume 25-40% of the bonus being conferred", possibly that these orbs come pre-damaged as a result of their Tier2 creation?
Or is that just an extra special bonus that rides along with this iteration of the shaman?
(Because the previous orbs that were created for me--by the EG runners to whom I refer--got brought back with exactly the same bonus conferred by the orb as the source item from which it was created.)
...I do have an issue with this event's version of the Fusion Shaman.
Something which has nothing to do with permifying tokens. <beam>
.
Now, I will be the first to confess that this is my absolute first time interacting with him; everything before now has been through the kind offices of runners actually attending other (usually paid) events, like Ebon Gate.
Worse yet, when Giant Paragraph Of Text gets spit at me by an automated mechanic, I tend not to read it. I scrolled down to "pay this much silver" for the trait that I wanted orbed, and moved on.
And got my orbs.
And put them into my Fusion item.
But upon LoreSinging said item, I get something VASTLY different from what I started with.
There's a big difference between 7 ranks of MC:Spirit (== +35, since I have no ranks trained up on the Bard) paired with 12 bonus of MC:Spirit (== +47, total), the respective bonuses from the two items I had consumed by the shaman...
...and what I wound up with, which is two orbs conferring 4 ranks of MC:Spirit (== +20) paired with 9 bonus (== +29, total).
.
Was there in fact something in the shaman's spiel (that I skipped over), saying, "AndOhByTheWay this will consume 25-40% of the bonus being conferred", possibly that these orbs come pre-damaged as a result of their Tier2 creation?
Or is that just an extra special bonus that rides along with this iteration of the shaman?
(Because the previous orbs that were created for me--by the EG runners to whom I refer--got brought back with exactly the same bonus conferred by the orb as the source item from which it was created.)
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 03:59 PM CST
Pairing ranks and bonuses has had that effect since before any changes. I'll check it over to make sure nothing odd was introduced, but nothing was changed with that aspect of the orbing.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
KRAKII
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 04:33 PM CST
This is what I was using as a guide:
"Any type of orb may be placed in any armament that can accept fusion orbs, with one exception: two orbs enhancing the same trait may not be placed in the same piece, but one each may be placed into two different pieces (for these purposes, a bonus to a statistic and a bonus to a statistic bonus are considered different traits)." -- https://gswiki.play.net/Fusion#Charges
Note that the entire shaman page is entirely mute on the subject of "oh and you get less (of each!) if you combine both [ranks + skill] kinds."
The normal item page where the limits are show stands mum on the subject: https://gswiki.play.net/Enhancive_item
.
.
"Pairing ranks and bonuses has had that effect since before any changes." -- Wyrom
So if the two orbs were on two different items, I would see the full benefit(s)?
(I realize that that is probably the effect you folks were driving for, it just makes it a lot less convenient to pull out the "share mana with Empaths now" item and actually do so, which was the entire point of the exercise in the first place.)
"Any type of orb may be placed in any armament that can accept fusion orbs, with one exception: two orbs enhancing the same trait may not be placed in the same piece, but one each may be placed into two different pieces (for these purposes, a bonus to a statistic and a bonus to a statistic bonus are considered different traits)." -- https://gswiki.play.net/Fusion#Charges
Note that the entire shaman page is entirely mute on the subject of "oh and you get less (of each!) if you combine both [ranks + skill] kinds."
The normal item page where the limits are show stands mum on the subject: https://gswiki.play.net/Enhancive_item
.
.
"Pairing ranks and bonuses has had that effect since before any changes." -- Wyrom
So if the two orbs were on two different items, I would see the full benefit(s)?
(I realize that that is probably the effect you folks were driving for, it just makes it a lot less convenient to pull out the "share mana with Empaths now" item and actually do so, which was the entire point of the exercise in the first place.)
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 04:38 PM CST
Shoot me an email with the character and item, and I'll take a peek.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
LUXELLE
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 05:14 PM CST
I'm confused now.
I have old orbs in some fusion gear that one is for the BONUS, one is for the SKILL.
Are you saying they will no longer both work the same?
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
;tune towncrier
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
TownCrier News Dailies via Email: http://bit.ly/2ivAJfw
I have old orbs in some fusion gear that one is for the BONUS, one is for the SKILL.
Are you saying they will no longer both work the same?
---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
;tune towncrier
TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
TownCrier News Dailies via Email: http://bit.ly/2ivAJfw
KRAKII
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 07:34 PM CST
>>Are you saying they will no longer both work the same?
That's not what I was saying. When you combine RANKS with BONUS, there are points where it gets weird. My answer was more generalized thinking that it was hitting a rank threshold that lowered the bonus some. This usually happens when you have lower ranks in something and cross that threshold. I wasn't sure what was happening with Krakii's situation, that's why I'm looking into it more.
Wyrom, PM
That's not what I was saying. When you combine RANKS with BONUS, there are points where it gets weird. My answer was more generalized thinking that it was hitting a rank threshold that lowered the bonus some. This usually happens when you have lower ranks in something and cross that threshold. I wasn't sure what was happening with Krakii's situation, that's why I'm looking into it more.
Wyrom, PM
KRAKII
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 08:53 PM CST
I understand about bonuses crossing rank-value thresholds; I always understood that ranks happened first (to maximize the skill bonus they provide), then bonuses.
I was more concerned with a value of "12" when Loresung on the source item, turning into a value of "9" on the orb. See also values of "7" and "4".
I was more concerned with a value of "12" when Loresung on the source item, turning into a value of "9" on the orb. See also values of "7" and "4".
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 09:16 PM CST
I shot you a response via email, Krakii.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
KRAKII
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 09:53 PM CST
If it looks kosher from the items' records you have, I'm willing to believe I mis-transcribed in my notes. (Sadly, once I buy the item from PlayerShops, I no longer keep the printout of "I should think about getting these...." items.)
Mark this up as panicky customer: resolved, I guess.
Mark this up as panicky customer: resolved, I guess.
SIMU-WYROM
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 10:17 PM CST
Yeah, sorry for the lackluster news on that front, but the fusion shaman is not degrading from the get go.
Wyrom, PM
Wyrom, PM
VANKRASN39
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/26/2017 11:36 PM CST
>Note that the entire shaman page is entirely mute on the subject of "oh and you get less (of each!) if you combine both [ranks + skill] kinds
the purpose of that page is solely instructions on how to use the shaman, NOT to repeat the mechanics of fusion. Use the fusion page for that.
KRAKII
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/27/2017 06:33 AM CST
Yep, I checked that one, too.
Sadly, it looks like the items themselves were less than what I had recorded when purchased. :(
Sadly, it looks like the items themselves were less than what I had recorded when purchased. :(
KRAKII
Re: Fusion shaman {was: dead horses}
12/31/2017 01:28 PM CST
I already emailed Wyrom directly, after he & Coase researched the situation, but I figured I would want to set things straight here, too.
Turns out that I should make certain posts only from home--where my notes about "what to buy", and "what to get turned into an orb", and suchlike--are... rather than from work, where I do most of my Board reading & posting. <cough>
Seems that the 7 ranks of MC:Spirit runestaff... was one of those that I said, "Oh, I don't THINK so," to the shaman's silver cost to extract. (Over 2.5M extraction cost.) So it's still sitting in my locker, waiting to--maybe, eventually--get turned into an orb. Some day. :)
.
Nothing to see here, move along... <cough>
Turns out that I should make certain posts only from home--where my notes about "what to buy", and "what to get turned into an orb", and suchlike--are... rather than from work, where I do most of my Board reading & posting. <cough>
Seems that the 7 ranks of MC:Spirit runestaff... was one of those that I said, "Oh, I don't THINK so," to the shaman's silver cost to extract. (Over 2.5M extraction cost.) So it's still sitting in my locker, waiting to--maybe, eventually--get turned into an orb. Some day. :)
.
Nothing to see here, move along... <cough>
