WIKI Rules 08/27/2017 09:51 PM CDT
After a recent disagreement with the wiki queen I received this note:

:I'm sorry, but you changed information that was official. That is not permitted and I will report it. [[User:VANKRASN39|VANKRASN39]] ([[User talk:VANKRASN39|talk]]) 21:26, 27 August 2017 (CDT)

I updated the weighting/padding table to show the number of services needed to unlock each level.

I would LOVE to know exactly where it is spelled out what information I am and am not allowed to change on the wiki. I made a relevant update as a result of a change. She decided she didn't like it and reverted it because she's on a power trip. Once again the same person is pushing people around on the wiki. So Wyrom, is this Vankrasn's personal website or an open wiki for all the players?

This is obviously not the first time she has decided she owned the wiki and pushed me, and others, around. If the goal is to have no one contribute to the wiki because of her, it's working.




Keith/Brinret/Eronderl

Keith is correct
-Wyrom, APM

Keith is correct.
-GameMaster Estild

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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 06:57 AM CDT
I've had worse treatment for editing a mistake out of text that I put on the wiki in the first place. Apparently what I write is so authoritative that even I am not allowed to alter it.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 10:13 AM CDT
Probably your mistake for thinking the wiki was a collaborative effort.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 10:20 AM CDT


>I've had worse treatment for editing a mistake out of text that I put on the wiki in the first place. Apparently what I write is so authoritative that even I am not allowed to alter it.

you were presented with a clear case of the statement being true, you got angry and deleted the entire text of the article when asked to please wait for a GM response while I asked for clarification.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 10:35 AM CDT


>Probably your mistake for thinking the wiki was a collaborative effort.

it is collaborative when you're open to your work being scrutinized. Mine is scrutinized and changed all of the time, including majorly just last week, and it is fine because it gets us to the right place, which is having accurate documentation that is formatted in an appealing manner. Getting information from some GMs, and getting GMs to write the documentation, is like pulling toe nails. I have been given an impossible position, and I do my best to make sure the player base has some sort of reliable game documentation, but sometimes you have to be patient and wait for a GM response, which seems to be the issue with both of the previous posters, as both times I asked them to wait for a GM response.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 02:57 PM CDT
You asked me to wait for a GM response which wasn't necessary because you needed clarification for something. When I pointed out that you had erred you immediately locked me out of the page, said I was editing something I wasn't allowed to and threatened to report me. The bottom line is you didn't like the change and arbitrarily decided to remove it. You act like the Queen of the Wiki and power trip on everyone who doesn't let you push them around. You're making the wiki worse by making other people feel as if their contributions aren't welcome.

You need to be removed as a mod and I'm disappointed with Kaikala and Wyrom for allowing you to bully the other customers this long.

Keith/Brinret/Eronderl

Keith is correct
-Wyrom, APM

Keith is correct.
-GameMaster Estild

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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 03:33 PM CDT
Seconding KITHUS' request for clarification on every point. I have already emailed Wyrom detailing my experiences and my complete unwillingness to spend time and effort on the wiki for similar reasons, and money on events I've tried to support.

Jenn/Wee Sleepy Gnomette's player

P.S. I never received confirmation as to receipt of that email; if it was not received, please let me know and I will resend it.

Cloth-of-eonake: for when you absolutely, positively need to have zombie-impenetrable underwear. - Denil

When my scripts are acting up, I take Modrian with Coding. After a few hours, they feel like new! - MAXMANJ
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 04:34 PM CDT
<Getting information from some GMs, and getting GMs to write the documentation, is like pulling toe nails. I have been given an impossible position, and I do my best to make sure the player base has some sort of reliable game documentation, but sometimes you have to be patient and wait for a GM response,>

If editors waited for official documentation or info from a NIR about every item before putting it on the Wiki, it wouldn't be half as useful as it is. Heck, the whole reason the wiki's taken the place of the WEB site for almost everyone is because players did so much better at getting info about just about everything documented for other players then NIR ever did.

Of course it's always preferable to have info obtained from an official source. However, there's no reason people can't put what they've been able to determine via in game experience and/or reverse engineering in the absence of such. If something official is released an hour, day, month, or year later, it can always be edited to reflect what's official if needed.

While you may have been given a title that makes you responsible for ensuring the wiki doesn't fall into chaos, a wiki is no one's baby. I haven't had any reason to complain about you, but several of the most knowledgeable players about the game have posted complaints to this thread about you. Those are exactly the people you don't want to chase away from the wiki.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 05:04 PM CDT

>Heck, the whole reason the wiki's taken the place of the WEB site for almost everyone is because players did so much better at getting info about just about everything documented for other players then NIR ever did.

as you weren't privy to the transition email chain, your assumption of "the whole reason" is incorrect.

>However, there's no reason people can't put what they've been able to determine via in game experience and/or reverse engineering in the absence of such.

Actually, edits that include assumptions are not good as they spread those assumptions and people take it as fact because it is "on the wiki." After weeding through every single saved post to see what exactly was in that category, I came up with Research prefix pages for people to put undeveloped ideas on. Busying up articles with number crunching and informal prose was not helpful to teach people how things actually work.

I am available via email 24-7, and during the time since Wyrom first contacted me in November 2014 to the present, not once have I been told by staff that I am too heavy on the moderation in any specific incident, and I certainly welcomed that feedback from them. I have asked for guidelines and rules so many times, but have not been provided with them and have been told to keep doing what I'm doing, which now includes writing the rules and guidelines.

>If editors waited for official documentation or info from a NIR about every item before putting it on the Wiki

The game mechanics pages are treated much differently than an item page. The game mechanics pages need to stay true to game design intention. It's a huge project to get all of the information from the website consolidated, but it's moving along. It took 5 months to get clarity on what exactly on the wiki was official game lore documentation (i.e. the cultural/world articles found here: https://gswiki.play.net/Category:Official_Documentation). Every single suspect article I found was run through staff. That's the type of work we're doing.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 05:31 PM CDT
Let's get back to actually discussing things and not attacks at one another, please.


~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 05:37 PM CDT
<as you weren't privy to the transition email chain, your assumption of "the whole reason" is incorrect.>

I wasn't referring to the transition. The majority of the player population were referring to the wiki before the official documentation for more then half a decade before that took place.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 05:49 PM CDT

I'm sure you will be upset at whatever future edits are made. And I'm sure you will not recognize that I have not undone any of the work you've done today, as this has been passed on to staff. I'm also sure that you will not recognize that not once have I used objectionable, abusive language to address you, nor will you recognize that I have provided reasons any time I have done or undone something, whether you agree with them or not.

>You just don't want anyone doing anything without your express consent.

People do things every day without consulting me, and a vast majority of the edits are perfectly fine. It is the people who have imagined themselves as moderators, such as yourself, who have issues.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 06:11 PM CDT
It is the people who have imagined themselves as moderators, such as yourself, who have issues.


I imagine myself a contributor. As a contributor I except that my contributions, provided they are within the established rules of the wiki, will remain. They might have formatting fixed or their content corrected but they will not be removed on a whim. That is explicitly established rules, not rules that non-staff moderators make up as it suits them.

Now I have to ask, what authority do you feel that being a moderator conveys to you?

Keith/Brinret/Eronderl

Keith is correct
-Wyrom, APM

Keith is correct.
-GameMaster Estild

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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 06:18 PM CDT


>Now I have to ask, what authority do you feel that being a moderator conveys to you?

your chart changed information that was provided by staff. While a new chart was also provided by staff, the old chart and numbers are still valid as the combat effectiveness numbers, and there are some issues between the two that need further clarification. You chart does not include that clarification. In addition, some changes were made to where assessment identifications started, and the formatting is now sloppy. As a moderator, it is my responsibility to make sure those issues get cleared up.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 06:39 PM CDT
your chart changed information that was provided by staff. While a new chart was also provided by staff, the old chart and numbers are still valid as the combat effectiveness numbers,


The combat effectiveness numbers were kept. I simply added an extra column to show the service levels.

and there are some issues between the two that need further clarification. You chart does not include that clarification.


There was nothing that needed clarification about how many services related to each level of weighting or padding.

In addition, some changes were made to where assessment identifications started,


The original edit retained the negative weighting/padding assessment values. I don't find them particularly compelling information but I can certainly add them back in.

and the formatting is now sloppy.
As a moderator, it is my responsibility to make sure those issues get cleared up.


The formatting of my new chart is cleaner than your old one. However, were the formatting actually poor I agree a moderator should fix it up. Not remove it.



Keith/Brinret/Eronderl

Keith is correct
-Wyrom, APM

Keith is correct.
-GameMaster Estild

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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 08:06 PM CDT
Hey everyone, I'm reviewing everything that has gone on so far. I will weigh in a bit more tomorrow. Some of this situation went further up the chain of command, which is delaying my response.



Wyrom, PM
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 08:36 PM CDT
Is there a tag that can be applied to a table or section, besides locking it, that can be used to inform well-meaning players not to mess with it but instead make a copy? Or, by convention, could new information about something just released always be added to the bottom of the page, to be edited up later? Perhaps official information should all be put into a locked section of the page, regardless of how it impacts layout/readability.
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 09:36 PM CDT
We can try to do a "canon" template we can apply to things.



Wyrom, PM
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/28/2017 11:00 PM CDT
I think I'll weigh in here. Hypocrisy and all that, I'm sure. But I gotta say for two people whom I hold in such high regard, I'm . . . unhappy.

There are official documents. These are canon by their nature. They often times aren't mechanics specific.

There are portions of documents where players are given insight by GMs through various channels. These may not be canon, and I think it would be a mistake to drive an entire article towards a canonical marker just because some of the article may have been flat stated as true by a GM.

There are documents where significant research has been conducted by the player-base. These documents vary in their accuracy and are inherently limited in that players cannot see everything associated. Therefore they cannot be canon.

And there are free-form documents created by the players for various and sundry reasons, serving small or even individual needs.

Someone mentioned marking tables and such. Yes, it can be done - and was done. Which got us here.

In my opinion, we're not going to address 'growing pains' (see what I did there?) with more rules. I know that's where we're headed. Still count me opposed. Encouraging contribution, and having some means of marking / protecting canon data (which we have) are all that is necessary at this point. We have in fact all we need. And perhaps for all of us to remember we're only human. T.H.I.N.K. should apply (just to make the self-fulfilling prophecy real).

Doug
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/29/2017 06:36 PM CDT

>>In my opinion, we're not going to address 'growing pains' (see what I did there?) with more rules.

Amen on that one.

We have Fifty States and a Federal Government that serve as examples for why 'more rules' doesn't work.



whoops! that was way off topic ...

My first thought was Sleken's old informal information rating system could be tagged to individual pages somehow, with an additon for 'owned & protected'.

My second thought was ---

Does anyone here remember the 1960's era Project Xanadu? My recall is that it included methods & techniques for handling rating of quality and protecting ownership of information on the Internet (though it wasn't called Internet back then). It seems to me that the Gemstone Wiki has a lot of the characteristics that make it an attractive sandbox for evaluating implementations of those ideas:
1) clearly owned & protected historic information
2) modified owned & protected information
3) contributed individual creative information
4) contributed collective information
5) all sorts of research pooled type information
6) who all knows what else

The gemstone player base seems to have experts in just about everything ... is there one who has delved into how to control / rate / and gain royalties from internet based information in a community share?


heh ... how to you build a system without making rules?



Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
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Re: WIKI Rules 08/29/2017 08:13 PM CDT
Heh. Hopefully we won't have to wait 55 years for something that might work, though.

Doug
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