Having read Flimbo's UAC guide, I have decided to dip my toe in the possibilities inherent in the system. And one thing leaps readily to mind as a way to improve it.
UAC normally moves pretty fast (2-4 second RTs), which means that you need to turning the next command around pretty quickly or you're losing out on the power of the system. Okay, that's what highlights and macro keys (or, god forbid, someone should script it all). Fine.
But could we please get "assess unarmed" flagged so that it CAN BE DONE during RT?
(Like, after a nice messy mstrike, when you're sitting around looking at the screen count down.)
That's just painful.
Thanks!
KRAKII
KHARIZ555
Re: QOL improvement
09/17/2017 03:48 PM CDT
I know that people hate when this is brought up, but I'm gonna say it anyway: This is why most of us use Lich. Scripts like Combo, SmartMonk, and even using something like the "quick" operator on Bigshot allow the progression logic to be handled on the UAC system faster than our minds and hands can make sure we are using the correct command next.
With Combo and SmartMonk, you are still controlling the tactics of which critter to fight first etc. You just don't have to worry about the UAC tier progression logic. With Bigshot, you can code it to handle the entire situation however you'd prefer.
I realize that some people want to manually play every aspect of the game. I'm not sure how you assess something in 2 seconds of RT to better hit the next combo. When I'm manually UACing, I usually just look for the pointer messages that indicate they will be vulnerable to a kick or a punch next.
With Combo and SmartMonk, you are still controlling the tactics of which critter to fight first etc. You just don't have to worry about the UAC tier progression logic. With Bigshot, you can code it to handle the entire situation however you'd prefer.
I realize that some people want to manually play every aspect of the game. I'm not sure how you assess something in 2 seconds of RT to better hit the next combo. When I'm manually UACing, I usually just look for the pointer messages that indicate they will be vulnerable to a kick or a punch next.
KHARIZ555
Re: QOL improvement
09/17/2017 03:49 PM CDT
Well, apparently, I can't read, and you are talking about large RT from mstrikes. But my point still stands, that many of us are lazy and let scripts handle the tiering logic.
KRAKII
Re: QOL improvement
09/17/2017 10:20 PM CDT
Right, I'm talking about doing an mstrike against 2 (soon to be 3) creatures, seeing a long wall of stuff (free jab + one possibly effective attack) and a potential whole bunch of "this is what you should do next" messaging...
...NONE of which I can do any interpretive decision-making about ('assess unarmed') until the entire duration of the mstrike RT has run.
Hence my request.
.
.
I totally understand about the scripting--and was thinking about watching opponents & Duskruin traps as I was reading what you were writing--but, as you say, that ain't this.
...NONE of which I can do any interpretive decision-making about ('assess unarmed') until the entire duration of the mstrike RT has run.
Hence my request.
.
.
I totally understand about the scripting--and was thinking about watching opponents & Duskruin traps as I was reading what you were writing--but, as you say, that ain't this.
BRANDTJRT
Re: QOL improvement
09/17/2017 10:21 PM CDT
>>But could we please get "assess unarmed" flagged so that it CAN BE DONE during RT?
That would be really great. Usually if there are enough I am unsure, I can just mstrike again, but being able to check when needed would be wonderful.
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
That would be really great. Usually if there are enough I am unsure, I can just mstrike again, but being able to check when needed would be wonderful.
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
ROBLAR
Re: QOL improvement
09/17/2017 10:53 PM CDT
Hmm, the rt would be nice QOL but also the parser not requiring the entire UNARMED to be spelled out.
Most commands do not not function like that. Assess can be shorted to asse, due to ASSIST covering the um fewer amount of letters :)
Anyway, asses una or somethhing should probably work. Yes, yes macros, but considering the other commands that work like this, it should be viable and preferred and was probably overlooked.
Most commands do not not function like that. Assess can be shorted to asse, due to ASSIST covering the um fewer amount of letters :)
Anyway, asses una or somethhing should probably work. Yes, yes macros, but considering the other commands that work like this, it should be viable and preferred and was probably overlooked.
GS4-FINROS
Re: QOL improvement
09/17/2017 11:05 PM CDT
Honestly, the functionality should be in another verb. I put it in "assess unarmed" because I didn't have any better ideas. Maybe I just should have made an "unarmed" verb for things like that. I'll give it a bit of thought. I also will ask for other ideas for another place to put that functionality.
Part of the reason that it has to be spelled out fully is out of an abundance of caution for not wanting to stomp on any other parsable possibilities.
Part of the reason that it has to be spelled out fully is out of an abundance of caution for not wanting to stomp on any other parsable possibilities.
ROBLAR
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 12:30 AM CDT
That makes sense! Thanks for the info.
Hmm, a command that begins UAC? Like we have for CMAN and SHIELD, ARMOR etc. So uac assess, and maybe other functions could fall under that umbrella.
Ya could always merge the info with wtr appraise too ;)
Hmm, a command that begins UAC? Like we have for CMAN and SHIELD, ARMOR etc. So uac assess, and maybe other functions could fall under that umbrella.
Ya could always merge the info with wtr appraise too ;)
RATHBONER
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 06:02 AM CDT
>Ya could always merge the info with wtr appraise too ;)
Better the other way around, move wtr appraise somewhere that is usable in RT.
Better the other way around, move wtr appraise somewhere that is usable in RT.
GSLOVER
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 07:45 AM CDT
+1 for being able to 'ASSESS UNARMED' while in RT. Or at least whatever new command may come out to figure out what is the viable next tier-up action for the remaining creatures.
I am perfectly cool with keeping track of this one-on-one, though it does get confusing with MSTRIKE if it does not kill them all outright.
As a side note, I use audio alerts for the various "follow-up attack" messages so I can easily hear and associate a specific sound with a specific attack. (Though I am blind and trying to read the messaging with my screen reader after each attack was way too slow, so this was necessary for me. It may also help sighted users - I dunno.) So for me, after a MSTRIKE I hear a melody of different sounds sometimes as various "follow-up" messaging fires and no clue which one needs to be used next.
I am perfectly cool with keeping track of this one-on-one, though it does get confusing with MSTRIKE if it does not kill them all outright.
As a side note, I use audio alerts for the various "follow-up attack" messages so I can easily hear and associate a specific sound with a specific attack. (Though I am blind and trying to read the messaging with my screen reader after each attack was way too slow, so this was necessary for me. It may also help sighted users - I dunno.) So for me, after a MSTRIKE I hear a melody of different sounds sometimes as various "follow-up" messaging fires and no clue which one needs to be used next.
KRAKII
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 08:25 AM CDT
I thought about linking sound cues as well as text highlights, but I so often play with sound disabled (like running a show or movie in another window/on a TV) I didn't feel it was worth the bother.
.
Since we're looking at some possible changes, can I add to my shopping list?
1) (already there) The feedback currently associated with 'assess unarmed' able to be generated while in RT (specifically mstrike); I'm not hung up on it staying with assess, so if a new verb happens (I kind of like the "uac" that was suggested) I'm cool with that.
2) ADDing some information to that display, such as an asterisk ("*") next your CURRENT 'target'.
(So that we know when it may be advantageous to 'target next' and hit something more easily.)
3a) REFORMATING some information, such as "1st" "2nd" "3rd" (note these are all the same # of characters in length) rather than "first" [5 chars.] "second" [6], "third" [5] and so on.
(This simplifies having the lines all, you know. Line up. Easier reading.)
.
3b) I believe 'assess unarmed' is one of the commands that returns its first line ON the prompt line, so if you have the prompt character there--and I mean just the ">"... not even any pre-prompts, like stunned or prone or bleeding or webbed or dead--all the other lines below are out of alignment.
(I say 'one of the commands' because I have seen others, recently, but none leap to mind to point to.)
Could the response back be pushed down a line--as happens with 'sing'--OR have the later lines be equally displaced by "number of prompt icons"?
Again, this would have all lines, line up.
.
Since we're looking at some possible changes, can I add to my shopping list?
1) (already there) The feedback currently associated with 'assess unarmed' able to be generated while in RT (specifically mstrike); I'm not hung up on it staying with assess, so if a new verb happens (I kind of like the "uac" that was suggested) I'm cool with that.
2) ADDing some information to that display, such as an asterisk ("*") next your CURRENT 'target'.
(So that we know when it may be advantageous to 'target next' and hit something more easily.)
3a) REFORMATING some information, such as "1st" "2nd" "3rd" (note these are all the same # of characters in length) rather than "first" [5 chars.] "second" [6], "third" [5] and so on.
(This simplifies having the lines all, you know. Line up. Easier reading.)
.
3b) I believe 'assess unarmed' is one of the commands that returns its first line ON the prompt line, so if you have the prompt character there--and I mean just the ">"... not even any pre-prompts, like stunned or prone or bleeding or webbed or dead--all the other lines below are out of alignment.
(I say 'one of the commands' because I have seen others, recently, but none leap to mind to point to.)
Could the response back be pushed down a line--as happens with 'sing'--OR have the later lines be equally displaced by "number of prompt icons"?
Again, this would have all lines, line up.
DOUG
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 08:38 AM CDT
So, I've been doing a bit of monk-ing around, lately. There is a story behind that, but. . .
My observations so far are in agreement - but I'd probably suggest a slightly different solution. I don't mind at all there being a verb that can be called at any time. That's useful, especially in retreat / heal situations where it will update with a degraded stance affect if you're taking too long without having to be in the same room.
But - for the 'in the moment' combat, I'd consider:
1) At the end of mstrike UAC, adding one line with status for each combatant. If you have two, then there are two lines. If you have three, then there are three, etc. I'd also tie into the 'no numbers' or 'combat brief' system to amplify those lines with Creature - Tier; Health; Status (stunned, prone, etc).
2) I'd like to see an SF window panel created for UAC specifically - which would automatically track this type of information for each target engaged.
3) It might not help our visually impaired players as much as I would like, but I'd like to see a better use of monster bold in key messaging scenarios, to draw the eye.
Doug
My observations so far are in agreement - but I'd probably suggest a slightly different solution. I don't mind at all there being a verb that can be called at any time. That's useful, especially in retreat / heal situations where it will update with a degraded stance affect if you're taking too long without having to be in the same room.
But - for the 'in the moment' combat, I'd consider:
1) At the end of mstrike UAC, adding one line with status for each combatant. If you have two, then there are two lines. If you have three, then there are three, etc. I'd also tie into the 'no numbers' or 'combat brief' system to amplify those lines with Creature - Tier; Health; Status (stunned, prone, etc).
2) I'd like to see an SF window panel created for UAC specifically - which would automatically track this type of information for each target engaged.
3) It might not help our visually impaired players as much as I would like, but I'd like to see a better use of monster bold in key messaging scenarios, to draw the eye.
Doug
KRAKII
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 08:47 AM CDT
Point #2 -- Doug
I wasn't sure if StormFront already had something like that; I figured it might, because that'd be what you call "mighty frickin' useful."
Pity it doesn't, but then that simplifies my staying with the Wizard... :)
I wasn't sure if StormFront already had something like that; I figured it might, because that'd be what you call "mighty frickin' useful."
Pity it doesn't, but then that simplifies my staying with the Wizard... :)
ROBLAR
RATHBONER
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 03:54 PM CDT
I use different color highlights for the positioning messaging, which works fine for single strike situations, even if they are pretty messy, if I see a flash of red scrolling up, I know its a jab that's being called for and I pick one of my jab macros to hit. Mstrike is impossible though.
Doug's #1. Something like this is exactly what is needed.
Doug's #3. Monster bold is already over used in my opinion and I'd much rather that highlight was restricted to monsters than added to yet another class of objects.
>2) ADDing some information to that display, such as an asterisk ("*") next your CURRENT 'target'.
+1 on this.
Doug's #1. Something like this is exactly what is needed.
Doug's #3. Monster bold is already over used in my opinion and I'd much rather that highlight was restricted to monsters than added to yet another class of objects.
>2) ADDing some information to that display, such as an asterisk ("*") next your CURRENT 'target'.
+1 on this.
KRAKII
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 03:58 PM CDT
Personally, I would be delighted if the MonsterBold was to be used on the random rotating generation (and movement) messaging.
As it is, I have to keep going in and updating every time a new motion-verb gets activated.
(The orc ambles, the coyote trots, the worm crawls, the whatsit flies, the whoknowswhat dithers, the...)
It's a monster. It's moving. ("Into my room" could be a gen... in which case, it's a gen message! Those are guaranteed to come from one place, and always be a Monster...)
MonsterBold. Problem solved.
.
But maybe that's just me.
As it is, I have to keep going in and updating every time a new motion-verb gets activated.
(The orc ambles, the coyote trots, the worm crawls, the whatsit flies, the whoknowswhat dithers, the...)
It's a monster. It's moving. ("Into my room" could be a gen... in which case, it's a gen message! Those are guaranteed to come from one place, and always be a Monster...)
MonsterBold. Problem solved.
.
But maybe that's just me.
DOUG
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 04:43 PM CDT
>>2) ADDing some information to that display, such as an asterisk ("*") next your CURRENT 'target'.
Yep, not sure how I missed that one, but I'd +1 that too - nice one.
>>Doug's #3. Monster bold is already over used in my opinion and I'd much rather that highlight was restricted to monsters than added to yet another class of objects.
I'm kind of in agreement, which is why I suggested 'better use'. But - it doesn't meet your second criterion, since it stretches to 'another class'. I think you're right, overall. let's put that one away for a bit - it can be better tuned and still be used for just one class of objects.
I wonder, though - maybe we should consider another attack verb for UAC. That verb could just be overloaded with the best possible attack based on tiering. Let's say, for example, a new verb - SMACK.
Of course, it would have to be a better verb than 'smack'. But hopefully that serves the purpose of example.
Doug
Yep, not sure how I missed that one, but I'd +1 that too - nice one.
>>Doug's #3. Monster bold is already over used in my opinion and I'd much rather that highlight was restricted to monsters than added to yet another class of objects.
I'm kind of in agreement, which is why I suggested 'better use'. But - it doesn't meet your second criterion, since it stretches to 'another class'. I think you're right, overall. let's put that one away for a bit - it can be better tuned and still be used for just one class of objects.
I wonder, though - maybe we should consider another attack verb for UAC. That verb could just be overloaded with the best possible attack based on tiering. Let's say, for example, a new verb - SMACK.
| stance off |
| jab orc |
| >results indicate a tier bonus for punch |
| >wait rt |
| stance def |
| (after the orc swings) |
| stance off |
| smack orc |
| >automagically recalls and gives results for punch orc |
| >results indicate a tier bonus for grapple |
| >orc is stunned |
| >wait rt |
| smack orc |
| >automagically recalls and gives results for grapple orc |
| >poor orc |
| >wait rt |
| stance def |
Of course, it would have to be a better verb than 'smack'. But hopefully that serves the purpose of example.
Doug
KANDOR
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 08:17 PM CDT
>I wonder, though - maybe we should consider another attack verb for UAC. That verb could just be overloaded with the best possible attack based on tiering. Let's say, for example, a new verb - SMACK.
There would be no point in using jab/punch/grapple/kick, if you always got the best result with the new verb. I'm not entirely opposed -- I think all weapon combat in this game should convert to use UAC mechanics and auto-tier as you're describing it, but using attack/kill verb. The individual commands are more engaging. They require better attention and need to be entered faster, though these may not be helpful for the older folks, and they aren't appreciated by players who want instant kill gratification. Combined with aiming and targeting, though, the short RTs demand scripts. After their 1st/2nd/nth combat overhaul, DragonRealms did something similar, but there you get better results using the individual commands, plus some one-off commands like feint and bob that aren't incorporated into attack. I could be mistaken about this, though.
There would be no point in using jab/punch/grapple/kick, if you always got the best result with the new verb. I'm not entirely opposed -- I think all weapon combat in this game should convert to use UAC mechanics and auto-tier as you're describing it, but using attack/kill verb. The individual commands are more engaging. They require better attention and need to be entered faster, though these may not be helpful for the older folks, and they aren't appreciated by players who want instant kill gratification. Combined with aiming and targeting, though, the short RTs demand scripts. After their 1st/2nd/nth combat overhaul, DragonRealms did something similar, but there you get better results using the individual commands, plus some one-off commands like feint and bob that aren't incorporated into attack. I could be mistaken about this, though.
DOUG
Re: QOL improvement
09/18/2017 09:27 PM CDT
>>though these may not be helpful for the older folks
Yeah, yeah. Millennium hand and shrimp, and all that.
>>and they aren't appreciated by players who want instant kill gratification.
It's a fine line, but for me it isn't insta-kill. It's ease on the carpals.
Doug
Yeah, yeah. Millennium hand and shrimp, and all that.
>>and they aren't appreciated by players who want instant kill gratification.
It's a fine line, but for me it isn't insta-kill. It's ease on the carpals.
Doug
BRANDTJRT
Re: QOL improvement
09/19/2017 04:00 AM CDT
As a thought, could there just be a command position? It looks like it'd be posi at the shortest, but that's straightforward and says exactly what you get.
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.
GSLOVER
Re: QOL improvement
09/19/2017 07:14 AM CDT
In regards to the asterisk being added to the display indicating which you are currently targeting:
- I like it.
But to make it more blind-friendly/screen reader friendly:
- Please place the asterisk as the very first thing on the line so that it is the first thing a screen reader encounters.
Nothing as infuriating as having to wait for a screen reader to read to the very end of the line of long information to hear what you're really looking for.
It's about as bad as ASCII formatting. (See PREMIUM 9 for an example of this frustration - I have to hear "vertical bar vertical bar", etc. as my screen reader reads all the gibberish ASCII symbols used to prettify the output.) So please don't use ASCII formatting in this new verb, either. Haha.
- I like it.
But to make it more blind-friendly/screen reader friendly:
- Please place the asterisk as the very first thing on the line so that it is the first thing a screen reader encounters.
Nothing as infuriating as having to wait for a screen reader to read to the very end of the line of long information to hear what you're really looking for.
It's about as bad as ASCII formatting. (See PREMIUM 9 for an example of this frustration - I have to hear "vertical bar vertical bar", etc. as my screen reader reads all the gibberish ASCII symbols used to prettify the output.) So please don't use ASCII formatting in this new verb, either. Haha.
KRAKII
Re: QOL improvement
09/20/2017 08:43 AM CDT
Okay, something else I noticed (which I think would be a general QOL improvement, not nece-celery for UAC):
"assess unarmed" shows you the "(first) lesser orc" or "(third) lesser orc"...
...any reason why would could not get THIS information, put into regular usage?
A (second) stone giant swings a war mattock at you!
AS: +343 vs DS: +285 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +20 = +118
... and hits for 7 points of damage!
Thumped your chest.
.
Particularly for creatures who are known to change stance (turtle when hurt, when casting, before/after maneuvers, whatever), it lets us have some better idea of what's going on.
A (third) stone troll's flesh wounds regenerate slowly.
A (first) stone troll snatches up a reinforced shield!
A (first) stone troll lifts her huge foot up and slams it into the ground, shaking everything violently!
You manage to keep your footing.
(Although I think it might read better to change the article to "The" rather than "A/n". And, of course, use "1st/2nd/3rd" as I mentioned previously, to a) keep the size of the printout the same, and b) key the player in as to what Ctrl+<number> to press to hit it.)
.
This also lets the Gen and Move notifications be changed to include, "A (new) roa'ter burrows into the room."
And then all of the MonsterBold messages can trigger off of the "(new)" string, highlight all, presto, done.
.
Since I'm proposing additional information, I would also be down with:
"A (2nd, target) stone giant swings a war mattock at you!"
Just sayin'.
"assess unarmed" shows you the "(first) lesser orc" or "(third) lesser orc"...
...any reason why would could not get THIS information, put into regular usage?
A (second) stone giant swings a war mattock at you!
AS: +343 vs DS: +285 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +20 = +118
... and hits for 7 points of damage!
Thumped your chest.
.
Particularly for creatures who are known to change stance (turtle when hurt, when casting, before/after maneuvers, whatever), it lets us have some better idea of what's going on.
A (third) stone troll's flesh wounds regenerate slowly.
A (first) stone troll snatches up a reinforced shield!
A (first) stone troll lifts her huge foot up and slams it into the ground, shaking everything violently!
You manage to keep your footing.
(Although I think it might read better to change the article to "The" rather than "A/n". And, of course, use "1st/2nd/3rd" as I mentioned previously, to a) keep the size of the printout the same, and b) key the player in as to what Ctrl+<number> to press to hit it.)
.
This also lets the Gen and Move notifications be changed to include, "A (new) roa'ter burrows into the room."
And then all of the MonsterBold messages can trigger off of the "(new)" string, highlight all, presto, done.
.
Since I'm proposing additional information, I would also be down with:
"A (2nd, target) stone giant swings a war mattock at you!"
Just sayin'.
RATHBONER
Re: QOL improvement
09/20/2017 09:11 AM CDT
>"A (2nd, target) stone giant swings a war mattock at you!"
Silly giant, don't they know those things are fragile ...
Silly giant, don't they know those things are fragile ...
KRAKII
Re: QOL improvement
09/20/2017 09:21 AM CDT
Actually, I was essentially immune to their weapons, and gradually aged into safety of their warding spells (I moved to that area at -7 against the trolls, and -10 against the giants). Even the Boil Earth wasn't terribly bad, because nimble Elfie-welfie.
Earthen Fury, upon its release, was a totally different story...
.
(For preference, I would keep the "(2nd)" notation and the "[target]" notation completely separate, rather than including one within the other.
For helping GSLover out, rather than having to listen to "square bracket target square bracket", maybe--since we've already suggested having the asterisk ("*") mean "this is your current target"--we do something like:
> * The (2nd) stone giant swings a war mattock at you!
[And yes, I deliberately padded that with a left-leading 'space', to have the asterisk stand out.])
Earthen Fury, upon its release, was a totally different story...
.
(For preference, I would keep the "(2nd)" notation and the "[target]" notation completely separate, rather than including one within the other.
For helping GSLover out, rather than having to listen to "square bracket target square bracket", maybe--since we've already suggested having the asterisk ("*") mean "this is your current target"--we do something like:
> * The (2nd) stone giant swings a war mattock at you!
[And yes, I deliberately padded that with a left-leading 'space', to have the asterisk stand out.])
