I have a question regarding shield and UAC interaction; will therefore probably crosspost in both folders.
I am using UAC as my rogue's primary attack form; she also uses a small shield (buckler). She always gets the message that her attack is hindered by holding her buckler, but because she attacks from ambush she still gets good results. Now, rogues, unlike warriors, can only train 2x in shield at most, so I want to be the most cost efficient possible with my more limited shield training point pool.
Each rank of shield brawling skill reduces the MM penalty from holding a shield by 2; in practical terms, how much does this add to the efficiency of the attack and/or damage done? I have just picked up one rank of shielded brawling this morning, and may get a second in a day or two. Given the cost of getting more ranks beyond this, I suspect the cost effectiveness of going beyond this point would be poor, but I have no data on which to base my decision. Basically, I was doing OK with no shield brawler skill whatsoever; how much can I expect a rank or two to improve my UAC performance?
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male."
THROGG
THROGG
Re: shields and brawling
08/23/2014 10:48 PM CDT
ok, here's some data from my first hunt with 1 rank of shield brawling. I include an attack without a shield, for comparison.
>stance offen
> punch troll left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone troll!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone troll.
UAF: 338 vs UDF: 210 = 1.609 * MM: 83 + d100: 18 = 151
... and hit for 37 points of damage!
Well executed strike to the stone troll's left leg fractures the fibula.
The stone troll is knocked to the ground!
The stone troll is stunned!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>wear buck
You sling a glistening sea-blue buckler over your shoulder.
>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A stone troll's flesh wounds regenerate some.
A stone troll's left leg regenerates and looks much better.
A stone troll flails his arms about angrily, shaking off the stun!
HR>stance offen
> punch troll head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone troll!
You have excellent positioning against a stone troll.
UAF: 338 vs UDF: 210 = 1.609 * MM: 105 + d100: 62 = 231
... and hit for 62 points of damage!
Awesome punch to forehead snaps head straight back with a sickening CRUNCH!
The stone troll shudders violently for a moment, then goes still.
The air about a stone troll stops shimmering.
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<
Now, with 4 more ranks of shield brawling, the MM would go from 83 to 91; still not as good as no shield at all, and expensive in shield training points. Note: 2 attacks are usually all I need to kill a stone troll, with or without a shield. Giants average 4 attacks. They're higher level and have a better UDF.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
>stance offen
> punch troll left leg
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone troll!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a stone troll.
UAF: 338 vs UDF: 210 = 1.609 * MM: 83 + d100: 18 = 151
... and hit for 37 points of damage!
Well executed strike to the stone troll's left leg fractures the fibula.
The stone troll is knocked to the ground!
The stone troll is stunned!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>wear buck
You sling a glistening sea-blue buckler over your shoulder.
>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
A stone troll's flesh wounds regenerate some.
A stone troll's left leg regenerates and looks much better.
A stone troll flails his arms about angrily, shaking off the stun!
HR>stance offen
> punch troll head
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a stone troll!
You have excellent positioning against a stone troll.
UAF: 338 vs UDF: 210 = 1.609 * MM: 105 + d100: 62 = 231
... and hit for 62 points of damage!
Awesome punch to forehead snaps head straight back with a sickening CRUNCH!
The stone troll shudders violently for a moment, then goes still.
The air about a stone troll stops shimmering.
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<
Now, with 4 more ranks of shield brawling, the MM would go from 83 to 91; still not as good as no shield at all, and expensive in shield training points. Note: 2 attacks are usually all I need to kill a stone troll, with or without a shield. Giants average 4 attacks. They're higher level and have a better UDF.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
RATHBONER
Re: shields and brawling
08/24/2014 03:52 AM CDT
2 to MM is irrelevant for attacks like those. It might not be for attacks on the giants. When I gave up a rank of punch mastery (5 MM) for a test, I found its loss quite noticeable.
The ROI on UAF and UDF pulls their ratio closer to 1 as you level up. You have 1.6 there, at cap it might be 1.3 in a similar situation and you'll find the shield penalty less bearable at higher level than it is now. Eventually you'll want it (if you keep the shield) even if there are things that you prefer to get first.
The ROI on UAF and UDF pulls their ratio closer to 1 as you level up. You have 1.6 there, at cap it might be 1.3 in a similar situation and you'll find the shield penalty less bearable at higher level than it is now. Eventually you'll want it (if you keep the shield) even if there are things that you prefer to get first.
THROGG
Re: shields and brawling
08/24/2014 05:30 PM CDT
OK, so you feel that shield brawler is worth while even though I can't totally offset the penalty. I'll be able to get another rank in a day or so I also have one rank of punch mastery; I'll have to try and squeeze in another rank if it raises the MM by 5. Also have a wizard working on some higher enchant hand and footwaps.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
Re: shields and brawling
08/25/2014 12:28 AM CDT
To clarify a bit ... some maneuvers you want to get as many ranks as you can so they don't fail when you really need them. Feint, disarm, bullrush, charge, vanish etc etc. With some maneuvers however, it is more cost efficient to learn only 1-2 ranks. For example, I have exactly 1 rank of surge of strength. That gives the most bang for your buck (+8 to weapon AS). Further ranks are hardly worth getting considering the TP cost and the much lesser benefit. I am still debating how far to go with shield brawler. Another rank of punch mastery would cost more TPs but give greater benefit re MM value. Also, punch mastery benefits will apply whether or not I am using a shield; if I do decide to go shieldless at some point in the combat, those shield brawler ranks are contributing nothing.
Decisions, decisons ...
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
And the little devils
all sing-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
Decisions, decisons ...
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
And the little devils
all sing-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
RATHBONER
Re: shields and brawling
08/25/2014 05:15 AM CDT
Nasty heavy things are shields. I only had one for stunman training.
The more important it is to have a bonus, the more important it is that the bonus is on MM rather than on UAF. Its only about 5:2 (one enchant worth one rank of shield brawl) in that troll clip but with more difficult critters it swings much more to MM.
I saw 10:1 from the open at cap. Ambush shouldn't go quite as high but I already see 7:1 hunting in Idolone.
The more important it is to have a bonus, the more important it is that the bonus is on MM rather than on UAF. Its only about 5:2 (one enchant worth one rank of shield brawl) in that troll clip but with more difficult critters it swings much more to MM.
I saw 10:1 from the open at cap. Ambush shouldn't go quite as high but I already see 7:1 hunting in Idolone.
GILBERTJ26
Re: shields and brawling
08/26/2014 07:11 PM CDT
t is also worth mentioning there is or is supposed to be modifier for bows and rune staff that reduces the MM penalty. I am not sure it extends to one hand open for shields or not, but I would think it might if its a small shield and your kicking..
Also the build your going for may work fine, if you use the shield and brawl until you see the stack messaging, then wear the shield and go full brawl. Its risky with multiple critters, but should work 1 on 1.
I can say from most of the posts I've read you want your MM at 90 or better with equal age or older critters.
