<<That link seems to take time to forward properly, as it has for a long time (well before I was even a GameHost in 2007, as I recall people talking about this at the EG 2006 auction). It's always best to click the title or image to get to the ticket area. You can always see the details of the tickets as well before tickets go on sale. - Wyrom, apparently>>

As I said, I did not see this post.

<<Oh and here he's doing what any customer service rep would do, explaining he's forwarded the issue to the proper channels to see if it can get fixed. I don't see what else is required here, a formal apology? - Jhynnifer>>

No, that's not what he said. He said, "The link takes time to forward", which is an acknowledgement of the problem. He said, "it's best to click another area," which is apparently advice for people going forward and a tacit acknowledgement that this problem may not be addressed. He said, "you can see the details of the tickets well before they go on sale," which is a statement of fact ... assuming you know where to click. Nowhere does he say, "I'm going to look into this" or "I'm going to forward this to Simu-Whomever so they can address the issue because this shouldn't happen again", so either you're reading it wrong, interpreting it wrong, or you didn't do a full quote of everything he said.

<<He did. Perhaps not they way -you- would like, but he pretty much went by the book.>>

We will have to agree to disagree for two reasons: first, because your interpretation of his words isn't what he actually said; and second, because I don't think that that response is in any way "by the book."

And I just want to say - my ire isn't directed at Wyrom but at Simu as a whole. Wyrom's the only GM responding to this issue in this thread and that is laudable. And he helped me out immeasurably during RTCF when I mistakenly bought a major ticket that I didn't intend to buy, so I think he is a great guy and he has my gratitude for his excellent customer service in that regard. So the ONLY reason I am discussing Wyrom in this depth is because you are saying he said one thing when, in fact, he did not say it. I also don't think his response was acceptable, but that is apparently a subjective issue and I don't need to rehash my thoughts on that.

<<So what you're saying, if I have this right is you didn't see his post where he explained a way to go about it without dealing with that particular bug and you also didn't see his post I just C&P'd (and forgot to earlier)? >>

He made two posts. The first one - the original post that you quoted - I did not see. And that post did not say anything about him looking into the issue or otherwise acknowledging that players were upset. It just had some general commentary about the issue, which I do not believe is sufficient when he's representing the game and there are disgruntled customers.

The second post was made yesterday, in direct response to my statement that there had been no official recognition of the fact that there was a problem. So yes, Wyrom did indeed say that he was looking into the problem, however he did not say it until after I said, "Why hasn't anyone addressed the fact that players are unhappy with what's acknowledged to be a well-known bug?"

What I expect from good CS is a company representative to acknowledge the problem, indicate remorse or at least sympathy that the problem exists, indicate that they are going to try to take care of the problem, and a promise to follow up either way. That simply didn't happen here. So I am unhappy with the fact that I couldn't attempt to buy a ticket because the website didn't update. I'm even more unhappy with the seeming lack of official response and that's NOT a knock on Wyrom so much as it is a knock on Simu. I've played this game for a long time, since 1996, and I am well aware of Simu's generally terrible CS. That doesn't mean I'm just going to accept that the CS is always going to be terrible; I will continue to expect good CS for as long as I am a player.

>>1. Clicking on the title of a listing is the most common method of navigation on the Internet.

This is true when the listing does not have subsets of links beneath it as has been established for Gemstone events - More Information, Get your ticket, and Event Guidelines. As someone who has been on the internet, has worked for multiple internet sales and ISPs, and generally has no issue with this sort of thing I can state that the bug did stop me from getting to the correct page when the RtCF event 1, batch 1 was released. The title as it is now looks nothing like something that I would normally think to click on to get somewhere further.

>>2. """But Wyrom it said "Get your tickets - Available 12/19/13 9PM EST" but that message never changed, it still said they will be available at 9PM so I thought you were running late and no one came to hold my hand and I just kept refreshing but it kept saying 9PM even at 9:05 and I didn't get a ticket and you should make an extra run just for me."""

I didn't state to just have it be a message, what I stated was to use the "Get your tickets" link followed by the message of when they are available. That way, at the worst, when the correct time hit someone would click the link and actually be able to proceed forward through a direct path. The link itself would be able to be active just like the title and image links currently operate.

Having the date and time both here and on the next page would not prove harmful.

>>I give up. What does WK stand for in this context?

White Knight

>>I brought it up because I didn't see a post from you or any other GM saying that you're looking into it. Maybe I missed it, but all I recall seeing is people complaining and no official commentary of any kind. And I'm not blaming you for a bug that exists, by the way; I was commenting on the perception that Simu doesn't care about things that affect its longtime players, which sometimes seems to be the case.

Most people who were upset on the forums, also were reporting in game, and I sent a message to each one of them. I'm an offsite GM, there isn't a whole lot we can do for website issues. I've reported the issue with details to those that can take a look. I did mention it here on the forums. I wouldn't call it a bug or a secret. It's been like that probably longer than I've said. For some reason, that link has always been delayed at forwarding properly. If we can't sync them, I'm going to have to agree with Virilneus that maybe ditching the one link entirely might be the best solution.

GMs represent Simu on the forums, so most times when you blast Simu, you're blasting us. I don't think the past year has been bad for customer service on the forums. I think open communication and support has been pretty high. I understand that many people get frustrated and want to say we're being poor with customer service, or bring up something from the past. But maybe moving forward, we can stop using the past situations against GMs who are currently active. I don't think it's entirely fair that the current crop of GMs are atoning where others have failed. Maybe just see that we're trying pretty hard to steer things back in the right direction. Let's try to keep morale at a high.

I get it though. I get some people missed out on a ticket who were excited for the event. If the captcha wasn't in place, I'm sure we'd have heard it even louder when they sold out in under a minute. I also know that cool loot is a very big carrot for some of you. I hope that we can deliver a better event year in 2014. Trust me when I say this. I've used 2013 as a big learning experience.

And if you didn't get a ticket to DMC, we still are putting together a small thank you for everyone who comes out and wishes to grab a souvenir for the holidays.

---

~Wyrom, SGM
Premium
Platinum
Promotions

I agree with Wyrom on most of what he has said, but when the website says tickets are not available at this time, while tickets are being sold. . . That's a bug, no matter how long it's been there. Posting about this bug in the forums is not an acceptable solution. Posting it in the announcements before the sale of big ticket items, or in the big ticket announcements themselves is a solution, fixing the BUG before tickets go on sale, is a solution. Something simple at the top of the announcement like. . . "Remember, the tickets for this event could go fast due to there being a limited number of tickets, it's suggested going right to the ticket sale page, and refreshing until they are available, by clicking the title of the event, or the event icon. Good luck!". . . . After all the years this has been a problem, no one ever considered to put something simple like that?

>No matter how many times you try to argue back and forth, not matter how many POINTS you try to make, not matter how many times you try to ignore the baseline facts, they will not go away just because you want them to, and want to be right. The baseline facts are that NOT EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT THE BUG, in fact, MOST people didn't know about the bug. Saying it's been around for years, means NOTHING, saying that it's happens at most of the previous big ticket events, means NOTHING. Most people haven't gone to a big ticket event, most people haven't run into this problem before, most people haven't read previous bit ticket event forums. PERIOD There was NO reason for anyone, sitting there, refreshing the page, where it said there are no tickets available, to look anywhere else for tickets. This was extremely unfair for the majority of people trying to buy tickets. The other fact so many of you are trying to ignore, is that the site has a bug. . . it IS a mistake. . . no matter how long it's been there, no matter how often they point out the mistake AFTER the fact, no matter how many times they say their sorry for it, AFTER tickets have been sold out, and so many people didn't even get a CHANCE to buy tickts. This is a SIMU mistake, that they have not corrected for years, it was not made common knowledge before the tickets went for sale. They have caused anger by choosing not to fix, or announce this bug, so that it didn't effect people. They should find some way to compensate for THEIR mistakes.

And no matter how many times you insist it is a bug and you were powerless before it. If this event was that important to you, and it seems like it was, you should take a little responsibility for preparing yourself to purchase tickets.

I go to every pay event, and yet even so before RTCF do you know what I did? I almost got married. (dodged a bullet!) I went through all the steps except the final confirmation to buy a wedding package to make sure I had the box office process figured out and would be as fast as possible. No one told me to do this, no one posted this advice as I am doing now (and did in the ensuing arguments post the RTCF releases). I took it as my own responsibility to make sure I was prepared.

I know my reputation as a Simu cheerleader who never complains or criticizes them about anything might lead you to disregard my remarks, but I merely call it as I see it. In this case, I would attribute most of the fault to the players.

>I'm going to have to agree with Virilneus
-Wyrom

Always a good decision, welcome to the dark side. We have the best desserts.

>>Opinion based arguments have no value in a fact based argument

Unless you have the requirements document for the website, your argument that it is a bug is indeed an opinion based argument.

I've played for a long time and I've been to a lot of events. I will say I don't remember the bug, maybe it's because I always test links for limited tickets and play around with it beforehand and have always managed. This time, had it not been for Sagoth I might not have gotten my ticket. He told me to click the D when I asked him. I came directly home from work and had a downed router and got on late.

As far as customer service, Wyrom I think gives excellent customer service. He isn't arrogant, he seems to really care about his job and the people playing the game. Although perhaps a sign up fiasco without a security check, even RTCF showed he really tried to allow everyone, not just premium, a chance at tickets. Bashing him is not bashing Simu. He does not own the website and it is not his responsibility. Writing feedback would probably be a better solution.

Perhaps next time they should have the words "click the title of the event for tickets" instead of no tickets available. Nothing is ever perfect, and I am sorry so many were waiting and never even got a chance. Simu needs to fix their antiquated website, that isn't Wyrom's job.


Velvette

>>What I expect from good CS is a company representative to acknowledge the problem, indicate remorse or at least sympathy that the problem exists, indicate that they are going to try to take care of the problem, and a promise to follow up either way. That simply didn't happen here. So I am unhappy with the fact that I couldn't attempt to buy a ticket because the website didn't update. I'm even more unhappy with the seeming lack of official response and that's NOT a knock on Wyrom so much as it is a knock on Simu. I've played this game for a long time, since 1996, and I am well aware of Simu's generally terrible CS. That doesn't mean I'm just going to accept that the CS is always going to be terrible; I will continue to expect good CS for as long as I am a player.


So basically he did everything but offer you sympathy or remorse because of the issue. Looks like he hit most of your requirements for good CS. Clearly, in the future Wyrom you need to apologize for everything. Do remember that.



>>No matter how many times you try to argue back and forth, not matter how many POINTS you try to make, not matter how many times you try to ignore the baseline facts, they will not go away just because you want them to, and want to be right. The baseline facts are that NOT EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT THE BUG, in fact, MOST people didn't know about the bug. Saying it's been around for years, means NOTHING, saying that it's happens at most of the previous big ticket events, means NOTHING. Most people haven't gone to a big ticket event, most people haven't run into this problem before, most people haven't read previous bit ticket event forums. PERIOD There was NO reason for anyone, sitting there, refreshing the page, where it said there are no tickets available, to look anywhere else for tickets. This was extremely unfair for the majority of people trying to buy tickets. The other fact so many of you are trying to ignore, is that the site has a bug. . . it IS a mistake. . . no matter how long it's been there, no matter how often they point out the mistake AFTER the fact, no matter how many times they say their sorry for it, AFTER tickets have been sold out, and so many people didn't even get a CHANCE to buy tickts. This is a SIMU mistake, that they have not corrected for years, it was not made common knowledge before the tickets went for sale. They have caused anger by choosing not to fix, or announce this bug, so that it didn't effect people. They should find some way to compensate for THEIR mistakes.

Why should they compensate for their mistake? While it caused some confusion clearly at least 100 people managed to overcome this obstacle that you didn't. Are you kidding about no reason people should look anywhere else? Why, for ANY reason, would someone not be at the SIGN UP NOW page to buy their tickets when the time hit? Claim a little responsibility yourself here. Hell, I was even overcautious because I remember how quickly RCTF tickets sold. I kept three browsers open to the SIGN UP page of each of the runs I wanted to join so when the time came I could tab between and catch the one that was still open. That's called preparation.

>>After all the years this has been a problem, no one ever considered to put something simple like that?
Show me the threads (aside from Wyrom's own post about a discussion over it in 2006) where its been discussed as an issue.

>>I've played for a long time and I've been to a lot of events. I will say I don't remember the bug, maybe it's because I always test links for limited tickets and play around with it beforehand and have always managed. This time, had it not been for Sagoth I might not have gotten my ticket. He told me to click the D when I asked him. I came directly home from work and had a downed router and got on late.

This. She tests links prior to ticket sales. She also talks to people. She IMed me as well and we talked a bit about the captcha and our frenzy clicking of pictures and going "wait what?"


If you want to be angry you didn't get a ticket, I understand that. Its frustrating when you don't get what you want.

>>You're essentially complaining because you show up at 5:01 and a business is closed, their hours say they're closed, but the manager hasn't yet flipped the little sign in the window yet to say it is closed vs open and you demand a free hamburger.

I think a better analogy to this would be having a store open with limited doorbuster sales at 9:00pm. Signage and everything is on the front door of the building, hours are there, but the door remains locked and the closed sign stays up as the clock strikes 9. No employees show up to open the door and let the rush of customers through because they are over at a side entrance opening those doors up first. Eventually the workers figure that they'll get to the front door but by the time they do all the limited items are gone. Would the customers who waited at that front entrance and were unaware of a side entrance have something legitimate to complain about? I would say so.

I think Ryvicke should be asked to post a How-to guide before the next limited ticketed event. This thread reminded me of the same confusion at RtCF.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?81602-How-to-get-a-ticket-to-RtCF

Granted, this was more about how to quickly get a ticket, he didn't actually have the screenshots for steps 1 and 2 of how to get to the signup page.


Lochiven


PS Don't click if you are offended by references to Abrahamic religions or freedom.

<<So basically he did everything but offer you sympathy or remorse because of the issue. Looks like he hit most of your requirements for good CS. Clearly, in the future Wyrom you need to apologize for everything. Do remember that.>>

Maybe you spent too much time on the PC and therefore have forgotten how to craft an argument based on fact, but that is absolutely not what happened. Perhaps a timeline is in order.

12/5/13 9:00pm EST: website doesn't work correctly; I do not get a ticket

12/6/13 12:25am EST: I post saying that I'm unhappy.

12/7/13 1:09pm EST: Wyrom posts saying, "There is no face slot."
12/7/13 1:41pm EST: Wyrom posts saying, "Those take a pin ... worn slot."
12/7/13 9:11pm EST: Wyrom posts saying, "This mask isn't a helm..."
12/7/13 9:12pm EST: Wyrom posts saying, "I don't foresee another DMC anytime soon."

12/7/13 10:43pm EST: I post saying, "I can't say I'm surprised, but I am seriously disappointed with the lack of response to what is evidently a known bug that affected multiple players. Hey, Simu, want to know why people say you have terrible customer service and quit the game as a result? Here's an example."

NOTE, PLEASE, the total lack of official response one way or the other to my post. It was only AFTER I posted the second time that this occurred:

12/7/13 10:48pm EST: Wyrom posts saying, "The issue is being looked into to see if there is anything we can do about getting the one link to open up on time with the other two links.

I'm not sure why you're railing the issue given all the facts, or claiming poor customer service, when I've been responding as best as I can."

So, Riend, I did not receive ANY response to my post, which does not hit ANY of my requirements for good CS. It was only after I said, "Hey, I am disappointed by the total lack of Simu's response to this issue" that I got a response from Wyrom. And, as previously discussed, Wyrom's response (which I did not see prior to my initial post), was inadequate for several reasons.

You want to paint me as a whiner? Go right ahead. I'm not a whiner; I am talking about something that obviously needs to be discussed because there is at least one player who quit the game over it. Maybe Simu doesn't care about whether people leave the game. If I was Simu, I sure would.

>You chose to sit at the Events page. NOT the sign-up page for a ticket, you're telling me that it never occurred to you to figure out how the site actually works prior to buying a ticket?

because the link we always took to get to the sign-up page did not exist.

>I think a better analogy to this would be having a store open with limited doorbuster sales at 9:00pm. Signage and everything is on the front door of the building, hours are there, but the door remains locked and the closed sign stays up as the clock strikes 9. No employees show up to open the door and let the rush of customers through because they are over at a side entrance opening those doors up first. Eventually the workers figure that they'll get to the front door but by the time they do all the limited items are gone. Would the customers who waited at that front entrance and were unaware of a side entrance have something legitimate to complain about? I would say so.

Except this wasn't a side door. Lets be clear, the 3 or 4 people up in arms here who got confused about which page to refresh are vastly outnumbered by the 100 tickets sold.

To slightly tweak your analogy 4 people sit at the mall entrance waiting it to open there is a sign on the door that says "Pottery Barn is having a special sale in the mall today at 9", not realizing the doors are open and unlocked and they merely need to go through them. 100 people sit inside the mall at the entrance to Pottery Barn, waiting until 9:00 when the Pottery Barn sale on handcrafted fair trade status symbols opens. At 9:00 those 100 people go in and shop. At 9:05 the 4 people at the mall entrance in the cold finally try the door, realize it had been open this whole time, march to Pottery Barn and get indignant with the overwork sales associates because no one told them they were queued up in the wrong place and why couldn't they have sent someone to the front door of the mall to change the sign that said "today at 9" to "right now!"

Meanwhile, the 100 people who have shopped at a mall before are staring and silently wondering "Why didn't anyone try the door?"

>The people that were waiting at the main entrance see that sign and try the door only to find it locked (no link), so wait for it to be unlocked.

There was no locked door here sir. There were two links to get you to the page you needed to go, the icon, and the title, both were working the entire time. I don't know if you're an expert computer user, an amateur, or secretly Bill Gates, but navigation through clicking on icons and titles is not some revolutionary thing. All of us should be used to it.

And certainly, we all make mistakes, and if one were to make the mistake of not bothering to even try to click those two links, they shouldn't get indignant about it. Call it a lesson learned.

I think we've definitely drilled the issue home. So I think it's time to close up on this discussion, as I can see it moving to personal attacks soon.

---

~Wyrom, SGM
Premium
Platinum
Promotions

So, I've read through these threads, and I might have missed it, but were there any hints given about these two items?

a rounded black cobblestone painted with a pair of golden feline eyes
a weathered leather coin pouch stitched with strands of veniom thread

One would hope the cat eyes means call familiar but it might have something to do with the cat goddess. No hints that I've seen but the possibilities are endless.
Velvette