and that fine example is just one of many reasons why I will never put a new character into a guild so long as I play this game.

Unless of course I'm drunk, paralyzed and can do nothing except manipulate my computer with my mind. Then I would do guild work just so I wasn't bored to death drooling at the wall.

:D

Senglent and his wayward kin.

Dree says, "All done with that task? Great!" Dree checks his clipboard, "This gives you 6 Training Points, leaving you 1 points shy of earning your next rank."

>ask dree about train in alchemy
You ask Dree for an assignment in General Alchemy.

Dree assays you with a critical eye and says, "Let's find you something to do to earn a rank in General Alchemy." Dree rubs his chin thoughtfully, then continues, "Practice makes perfect! Work on making solutions that require infusing mana as part of their creation process. Each completed solution using INFUSE will count as one repetition. Make sure the recipes you use are a challenge for you." Dree also adds, " Repeat this 10 times ."

---

That had happened to me so many times I could have screamed. And when I was doing alchemy the training recipe for most of the higher level stuff required 6, SIX elements of fire. SIX!

>Zizzle sighs.

>Zizzle says, "Alas, I may still pick up my cauldron again, if I can remember where I put it..."

>Zizzle asks, "The question still stands though. Are there any active Guildmasters in the Wizard Guild?"

--Zizzle

Don't get me started. I appreciate the effort on the part of the staff who design everything we have here, but sometimes I just really disagree with some of the choices they've made. Alchemy is on the list for obvious reasons. Very few players have anything nice to say about this system, and I suspect that the few who do are the ones who have already suffered through it and can now reflect back on it as an "experience" (as in something they will thankfully never have to experience again!).

The comment about how much elemental fire is required to complete a single task is making me a little angry here. Was it really so difficult to consider the realities we face here in GS when designing this system? Work with me here. We have a dead economy, strangled by a terrible player shop system. So you want me to go out and farm up 60 elemental fire just to complete a single task of which many are required simply to advance a single rank in alchemy?

Alright. Fine. Now explain to me how you thought that would be fun and engaging for the player? It's like a bad joke! Just make it less frustrating already. It's not like alchemy offers players anything extraordinarily useful. And even if it did, are we currently drowning in skilled alchemists to meet the surging demand for...does anybody even know what can be produced with alchemy so we can buy it? LoL

~Taverkin

I just started playing my wizard again after a 10 year hiatus and I agree with both of you. I was excited at first to discover that alchemy was a skill that wizards could do; however, I quickly learned that alchemy is tedious, boring, expensive and solitary. I keep my amunet on just for company when I'm in the guild. Oh and let's not forget the extremely annoying 1 point left to gain a rank (that happens more times than not) and then you get the LIST so you can travel all over the world to obtain that 1 point!

The only reason I do it is that for RP reasons I think a wizard should spend some time researching and working with alchemy and related things. Also I just converted her to a pure because I think that is more in line with what a wizard should be too. (Of course now she is a wimp but I guess that goes with the territory.)

At this point I'm not happy with the old girl and am thinking of converting back to a warmage.

Dreamwever

>>At this point I'm not happy with the old girl and am thinking of converting back to a warmage.<<

The only way to go :)

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

My wizard is Level 53 and has 200 mana so mana isn't really a problem. AS and DS are a problem though. Without getting into too much detail because this should probably be over on the "so you want to be a wizard" board I know of one major thing I did wrong and that was to put 20+ TPs into all of the lores. Ten years ago this was going to be important but it's not relevant now.

I'll have to wait until May to convert again unless I decide to get rid of the lores little by little over the next five months. In May I'll post my skills and stats over on the other board for some sage advice from you two. Seems like you both have very viable training for both sides of the spectrum.

Thanks for your response. It is most appreciated.

Dreamwever

Don't get me started. I appreciate the effort on the part of the staff who design everything we have here, but sometimes I just really disagree with some of the choices they've made. Alchemy is on the list for obvious reasons. Very few players have anything nice to say about this system, and I suspect that the few who do are the ones who have already suffered through it and can now reflect back on it as an "experience" (as in something they will thankfully never have to experience again!).

The comment about how much elemental fire is required to complete a single task is making me a little angry here. Was it really so difficult to consider the realities we face here in GS when designing this system? Work with me here. We have a dead economy, strangled by a terrible player shop system. So you want me to go out and farm up 60 elemental fire just to complete a single task of which many are required simply to advance a single rank in alchemy?

Alright. Fine. Now explain to me how you thought that would be fun and engaging for the player? It's like a bad joke! Just make it less frustrating already. It's not like alchemy offers players anything extraordinarily useful. And even if it did, are we currently drowning in skilled alchemists to meet the surging demand for...does anybody even know what can be produced with alchemy so we can buy it? LoL

~Taverkin

---

While I am not entirely disagreeing with you on many points. Many are very valid. However, I am not, nor do I look at alchemy as some long painful process. The process itself is rather simple really, provided you have the skill to create the items. The real pain part for most people is getting the necessary ingredients to make the items. Specifically, a certain TRAINING formula. And even that is not overly arduous for most formulas with some rare cases.

It still tickles me that I can, and MAY be able to make some rather useful items. It is only a matter of ingredient collection and saving them for a day when you have everything you need to create that nifty item. Or having people save the ingredients for the items they would like to have and seeking out an appropriately skilled alchemist to make them.

I think that if you only focus on the aspect of how much it "cost" you, and/or how much you can "make" off of it is not exactly the best way to look at it. I never went into alchemy so I could make silvers off of everybody. I never cared about how much silver it cost me either, or whether I could reimburse the cost of it by selling the results. Would be nice, but certainly not necessary.

What I am rather focused on is the health of the craft, and the guilds in general. Alchemy (with the exception of Sorcerers) was the only way a pure could be a member, and eventually achieve the title of Guildmaster. It was always more of a prestige thing. "I am a Guildmaster of the Wizards Guild", sounds better than "I am a MEMBER of the Wizards Guild." But either sounds LOADS better than, "I am NOT a member of the Wizards Guild."

Instead we have only one method for most pure guilds to achieve ANY ranking in it. That is sadly, only through alchemy which apparently isn't all that popular with most. Each guild needs some tricks, two or 3 additional disciplines would go a long way to ease members into the guild better. For instance, we have the nifty FLICK verb. It is a freebie verb for Wizards, and purely fluff. We need more of this kind of thing! Not every discipline has to have a mechanical or economical advantage.

It saddens me greatly that I find young wizards everywhere with zero interest, and/or zero ranks in the guild. Alchemy should only be a PART of it, not the ENTIRELY it. I'd start with enhancing the FLICK verb to something similar to slight of hand tricks in rogue's gambit, but with a bit more of a magical flare to it.

>flick 901 tome
>Zizzle flicks his right hand and a small static discharge crackles around his hand and suddenly he is hold a ancient yellow tome bound in leather with a small golden clasp!

--Zizzle

>>Pure wizards do alright, though. :P<<

Hah! OK, pure casting wizards can hunt fine about 99% of the time. But what about those pesky magic immune/resistant critters?

>> look
[Lich Citadel, Darkway]
The citadel opens up into a massive chamber, where shadows eerily shift from wall to wall. A low, humming sound reverberates from somewhere close by. You also see a plump horned frog and a glowing-eyed spirit golem.
Obvious exits: north, out
>
You feel at full magical power again.
>
A glowing-eyed spirit golem tries to ensnare you in its solid glaes arms!
AS: +450 vs DS: +533 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +59 = +4
A clean miss.
> incant 410
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a glowing-eyed spirit golem.
The spirit golem absorbs the power of your spell and begins to glow with power!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.<<

Oh noes! It's immune to elemental magic! Whatever shall I do??

>> stance offen
> cman feint
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
[Roll result: 150 (open d100: 86) Penalties: 0]
You feint low, the spirit golem buys the ruse and twists awkwardly to block the blow that never came!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> attack
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a glowing-eyed spirit golem!
AS: +390 vs DS: +276 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +43 = +202
... and hit for 42 points of damage!
Mighty blow cracks several ribs.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
> attack
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a glowing-eyed spirit golem!
AS: +390 vs DS: +276 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +47 = +206
... and hit for 37 points of damage!
Blow raises a welt on the spirit golem's left arm.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> attack
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a glowing-eyed spirit golem!
AS: +390 vs DS: +261 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +72 = +246
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Respectable shot to the back.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> attack
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a glowing-eyed spirit golem!
AS: +390 vs DS: +261 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +52 = +226
... and hit for 47 points of damage!
Bones in right arm crack.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
> attack
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a glowing-eyed spirit golem!
AS: +390 vs DS: +246 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +56 = +245
... and hit for 61 points of damage!
You ripped a chunk out of the spirit golem's left leg with that one.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
R> attack
You swing a perfect vultite maul at a glowing-eyed spirit golem!
AS: +390 vs DS: +192 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +45 = +288
... and hit for 68 points of damage!
Left hand mangled horribly.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the spirit golem's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
With a loud crash, the golem's form sags to the floor, its reptilian head finally freed from its monstrous glaes form.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.<<

Heh, and that was without symbol of courage, symbol of supremacy, and potion of bravery.




The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>I won't lie! I wish I could get rid of Vvrael destroyers!

Post cap training goal, gives you something to work towards on top of everything else.

Do both! The only thing likely to be deadlier than an elven archer-mage is a halfling archer-mage. Far exceeds the vulgar expression of the art through swinging a huge, misshapen lump of metal on the end of an oversized club. Very inelegant.

Strive!

Doug

Oh, I'd agree.

But, I'd also say, a wizard can be more than effective, too. Especially in the last third of the game.

Doug

>>But by 50-ish level one should be able to survive quite well as a pure Mage, sans engaging in melee. One could easily do so from as early as level 10-30 but learning to time the mana pulses in prime hunting areas is key to plentiful mana and fried minds. ;)<<

Oh, sure, you CAN easily cap as a pure mage, but ... how dull! ::yawns::

And it was a bit of an amusing mental exercise to try and maximize my training for manual combat (lots of earth lore, full weapon/CMan training, full PF etc.) while still maintaining a high level of magical skill. And it led to an appreciation of the MnE attack spells, since that is still my highest level spell circle. I have a raw MnE CS of 500; in OTF, 415 has proven to be devastating. Furthermore, guess what? I can also grab a runestaff and hurl bolts when necessary (somewhat lower bolt AS since I don't use 513, but still effective enough in most cases, since critter DS vs bolts is usually less than that vs weapons).

I haven't tried archer mage but I have had friends who went that route; from watching them in combat it sure seems effective. Different skill set, of course, since you will want to 2x perception and CM is less important.



The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>And after an elf's span here the only thing I can say with any certitude is -- there are absolutely no absolutes -- I think.<<

But ... can you say that absolutely?


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me