Cross post from Magic Systems. Please post thoughts/ideas there.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Magic%20Spells%60Systems/Magic%20Systems/view?beginning_post_id=1020
* Disclaimer - Yup, I realize we've had CHANNELED versions of spells for quite some time. Had I been someone who actively (ever?) made use of CHANNEL then no doubt I would have thought to post something along these lines at that time instead of now. *
With the slew of new spells / spell versions being released via the ELR, I feel we are making the basic mechanics of casting a spell needlessly more confusing and complicated. My primary complaint is focused on combat spells where we need to be able to consider the current situation, determine our course of action/identify desired target(s), and execute all within a 3 second window. Many of the new spell abilities available via the ELR now require that an additional element be considered, which syntax do I need to use to CAST the desired spell effect.
- Minor Acid now requires CAST for the single target version and EVOKE for the ball version.
- Immolation is proposed to require CAST for one effect and EVOKE for another.
- Cone of Elements now has a totally unique syntax where we need to type CAST ELEMENT AT target
- Lot's more examples but you get the general idea.
While EVOKE, INCANT, CHANNEL, CAST ELEMENT, etc. are fine as alternative ways of casting a desired spell effect, I would strongly suggest and encourage that we continue to honor PREP / CAST as the standard way to cast any spell (combat spell?) by allowing for the various spell versions / choices to be made up front when the spell is being prepared (basically selecting the spell version to cast in the same way that you would select which spell to cast).
Examples as follows:
*To cast an acid bolt
PREP 904
CAST AT target
*To cast an acid ball (effectively a different spell)
PREP 904 EVOKE
CAST AT target
*To cast the LIGHTNING version of Cone of Elements
PREP 518 LIGHTNING
CAST AT target
*To cast the FIRE version of Cone of Elements
PREP 518 FIRE
CAST AT target
I would suggest that we make this style of PREP / CAST available for CHANNELed versions of spells as well.
The primary benefit to this proposal is that it maintains a simple standard for how all spells can be cast. It's easy understand, PREP the desired spell/spell version and CAST it, and it's easy to remember what you need to type in the heat of battle when you want to cast your spell at a given target (because it can always be CAST AT). It also doesn't take away from any newer/different ways of casting spells for people that prefer to use them.
I'd appreciate hearing other peoples thoughts on the above as well as any other suggestions for keeping spell casting simple while still allowing for new and exciting developments/expansions to spells down the road.
-- Robert aka Faulkil
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
PEREGRINEFALCON
XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 04:46 AM CDT
ARIETTA
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 05:36 AM CDT
<<<I'd appreciate hearing other peoples thoughts on the above as well as any other suggestions for keeping spell casting simple while still allowing for new and exciting developments/expansions to spells down the road.>>>
I share your confusion. It had been a while since I had time to play. I found myself almost helpless trying to figure out how to cast my spells. I'd missed the post where Disintegrate (705) was changed to evoke. Same with Hand of Tonis. Then just when I thought I'd figured it out, I tried to evoke Web Bolt...nope, that didn't work!
As I just posted over in the sorcerer forum, there's no consistency. Casting has become quite contrived. I don't mind the complexity, really...but the inconsistency is a problem. With so many options, now...we need some logical way of sorting out which commands to use.
I think your idea about moving the options to the "prep" line is a good one. However, I have a feeling that might not be possible because of the way "prep" works. "Prep" already parses the command line to look for spell numbers, mnemonics, or even the full name of the spell. A GM can set me straight if I'm wrong, but I suspect messing with the "prep" line might not be feasible.
My own suggestion is a bit simpler. I think it would be helpful to make evoke work with all bolt/ball spells, whether or not it provided any special abilities. In other words, if I prep minor fire and "evoke" it at something, it would work just the same as if I "cast" it. It would be no less confusing for figuring out what does what, but at least it would work. The consistency would be there.
My other suggestion would be to make "evoke" default to hostile targets, rather than the player. This would differentiate it from "cast". It still wouldn't be as slick as "incant"...but it would be an improvement.
~ GtG
I share your confusion. It had been a while since I had time to play. I found myself almost helpless trying to figure out how to cast my spells. I'd missed the post where Disintegrate (705) was changed to evoke. Same with Hand of Tonis. Then just when I thought I'd figured it out, I tried to evoke Web Bolt...nope, that didn't work!
As I just posted over in the sorcerer forum, there's no consistency. Casting has become quite contrived. I don't mind the complexity, really...but the inconsistency is a problem. With so many options, now...we need some logical way of sorting out which commands to use.
I think your idea about moving the options to the "prep" line is a good one. However, I have a feeling that might not be possible because of the way "prep" works. "Prep" already parses the command line to look for spell numbers, mnemonics, or even the full name of the spell. A GM can set me straight if I'm wrong, but I suspect messing with the "prep" line might not be feasible.
My own suggestion is a bit simpler. I think it would be helpful to make evoke work with all bolt/ball spells, whether or not it provided any special abilities. In other words, if I prep minor fire and "evoke" it at something, it would work just the same as if I "cast" it. It would be no less confusing for figuring out what does what, but at least it would work. The consistency would be there.
My other suggestion would be to make "evoke" default to hostile targets, rather than the player. This would differentiate it from "cast". It still wouldn't be as slick as "incant"...but it would be an improvement.
~ GtG
KRAKII
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 08:59 AM CDT
In addition, this information should be passed along to the "spell hand" window of your Front End, so that you know you have Cone of Fire prepped (just in case a pocket of gas gets generated suddenly), or Cone of Lightning loaded (if a water elemental does something wet).
Also, of course, to know whether you have Major Acid or Cone of Steam or ....
Also, of course, to know whether you have Major Acid or Cone of Steam or ....
KEITHOBAD
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 10:57 AM CDT
Not really sure why you want two identical threads, Pere, but I think the responses in the other thread have the right idea. Get rid of prep/cast entirely and move to a 1-line format.
<verb> <spell> <optional target, defaults to incant-style>
Evoke 905 (would default to incant style targeting of the evoke version of 905)
cast 710 open (open version of 710)
Cast 901 kobold (I think the effect is rather obvious)
This would simplify the system without losing any functionality that I can tell. The one coding headache this creates is needing to have a split between buffs which auto-target the caster and combat spells which auto-target hostile npcs. Although I guess incant already does this so that shouldn't be too bad.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 05:11 PM CDT
>> Not really sure why you want two identical threads, Pere,...
It was a cross post for visibility and the request was that folks post in the other thread which I linked.
Best laid plans and all that...
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
It was a cross post for visibility and the request was that folks post in the other thread which I linked.
Best laid plans and all that...
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
KEITHOBAD
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 06:35 PM CDT
Well if it makes you feel better, the issue is acknowledged and they're working on doing something with flags. Sounds rather awkward to me, but we'll just have to wait and see.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 06:41 PM CDT
>> Well if it makes you feel better, the issue is acknowledged and they're working on doing something with flags. Sounds rather awkward to me, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Sounds like I'm just going to have to write a macro that can figure out what I'm supposed to type based on the spell I want to cast. I don't really see flags as handling the issue since we now have a mix of spells with different casting syntax.
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
Sounds like I'm just going to have to write a macro that can figure out what I'm supposed to type based on the spell I want to cast. I don't really see flags as handling the issue since we now have a mix of spells with different casting syntax.
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
KEITHOBAD
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/16/2015 07:39 PM CDT
For anyone who is uncomfortable writing scripts, I put this together which will keep you from evoking your face off with either 705 or 505.
I called it .evoke and you can use it either of two ways:
1) Without a target. Just ".evoke 505" and it'll switch stances and cast 505 at whatever you're currently targeting. This is how I use it, put in a key macro /x.evoke 505/r
2) Putting a target in. So you could use ".evoke 505 second orc" and that should also work.
Hopefully it's useful to someone while we wait for the GM's solution :)
IF_1 goto BEGIN
echo Usage: .evoke <spell#> <target(optional)>
EXIT
BEGIN:
put prep %1
SHIFT
IF_1 goto TARGETEDCAST
put stance off
put evoke target
put stance gua
EXIT
TARGETEDCAST:
put stance off
put evoke %0
put stance gua
I called it .evoke and you can use it either of two ways:
1) Without a target. Just ".evoke 505" and it'll switch stances and cast 505 at whatever you're currently targeting. This is how I use it, put in a key macro /x.evoke 505/r
2) Putting a target in. So you could use ".evoke 505 second orc" and that should also work.
Hopefully it's useful to someone while we wait for the GM's solution :)
IF_1 goto BEGIN
echo Usage: .evoke <spell#> <target(optional)>
EXIT
BEGIN:
put prep %1
SHIFT
IF_1 goto TARGETEDCAST
put stance off
put evoke target
put stance gua
EXIT
TARGETEDCAST:
put stance off
put evoke %0
put stance gua
MIGHTONS
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/18/2015 02:20 AM CDT
I agree that having EVOKE be implemented similarly to INCANT is the best option.
In the mean time, the workaround is to replace "incant xxx\r" in your macros with "prep xxx\revoke target\r". This usage has the same auto-targeting functions as incant: if your target is clear, it chooses an appropriate one for you (not yourself for attack spells).
In the mean time, the workaround is to replace "incant xxx\r" in your macros with "prep xxx\revoke target\r". This usage has the same auto-targeting functions as incant: if your target is clear, it chooses an appropriate one for you (not yourself for attack spells).
MIGHTONS
Re: XPOST - Keep Spell Casting Simple - The breakage of PREP spell / CAST, CAST AT target
09/18/2015 02:23 AM CDT
A last note: removing the prep mechanic completely for all cast verbs is fine also maybe, as long as the critters still have to prep....
