It seems like there's been something of a movement lately that's heading towards transparency which is amazing and it seems like almost everyone loves. I was wondering if it's intentional that thrown weapons don't have a formula listed on the official wiki?

It actually states that STR affects a characters RT with thrown weapons like ranged, but that's it. For instance, at 0 STR bonus my character can hurl a handaxe in 6s but at 5 STR bonus the same character will hurl it in 3. Wizard strength will add to said characters AS, but will not decrease the RT unlike with ranged.

Similar to archery, hurlers gain 1s by aiming, but no amount of STR, AGI, or DEX, seem to reduce that back to 3.

Without a posted formula it's difficult to know whether or not all mechanics are working as intended. Any help would be great.

-Naraz

The 1s RT added to archery from aiming can be trained away. Base RT for aiming a bow when properly trained is 3s aiming or otherwise (at least from the open). This is unlike thrown where the 1s added with aim can never be trained away which frankly seems odd because it's not enough to keep bards from throwing 1s aim shots and...well I'm really not sure of it's justification.

>aim
USAGE: AIM {location} Sets your default aiming preference
AIM CLEAR Clears your default aiming preference
AIM RANDOM Same as AIM CLEAR
AIM LIST Produces a list of aimable locations

You're currently attempting to aim at the head of your target on each firing or ambush.
>
>get 1 arrow
You remove a single wooden arrow from a bundle of wooden arrows.
>fire rol
You nock a wooden arrow in your short bow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a rolton!
AS: +27 vs DS: -5 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +95 = +147
... and hit for 24 points of damage!
Strike pierces thigh!
The rolton is knocked to the ground!
Glancing shot. The wooden arrow flips over, landing behind a rolton.
Roundtime: 3 sec.


With regards to the formulas, people have attempted to reverse engineer them as you said, but nothing official has ever been posted in these forums. Simutronics officially took over the WIKI and it seems redundant and hypocritical to officially maintain a wiki with limited info because formulas and information is intentionally hidden. It makes conversations like the one we're having rather difficult because it's all conjecture and anecdotal.

-Naraz

Copy of ye olde hurling FAQ, written up by Tep:

Re: New hurled weapon user looking for advice · on 7/31/2005 10:54:19 AM

All credit goes to Tep for his Hurling FAQ he came up with not long before he left from Gemstone. I just repost. Also lets hope my tables came out right!! heh

---

HURLING FAQ

This hopefully will be a quick list of frequently asked questions and general useful information for thrown weapon combat.

Stats:
There are five stats that I feel are important for hurling, three direct and two indirect. They are strength, dexterity, agility, constitution, and discipline. We'll run through what they do quickly.

Strength:

1) A factor in your hurling AS.
2) Determines what messaging you receive when hurling, which in turn figures out what penalties (if any) to your RT.
3) Encumbrance control, which can be a rather large factor for hurlers.

Dexterity:

1) A factor in your hurling AS.
2) Works in tandem with AGILITY to reduce your RT while hurling.

Agility:

1) Works in tandem with DEXTERITY to reduce your RT while hurling.

Constitution:

1) Encumbrance control. See strength 3.

Discipline:

1) While I have no direct evidence of this I'm going to go out on a limb and say this effects aiming similar to archery.

Skills:
There are five skills that make up the hurling skill set, albeit some are used only when you're hurling from hiding. They are thrown weapon, perception, combat maneuvers, ambush, and stalking/hiding.

Thrown weapon:

1) This makes up the largest part of your hurled AS.

Perception:

1) A factor in your AS. It caps at 2x per level for AS.
2) Helps you AIM your throws.
3) Helps you find weapons that have flown in to the environment.

Combat maneuvers:

1) A factor in your AS. It also caps at 2x per level.
2) Helps with open aiming, I think. I'm not 100% on this one.

Ambush (only from hiding):

1) Supposedly effects both your aiming and chance to stay hidden while hurling from hiding.

Stalking/Hiding (only from hiding):

1) Helps you stay hidden when throwing from hiding.

General information and questions:

Q) Why should I train in thrown weapon combat? Or, what does thrown weapon combat do for me?
A) Other than looking cool it bypasses parry DS on creatures and characters, which can be rather handy for smacking hard to hit creatures/characters. Also as a ranged attack it's impossible to parry and harder to evade/block.

Q) How do I hurl a weapon?
A) Hold it in your right hand and hurl <creature> or hurl <creature> <body part>. IE: Hurl kobold or hurl kobold head. If you have a weapon in your left hand AND two weapon combat skill you can hurl two weapons at once.

Q) Why can't I pick up my weapon immediately after throwing it?
A) Because we have simulated range. You can generally pick up a weapon somewhere between ten and fifteen seconds after throwing it.

Q) Do I need to be trained for the weapon I'm throwing to have defense with it? IE: If I'm holding a dagger to throw, but have no edged training will I have any parry DS?
A) No, you will not have any parry DS with a weapon you're not trained for. That means if you're planning to be swung at with the weapon you intend to hurl you need to be trained for it to be granted parry DS. Edged for daggers and handaxes, poles for spears, blunts for hammers, etc. However, any weapon that inspects as a thrown weapon will grant you parry DS based on your thrown weapons training (chakram, discus, dart, bola, net, and javelin).

Q) Do I need to be trained for the weapon I'm throwing to have any hurled AS with it?
A) Nope! You can attempt to throw any weapon regardless of weapon training.

Q) What weapons can I hurl?
A) While you can technically try to hurl anything, only certain weapons are designed for hurling. They are the chakram, net, bola, dart, discus, dagger, spear, handaxe, javelin, pilum, and war hammer. Weapons other than these have a penalty attached to them that is AT LEAST +1 second to your RT. Some are much more.

Q) Why is STRENGTH so important?
A) Your strength bonus determines what weapons you can hurl effectively. There are a number of messages displayed while hurling with various penalties attached to them, ranging from slight round time increases to injuries and winding up kneeling. "Quick flick of the wrist" is your optimal message with no penalties attached. "With deliberate force" has a +3 seconds to RT penalty. If you're getting any other message than these two I'd find a different weapon to throw.

Q) What about small races then? Do they get the shaft?
A) Not really. While they lack the strength to throw some weapons at the optimal message their DEX/AGL bonuses allow them to knock off RT. The RT reduction is the same as it is for melee combat, (15 * X) - 7 per second of reduction. So a combined bonus of +8 would reduce your RT by one second, +23 would be two seconds, etc.

Q) What strength bonus do I need to hurl a weapon with the "quick flick" message?
A) That depends on the weapon. Consult the chart below.

Weapon Quick flick (No penalties) Deliberate force (+3 seconds of RT)
Dagger -20 You should never see this.
Dart -20 You should never see this.
Bola +5 +4 - -2
Net 0 -1 - -5
Javelin 0 -1 - -5
Quoit +15 +14 - +7
Handaxe +5 +4 - -2
Discus +15 +14 - +7
Hammer +10 +9 - +3
Spear +15 +14 - +7


Q) What are the Damage Factors for thrown weapons?
A) See the chart below.
Weapon Skin Leather Scale Chain Plate
Dagger 0.250 0.200 0.100 0.125 0.075
Dart 0.125 0.100 0.075 0.055 0.050
Handaxe 0.420 0.300 0.270 0.240 0.210
Chakram 0.255 0.230 0.155 0.110 0.057
War Hammer 0.410 0.290 0.250 0.275 0.200
Discus 0.255 0.230 0.155 0.110 0.057
Net 0.060 0.060 0.035 0.045 0.016
Bola 0.205 0.158 0.107 0.118 0.067
Spear (1-handed) 0.425 0.325 0.250 0.250 0.160
Spear (2-handed) 0.550 0.385 0.340 0.325 0.220
Javelin 0.425 0.325 0.250 0.250 0.160


Q) *How do I calculate my hurled AS?*
A) While the formula we have isn't exact, it's pretty close. Remember, CM and Perception cap at 2x per level.

*Thrown skill + ((STR Bonus + DEX Bonus)/2) + ((Perception ranks + CM ranks)/4) = AS.*

Q) What is the most likely problem I am going to face hurling weapons?
A) Your number one problem will likely be not having a weapon in hand after throwing, leaving you with lowered DS until you can pick that one back up or pull out another one. This can be overcome a few different ways. You can train in brawling, picking your fights carefully, hurling from hiding (see notes below), and/or having exceptional timing.

Hurling from hiding, or "sniping", isn't the most reliable thing in its current form, IMO. Your mileage will likely vary, but it's important to realize that it's not as reliable as archery "sniping". Again that's just my opinion.

Just a few other general comments before I wind this down. True thrown weapons are disgustingly heavy and rather ineffective, some completely as is the case with the nets and bola, when compared to their melee counterparts. So choose the dagger over the dart, the handaxe over the chakram, etc for pure effectiveness.

Encumbrance issues are a big problem for the hurler. We have to carry multiple weapons to get the job done generally with fly off, environment loss, creatures picking up stuff, and "distance" between you and your weapon after hurling. Couple that with the disgustingly heavy true thrown weapons and you can see how it adds up quickly. Beyond that hurling RT is extremely weight dependant, much more so than melee combat. So stay as light as you can while carrying enough to get the job done.

Round time with two weapon tosses is a little funky right now as well. You can be hit with the off hand weight penalty and the too heavy hurling penalty at times. I wish there was a tried and true method I could give you to help you figure out your RT, but personal experimentation is really the only way to go. Just remember that the higher your strength, dexterity, and agility bonuses are, the quicker you'll be able to toss.

If you're under trained for your armor your DEX/AGL bonuses WILL NOT cancel out the RT for that while hurling like they do with melee combat. So if you're not trained for your armor expect to get dinged with the RT.

As a hurler you need to be aware of everything around you. You can avoid so many mishaps if you familiarize yourself with the general RT of the creatures you're hunting, the length of stuns, how much health your target has, what walked in to the room with you, etc. Timing is everything to you. A second or two can be the difference between walking away and being carried away.

So how can you do this? When I go somewhere new I generally scout it out for a hunt or two. I try and gauge the RT on everything and color code my creatures according to how fast they are. For example, four second creatures are all highlighted in red, five-six second creatures are orange, seven or greater are usually a nice bright blue.

Then I look for messaging when they enter a room. This I usually tie to a ringing bell sound highlight and a bright yellow color highlight. Just something so that I know that there's something new in there with me.

You get the idea. It's a little time consuming, but it really makes things easier in the long run. Stay alert and your hurling experiences will be a lot more enjoyable.

Bijou says, "You'll get a handful of fist."
Bijou says, "Then I can heal you...and give you more fist."

Why, yes - the WIKI probably should be updated with that information. It likely will be shortly. In answer to your questions, though:

-- Strength provides a +15 bonus to the target's strength (but does not directly enhance the Strength stat), effectively increasing melee attack strength (AS) and reducing encumbrance. (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/509 )

Since this spell doesn't enhance the STAT, it doesn't factor into any calculations other than those specified.

-- Whether one is attacking from hiding or in the open, using the AMBUSH verb adds three seconds to an attacker's weapon BASE roundtime. This additional roundtime may be mitigated in the normal way via agility and dexterity bonuses down to the minimum ambush roundtime of the particular weapon used. (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/AMBUSH_(verb) )

This holds true for all attack types, with the sole exception of aiming bolt spells because. . . no.

Doug

<but the entire point of a WIKI is to consolidate info so new players don't get frustrated with a lack of resources and existing players have an easy time finding info.>

If Simu hadn't taken over control of the Wiki when they did, it and the vast majority of the info on it would have been lost and we'd be limited to what's on PC and the very few player run WEB sites left.

While I agree that is would be nice if someone on staff were updating it with formulas and such, one of the upsides to the Simu take-over is that it's no longer limited to just a few people that can edit it. Now that anyone with an active account can edit the Wiki directly, there are far fewer things we're told by the GMs that don't make it onto the Wiki and those that are doing their own research are much more likely to get their findings onto it.

It's true that there's still room for improvement, but it's also important to acknowledge that info on GS is far more consolidated (not to mention accurate) now then at any other point in the history of the game.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Strength (and similar spells) decrease the RT when both firing arrows and the additional 1 second of RT that's added when aiming. The entire justification being that wizard strength adds an additional 15 to STR bonus in order to lose another 1 second of ranged RT. It's literally on the official GSWIKI which states wizard strength adds +15 to strength bonus in order to decrease ranged RT https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/The_Art_of_the_Bow_(guide)

And there you have it - Wizard Strength does apply to HURLing as well.

hurl thyr

With every fiber of your being, you manage to heave a bone-hafted iron battle-axe towards your target, the resulting effort forcing you to your knees, gasping for breath!

You throw a bone-hafted iron battle-axe at a thyril!

AS: +4 vs DS: +9 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +92 = +125

... and hit for 24 points of damage!

Banged the thyril's right shin.

That'll raise a good welt.

The iron battle-axe flips over, landing behind a thyril.

Roundtime: 16 sec.

Roundtime changed to 13 seconds.

>

A thyril swings a broadsword at you!

You evade the attack by inches!

>l

[Frozen Garden, Embankment]

You notice a bone-hafted iron battle-axe and a thyril.

Obvious paths: north, northeast

>

[new506]>incant 506

You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity...

Your spell is ready.

You gesture.

You suddenly start moving light-footedly.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>

[ Celerity: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ]

take battle

You pick up a bone-hafted iron battle-axe.

>l

>

[Frozen Garden, Embankment]

You notice a thyril.

Obvious paths: north, northeast

>incant 509

You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Strength...

Your spell is ready.

You gesture.

You feel much stronger.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>

[ Strength: +2:01:00, 2:01:00 remaining. ]

A thyril swings a broadsword at you!

You skillfully dodge the attack!

>hurl thyr

You are unable to find an opening for your right-handed throw.

Roundtime: 1 sec.

>

hurl thyr

There is simply no way you can hurl the battle-axe from that position!

Roundtime: 5 sec.

Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.

>stand

You stand back up.

>

A thyril swings a broadsword at you!

By amazing chance, you evade the attack!

>hurl thyr

With every fiber of your being, you manage to heave a bone-hafted iron battle-axe towards your target, the resulting effort forcing you to your knees, gasping for breath!

You throw a bone-hafted iron battle-axe at a thyril!

AS: +4 vs DS: +6 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +2 = +38

A clean miss.

The iron battle-axe flies past a thyril, disappearing into the local environs.

Roundtime: 15 sec.

Roundtime changed to 12 seconds.

>sear

You spy a bone-hafted iron battle-axe that had been obscured from view!

Thanks for giving me something to research, and add to my knowledge, as well!

Doug

>>>>2) Is it intentional for the extra 1s when aiming thrown weapons to be permanent and unable to train it off? Your example of bows are bows and thrown weapons are thrown weapons doesn't answer this. You actually mention this is why thrown weapons have different formulas versus ranged weapons, but we have no official formula for thrown weapons. There is only player testing and speculation.

After reviewing all the posts, and doing my own testing on the test server, I'd offer the following.

It's a bug. Either HURL has properly implemented the round time from AIMed strikes, or FIRE (ranged) has. From a rule set perspective, these being different is just. . . wrong.

Like you, though, I'd like to see the formula, now. Hurling is. . . well, kind of fun. :) Might have to do it for a bit. I think I've seen posts by staff that suggest that thrown weapons needs work, though.

Doug

>>Hurling is correct. Ranged is bugged. Bows should not be able to fire as fast aimed as unaimed, period.

I was afraid that's how it would be viewed. Just as I'm afraid I'd have to agree, especially with the 'taking time to aim versus not' theory.

Ahh, well.

Doug

It's also worth noting that "either hurling is bugged or ranged is bugged" is really the wrong starting point for the conversation. Hurling and ranged are not the same, therefore the expectation that they should be working the same way is an assumption that is not correct. As it turns out, there is an error in ranged, but you shouldn't expect that they would work the same way. There are bugs in hurling too; welcome to Elanthia.

If it's not on the Wiki and you think it should be, then put it on the Wiki. It may be the "official" wiki, but it isn't updated by staff. It's updated by players, as many have pointed out. Maybe this is your chance to jump in and be one of them!

Kerl