Hi. First off, I think this is an honest discussion worth happening. If the mods disagree, I guess that's the way it is, but I hope it's allowed since I always favor sincere discussion. So...
I was away from the game for something like a decade. Came back a few months ago. Loving what I'm seeing dev-wise, hating the wizard forums- to the point that it's making me consider re-icing my account. (I'm not trying to make "threats" here. Again, I just like honesty.) I also suspect that I'm the only one that feels this way, and a couple of lurkers have surfaced just to post they also feel this way. So I want to try this... (And maybe it's been tried before. I don't know, but I'm trying now.)
So if we're going to have this discussion, I'd ask that people try to be sincere and charitable. Try to assume the best motivations in others and try to leave the snark and sarcasm somewhere else. Also, keep in mind that plain text communication is hard and everything sounds meaner on the Internet. If I go out of my way look "nice", it's not because I'm trying to be condescending- it's because I'm trying to be clear where I'm coming from (and to remind myself how I should be acting.) Remember, we all have the common ground of being GS4 fans. :)
Anyway, I think part of the issue might be different views of what these forums should be for. Personally, I'd like it to be a place where we can geek out and talk about our little corner of this game we're all fans of- and even work with the GMs to help shape development direction. At least 1 competing vision seems to be seeing this a place to make as much noise as possible in the hopes of getting a specific dev change you want. That probably sounds more derogatory than it's meant- after all, that is a valid technique for getting customer satisfaction, especially from non-customer-focused companies. (Even if I personally don't think that's necessary here since GS devs seem to be very active in engaging directly with their customers.) And maybe others see it in a third way.
So I guess what I'm asking here is what do people want out of these forums as a social experience? If we want change, what do we think needs to change and how can we help it to happen? I've got some of my own views / ideas, but I won't include them in the starting post, since I don't want to bias the thread.
Also, if you think stuff like this is counter-productive or I'm part of the problem, you can tell me that too.
Let's try this and see where it goes. Because I really want this to be a friendly place that matches the game.
CURTIS
CURTIS
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 01:33 AM CDT
<<seeing this a place to make as much noise as possible in the hopes of getting a specific dev change you want
I wish there was a way to edit posts here, since I don't really like the way that reads looking back at it. I mean that (I think) some people view this as more of a place to drive things they want to change dev-wise, than a hangout.
I wanted to make that distinction, because even if people really want to emphasize the change-driving aspect, we can probably talk about ways to steer that in a more positive direction than it currently is.
I wish there was a way to edit posts here, since I don't really like the way that reads looking back at it. I mean that (I think) some people view this as more of a place to drive things they want to change dev-wise, than a hangout.
I wanted to make that distinction, because even if people really want to emphasize the change-driving aspect, we can probably talk about ways to steer that in a more positive direction than it currently is.
OM1E5GA
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 07:20 AM CDT
<I wish there was a way to edit posts here, since I don't really like the way that reads looking back at it. I mean that (I think) some people view this as more of a place to drive things they want to change dev-wise, than a hangout.>
Oh no you don't.... the way you stated it the first time was both more honest and accurate.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Oh no you don't.... the way you stated it the first time was both more honest and accurate.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KANDOR
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 09:28 AM CDT
Some suggestions, for anyone who will read them:
- Stay on-topic.
- Reply as it relates to the subject.
- If what you have to say is a tangent, explain it.
- Don't single someone out.
- Don't bother replying if someone singles you out.
- Don't attempt to justify yourself.
- Don't second-guess.
- Stay on-topic.
- Reply as it relates to the subject.
- If what you have to say is a tangent, explain it.
- Don't single someone out.
- Don't bother replying if someone singles you out.
- Don't attempt to justify yourself.
- Don't second-guess.
CURTIS
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 10:39 AM CDT
<<Oh no you don't.... the way you stated it the first time was both more honest and accurate.
In some ways, yes. But my point here is specifically not to make a thread attacking 1 or a couple of people. And I think people seeing this forum as a place to demand dev changes is a better way of describing the root issue- if someone takes that too far, that's another issue. And maybe one we should talk about, but it's a bit of a balancing act, since I really do want to avoid a thread that becomes about bashing specific people- since that's not my point. At least at this point, I'm trying to find common ground here.
In some ways, yes. But my point here is specifically not to make a thread attacking 1 or a couple of people. And I think people seeing this forum as a place to demand dev changes is a better way of describing the root issue- if someone takes that too far, that's another issue. And maybe one we should talk about, but it's a bit of a balancing act, since I really do want to avoid a thread that becomes about bashing specific people- since that's not my point. At least at this point, I'm trying to find common ground here.
CURTIS
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 10:58 AM CDT
Here's the goal of this thread- get a clear picture of what people want behavior-wise from these forums to end the apparently years-long smoldering dumpster fire. Then it's something to point to (both for players and GMs) when someone isn't acting like that. But the order is important there. People have a right to know and discuss what's expected of them, so social rules don't feel arbitrary.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 12:18 PM CDT
>I mean that (I think) some people view this as more of a place to drive things they want to change dev-wise, than a hangout.
Why would folders like "Developer's Corner" be for anything but dev talk?
If you're wanting to "hang out", there's a folder called "Social Forum" for that. You can also use the game you're paying $15-40 a month for for this purpose. It is a roleplaying game after all.
Worry more about the points being made instead of who said it or how they said it. Easier said than done, sure, but you'll thank yourself for it. And like you said, tone of voice doesn't translate well and people in general default to reading something someone else said in the most pissy tone possible. I'm guilty of it too at times.
~ Methais
Why would folders like "Developer's Corner" be for anything but dev talk?
If you're wanting to "hang out", there's a folder called "Social Forum" for that. You can also use the game you're paying $15-40 a month for for this purpose. It is a roleplaying game after all.
Worry more about the points being made instead of who said it or how they said it. Easier said than done, sure, but you'll thank yourself for it. And like you said, tone of voice doesn't translate well and people in general default to reading something someone else said in the most pissy tone possible. I'm guilty of it too at times.
~ Methais
LADYFLEUR
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 12:43 PM CDT
>Why would folders like "Developer's Corner" be for anything but dev talk?
Absolutely this. There's literally no point in wasting time posting on a forum instead of playing a game for which I'm paying than to point out areas that need change. I'm not here to participate in TSC style chat.
Things would be more productive if people focused on discussing the topic being discussed instead of what they feel about another player and their posting style or thinking they have the overreaching authority to lecture to people how to behave. Think about whether that is what you do to people you come across in real life. Further, it's explicitly against forum policy to flame someone about their posting style and Wyrom's post directive to stop with the personal snipes. If someone's post avoids you, ignore it. But if there's selective moderation going on, I'm absolutely going to speak up to defend myself against the one-sided slander that is always aimed only at me. That's a policy that is intolerable as a paying customer.
And no, as much as certain elements try to drive me and other post-cap pure wizards away, we aren't going anywhere. We've been paying for our characters for decades, not casually.
Absolutely this. There's literally no point in wasting time posting on a forum instead of playing a game for which I'm paying than to point out areas that need change. I'm not here to participate in TSC style chat.
Things would be more productive if people focused on discussing the topic being discussed instead of what they feel about another player and their posting style or thinking they have the overreaching authority to lecture to people how to behave. Think about whether that is what you do to people you come across in real life. Further, it's explicitly against forum policy to flame someone about their posting style and Wyrom's post directive to stop with the personal snipes. If someone's post avoids you, ignore it. But if there's selective moderation going on, I'm absolutely going to speak up to defend myself against the one-sided slander that is always aimed only at me. That's a policy that is intolerable as a paying customer.
And no, as much as certain elements try to drive me and other post-cap pure wizards away, we aren't going anywhere. We've been paying for our characters for decades, not casually.
LEAFIARA
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 01:14 PM CDT
I'll preface this by acknowledging that I have no stake at all in dev for post-cap pure wizards or even pre-cap pure wizards because my only wizard is a baby level 16 warmage...
As an absolute outsider to all of this, I honestly love reading the wizard forums, in-fighting and all. Everyone seems thoughtful and knowledgeable and there's a great variety of perspectives brought to the table; I could only wish that post-cap dev, which is the absolute top thing I'd love for GMs to be working on, stirred up even half as much interest and nonstop discussion from dedicated veteran players as the wizard forums do.
Hardly a week goes by that there aren't at least three points raised here that get me thinking about things in a new light--whether those things are wizards, bolts, CS, societies, enhancives, profession-to-profession comparisons, imbeddables, scrolls, post-cap, disablers, mana itself as a concept, parity, utility, permanent gear upgrades (enchanting and ensorcelling), flavor vs. function, or even other topics that I'm not remembering right now.
Whether you enjoy reading them or not, wizard discussions are objectively--and I don't use that word lightly--the most in-depth talks you're going to find here. And I think that's something to be embraced.
As an absolute outsider to all of this, I honestly love reading the wizard forums, in-fighting and all. Everyone seems thoughtful and knowledgeable and there's a great variety of perspectives brought to the table; I could only wish that post-cap dev, which is the absolute top thing I'd love for GMs to be working on, stirred up even half as much interest and nonstop discussion from dedicated veteran players as the wizard forums do.
Hardly a week goes by that there aren't at least three points raised here that get me thinking about things in a new light--whether those things are wizards, bolts, CS, societies, enhancives, profession-to-profession comparisons, imbeddables, scrolls, post-cap, disablers, mana itself as a concept, parity, utility, permanent gear upgrades (enchanting and ensorcelling), flavor vs. function, or even other topics that I'm not remembering right now.
Whether you enjoy reading them or not, wizard discussions are objectively--and I don't use that word lightly--the most in-depth talks you're going to find here. And I think that's something to be embraced.
DOUG
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 01:14 PM CDT
First, let me say that I value this discussion - significantly.
>>different views of what these forums should be for
In my view, these forums are for the sharing of information. I like the 'geek out' comment, what else describes what we do here so well? But - it's the sharing side of that geeking out that I hold out as important, personally.
>>if you think stuff like this is counter-productive
No sharing is ever counter-productive. Value of the sharing will differ by individual, of course.
>>KANDOR's suggested expectations
I like this list. Two things: 'victim' and 'human'.
'Human' - This is an area I struggle in - and perhaps I am causing more of the struggle than I realize. I am 'human'. That means a lot of things. It means I can get in my own way based on how I order my principles (yep, been there, done that). It means I can respond negatively when there's no seeming reason for it (my experiences are different, and it's hard to account for all experiences everywhere but still be passionate about what the topic is). The offsetting value of 'human' is 'tolerance'. I try to be tolerant of others (remember, I'm 'human' though!) I try to actively support (recognize and encourage) the tolerance of others. And I'm human enough and principled enough (getting in my own way) of really disliking and not being able to set aside what I feel is gross intolerance in others. I don't intend to support 'intolerance' in any fashion - and not saying something about it is just the same as supporting it, in my personal view.
'Victim' - I take no pleasure in reviewing information provided by a community member from the position of being the 'victim'. This is significantly harder to find ways to deal with than 'human'. 'Human' (like the suggested baseline 'love for GS') is something we all are. 'Victim' is not something we all are, and I find the surrendering of one's self-destiny to be second only to the concept that being the 'victim' somehow seems to increase the importance or relevance of an idea or position.
I try to address both of these shortcomings in my own interactions by a simple method. My method is something that I'd suggest be considered for addition to KANDOR's list. It's fairly simple - treat each conversation as if it were 'in-person'. A significant portion of the 'bad' that we see here on the forums (yes, my own included - I'm 'human' remember) wouldn't be acceptable in a face-to-face conversation. At some point, there wouldn't even be a face-to-face conversation in many of these cases.
We will sometimes use the 'enforced continuance' of the dialog here in the forums to say things we never would get a 'real world' opportunity to otherwise express. That reliance on the 'enforced continuance' is not a good thing, in my view.
TL;DR Suggest adding: Treat each conversation as though you had to look into the eyes of the person or people you're sharing with. And remember - we're not always going to be successful in all this, for reasons beyond listing and different for each of us. Think 'human' and 'tolerance'. But don't be a 'victim'.
Doug
>>different views of what these forums should be for
In my view, these forums are for the sharing of information. I like the 'geek out' comment, what else describes what we do here so well? But - it's the sharing side of that geeking out that I hold out as important, personally.
>>if you think stuff like this is counter-productive
No sharing is ever counter-productive. Value of the sharing will differ by individual, of course.
>>KANDOR's suggested expectations
I like this list. Two things: 'victim' and 'human'.
'Human' - This is an area I struggle in - and perhaps I am causing more of the struggle than I realize. I am 'human'. That means a lot of things. It means I can get in my own way based on how I order my principles (yep, been there, done that). It means I can respond negatively when there's no seeming reason for it (my experiences are different, and it's hard to account for all experiences everywhere but still be passionate about what the topic is). The offsetting value of 'human' is 'tolerance'. I try to be tolerant of others (remember, I'm 'human' though!) I try to actively support (recognize and encourage) the tolerance of others. And I'm human enough and principled enough (getting in my own way) of really disliking and not being able to set aside what I feel is gross intolerance in others. I don't intend to support 'intolerance' in any fashion - and not saying something about it is just the same as supporting it, in my personal view.
'Victim' - I take no pleasure in reviewing information provided by a community member from the position of being the 'victim'. This is significantly harder to find ways to deal with than 'human'. 'Human' (like the suggested baseline 'love for GS') is something we all are. 'Victim' is not something we all are, and I find the surrendering of one's self-destiny to be second only to the concept that being the 'victim' somehow seems to increase the importance or relevance of an idea or position.
I try to address both of these shortcomings in my own interactions by a simple method. My method is something that I'd suggest be considered for addition to KANDOR's list. It's fairly simple - treat each conversation as if it were 'in-person'. A significant portion of the 'bad' that we see here on the forums (yes, my own included - I'm 'human' remember) wouldn't be acceptable in a face-to-face conversation. At some point, there wouldn't even be a face-to-face conversation in many of these cases.
We will sometimes use the 'enforced continuance' of the dialog here in the forums to say things we never would get a 'real world' opportunity to otherwise express. That reliance on the 'enforced continuance' is not a good thing, in my view.
TL;DR Suggest adding: Treat each conversation as though you had to look into the eyes of the person or people you're sharing with. And remember - we're not always going to be successful in all this, for reasons beyond listing and different for each of us. Think 'human' and 'tolerance'. But don't be a 'victim'.
Doug
LADYFLEUR
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 01:23 PM CDT
The most productive discussions we've had are where we focus on discussing topics, factually and logically. The end.
Usually someone eventually comes along to try to drown that out with noise, lecturing about posting style or personal snipes/jabs at a particular player, that has no place on the forum according to both forum policy and Wyrom's post explicitly prohibiting it. That is what contributes to most of the unpleasantness that everyone else has to read. I don't care whether someone thinks they're "lecturing", "coaching", or whatever. We're equal paying customers.
Another poster has no superiority or authority to tell me how to behave. Trying to do the forum moderator's job for them just stirs up drama. However, when that directive isn't enforced and selective moderation occurs, I'm absolutely going to speak up for myself because I am not a victim.
Things would be much more productive on every level if instead of attacking what someone says as "bias" or "hyperbole", an honest attempt is made at seeking clarification if something doesn't ring true. I doubt many people waste their time here posting about things they don't believe in. If what is being discussed is actually treated with respect and assumed to come from a place of good intentions rather than deliberate misinformation, it would be much more positive for everyone.
Usually someone eventually comes along to try to drown that out with noise, lecturing about posting style or personal snipes/jabs at a particular player, that has no place on the forum according to both forum policy and Wyrom's post explicitly prohibiting it. That is what contributes to most of the unpleasantness that everyone else has to read. I don't care whether someone thinks they're "lecturing", "coaching", or whatever. We're equal paying customers.
Another poster has no superiority or authority to tell me how to behave. Trying to do the forum moderator's job for them just stirs up drama. However, when that directive isn't enforced and selective moderation occurs, I'm absolutely going to speak up for myself because I am not a victim.
Things would be much more productive on every level if instead of attacking what someone says as "bias" or "hyperbole", an honest attempt is made at seeking clarification if something doesn't ring true. I doubt many people waste their time here posting about things they don't believe in. If what is being discussed is actually treated with respect and assumed to come from a place of good intentions rather than deliberate misinformation, it would be much more positive for everyone.
LADYFLEUR
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
05/31/2017 01:29 PM CDT
>I could only wish that post-cap dev, which is the absolute top thing I'd love for GMs to be working on, stirred up even half as much interest and nonstop discussion from dedicated veteran players as the wizard forums do.
I absolutely agree with Leafiara that post-cap dev is the absolute top thing I'd love for GMs to be working on for the whole game, after the glaring hole in the post-cap pure wizard's single target quality of life and reliable killing is addressed. What I want above all else is more positive development for everyone in the game, not tearing things down or introducing tedium to maintain the status quo in a different way. I seek quality of life changes instead of change for the sake of change. By the time one is post-cap, things are a bonus, not a necessity. Everyone is "viable" at level 10. I'd love for everyone to have more real options in the way they grow their character. Post-cap is absolutely the time to have more of your cake, without so much of the sacrifice.
I absolutely agree with Leafiara that post-cap dev is the absolute top thing I'd love for GMs to be working on for the whole game, after the glaring hole in the post-cap pure wizard's single target quality of life and reliable killing is addressed. What I want above all else is more positive development for everyone in the game, not tearing things down or introducing tedium to maintain the status quo in a different way. I seek quality of life changes instead of change for the sake of change. By the time one is post-cap, things are a bonus, not a necessity. Everyone is "viable" at level 10. I'd love for everyone to have more real options in the way they grow their character. Post-cap is absolutely the time to have more of your cake, without so much of the sacrifice.
SHERWINJ
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/02/2017 12:57 PM CDT
I really like seeing this thread. It seems beneficial.
What is really odd to me is that some of the time on the forums it feels like it is a competition.
There is no Winning at gemstone. Characters going on and on. There is no better only other.
I have had my Mage configured a bunch of different ways. Some were more fun.
The one I settled on felt more appropriate for the character.
Most of the old Mages know each other. We always share tips and ideas about how to train in the game.
Speaking for myself, I would help any mage that asked me for help.
The forums should feel the same. A little listening and respect for each other will go a long way.
One thing I have been feeling now well past-post cap, is that it doesn't matter to my character what they do to spells.
He can hunt anywhere in the world and in invasions. I gave up enchanting years ago so new water stuff not interesting.
What more am I hoping for? A way for my character to keep evolving and having fun.
back from a very long sleep
Rtune's meat bag
CANDIDE
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/02/2017 02:24 PM CDT
>The forums should feel the same. A little listening and respect for each other will go a long way.
And at the same time, people should stop inserting emotions into someone else's post that wasn't there to begin with.
Welcome back. We're trying to get fixed in the dev corner folder. Need halp.
~ Methais
And at the same time, people should stop inserting emotions into someone else's post that wasn't there to begin with.
Welcome back. We're trying to get fixed in the dev corner folder. Need halp.
~ Methais
SHERWINJ
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/02/2017 06:04 PM CDT
Thanks for the welcome!
My intent was not to insert emotion.
I was trying to agree with Curtis that the forums should feel more like the game.
Will try to do better :)
What's wrong in dev folder?
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/03/2017 03:06 AM CDT
>What's wrong in dev folder?
Nothing's actually wrong, we're just tossing around ideas for a spell intended to fill the gap that the ELR nerfs left is with, as dev appears to be actively interested in making it happen.
~ Methais
Nothing's actually wrong, we're just tossing around ideas for a spell intended to fill the gap that the ELR nerfs left is with, as dev appears to be actively interested in making it happen.
~ Methais
KEITHOBAD
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/04/2017 06:18 PM CDT
The wizard forums can be snarky at times, but at least there's action. The rogues have so little going on because GMs basically completely ignore the class. It's a ghost town. The last time anything substantive changed was... 2012.
True, a lot of the "action" is people raging against the 'recent' slew of wizard nerfs and randomized buffing, but at least it's interesting.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/05/2017 05:58 PM CDT
>The rogues have so little going on because GMs basically completely ignore the class. It's a ghost town. The last time anything substantive changed was... 2012.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a constant uproar for years over there about the state of lockpicking.
~ Methais
I'm surprised there hasn't been a constant uproar for years over there about the state of lockpicking.
~ Methais
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/05/2017 08:36 PM CDT
>> I'm surprised there hasn't been a constant uproar for years over there about the state of lockpicking.
??? I may be the odd man out but I enjoy lock picking in the current system. What are you expecting the uproar to be about?
Biggest complaint top of mind is around the experience penalty when using 403.
-- Robert
??? I may be the odd man out but I enjoy lock picking in the current system. What are you expecting the uproar to be about?
Biggest complaint top of mind is around the experience penalty when using 403.
-- Robert
VERSIN
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/06/2017 01:01 PM CDT
The experience penalty is a major downside and absolutely should be changed.
The other major issue is the availability of the NPC locksmith.
The other major issue is the availability of the NPC locksmith.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/06/2017 01:43 PM CDT
>Biggest complaint top of mind is around the experience penalty when using 403.
The exp penalty as well as RT issues that typically result in people using the NPC locksmith because they don't want to wait all that time to have their boxes picked.
But mostly the exp issue. Both are major contributors to the overall lack of locksmiths.
On topic: 407 is cool
~ Methais
The exp penalty as well as RT issues that typically result in people using the NPC locksmith because they don't want to wait all that time to have their boxes picked.
But mostly the exp issue. Both are major contributors to the overall lack of locksmiths.
On topic: 407 is cool
~ Methais
KRAKII
Re: State of discussion of wizard forums
06/08/2017 04:17 PM CDT
Hell, I thought the GMs didn't read over there because all the Rogues were just too good at hiding from them. :)
