Would love to see a merchant come around selling off the shelf returners. Maybe some flaring ones made of the standard flaring metals such as draker, zorchar, ect. Have some 4x blessables too. Would be great to let more people enjoy this form of combat. As it is now there are few returners and they all go for crazy amounts of money.
ARATOS
ISMANO
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 12:25 AM CDT
Fix thrown.
Returners and bandoliers (and the utterly horrible designed but cool idea chainspear) are just bandaids.
-farmer
Returners and bandoliers (and the utterly horrible designed but cool idea chainspear) are just bandaids.
-farmer
ARATOS
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 12:29 AM CDT
The idea of a real fix coming any time soon is just silly therefore more bandaids!
ROBLAR
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 12:31 AM CDT
Is GM Konacon still on staff? Still working on a thrown review?
ARATOS
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 07:52 AM CDT
>>Is GM Konacon still on staff? Still working on a thrown review?
I've seen other people ask this but so far no one from Simutronics has chimed in.
I've seen other people ask this but so far no one from Simutronics has chimed in.
ALUVIUS
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 11:14 AM CDT
Or have regular raffles/merchant services to add returning ability to thrown weapon classes only. They don't have much utility otherwise, it doesn't seem like it would be imbalancing.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 01:54 PM CDT
A simple fix would be these two steps:
Eliminate the rediculous "out of reach" delay for picking up weapons, (along with the possibility of "lost in the environs").
And,
Tag thrown weapons as tied to the thrower and not able to be picked up by critters (or anyone else) till after 2x the RT of the act of throwing is up. After that point, anyone or anything can pick them up.
Kerl
Eliminate the rediculous "out of reach" delay for picking up weapons, (along with the possibility of "lost in the environs").
And,
Tag thrown weapons as tied to the thrower and not able to be picked up by critters (or anyone else) till after 2x the RT of the act of throwing is up. After that point, anyone or anything can pick them up.
Kerl
ARATOS
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 02:53 PM CDT
I like the idea of off the shelf returns a lot more.
ISMANO
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 04:20 PM CDT
>Or have regular raffles/merchant services to add returning ability to thrown weapon classes only. They don't have much utility otherwise, it doesn't seem like it would be imbalancing.
ALUVIUS
It would be like if everyone who did ranged could only choose crossbows and the only bows that existed were ebows and gauntlet bows in the quantity that exist now. It's not really unbalancing, but it sure wouldn't help crossbows any.
>I like the idea of off the shelf returns a lot more.
ARATOS
Either everything that inspects as thrown should become a returner, or none at all. Having regular raffles for bandoliers, returning weapons, or even ethereal strings does nothing to fix the issues thrown currently has that makes it so difficult. Returners and bandoliers have always been a bandaid. Releasing more of them doesn't make anything better for thrown.
Now, if everything becomes a returner, then thrown becomes an entirely different system than it was intended to be, which starts another separate discussion entirely. It's also not something I'm entirely against, albeit with a slight change.
Thrown needs to have one of the following done to it IMO:
1) Fixed using Kerl's suggestion for example, or any number of suggestions that we've posted here (though not of the returning/bando type)
OR
2) Changed entirely so that everything becomes a bandolier and returners being the wandbow of thrown, and stringed weapons being the ebow, so to speak (which I think would be a change that is more in line with current thrown than every thrown weapon becoming a returner.
Doing half measures and bandaids isn't the approach staff should be taking.
-farmer
ALUVIUS
It would be like if everyone who did ranged could only choose crossbows and the only bows that existed were ebows and gauntlet bows in the quantity that exist now. It's not really unbalancing, but it sure wouldn't help crossbows any.
>I like the idea of off the shelf returns a lot more.
ARATOS
Either everything that inspects as thrown should become a returner, or none at all. Having regular raffles for bandoliers, returning weapons, or even ethereal strings does nothing to fix the issues thrown currently has that makes it so difficult. Returners and bandoliers have always been a bandaid. Releasing more of them doesn't make anything better for thrown.
Now, if everything becomes a returner, then thrown becomes an entirely different system than it was intended to be, which starts another separate discussion entirely. It's also not something I'm entirely against, albeit with a slight change.
Thrown needs to have one of the following done to it IMO:
1) Fixed using Kerl's suggestion for example, or any number of suggestions that we've posted here (though not of the returning/bando type)
OR
2) Changed entirely so that everything becomes a bandolier and returners being the wandbow of thrown, and stringed weapons being the ebow, so to speak (which I think would be a change that is more in line with current thrown than every thrown weapon becoming a returner.
Doing half measures and bandaids isn't the approach staff should be taking.
-farmer
ROLFARD
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 04:42 PM CDT
Introduce boomerangs. Make them hit as hard as a cudgel. Make them return most of the time with an equal chance of them not returning = to the chance of losing an arrow when fired. Make them 4x, non-enchantable, and with blessable or flaring flavors.
Then fix hurling ;)
Then fix hurling ;)
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 04:57 PM CDT
I'm all for boomerangs.
And yes, I know we have the toy ones, but functional boomerangs would be cool.
Part of the problem though, and we've discussed this adnausium as well, is that entanglement as currently written blows. Weapons that entangle should do just that, and shouldn't have wimpy, worthless DFs, or rather the DF shouldn't be a factor at all. The use of a bola for example should be nearly akin to casting the bind spell, except with an AS/DS resolution. Boomerangs should be similar, in that they don't do much damage, but they should come back half the time and knock downs should be a standard feature of their damage table.
Kerl
And yes, I know we have the toy ones, but functional boomerangs would be cool.
Part of the problem though, and we've discussed this adnausium as well, is that entanglement as currently written blows. Weapons that entangle should do just that, and shouldn't have wimpy, worthless DFs, or rather the DF shouldn't be a factor at all. The use of a bola for example should be nearly akin to casting the bind spell, except with an AS/DS resolution. Boomerangs should be similar, in that they don't do much damage, but they should come back half the time and knock downs should be a standard feature of their damage table.
Kerl
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 05:31 PM CDT
I think thrown combat is problematic in GS4 for many of the same reasons its problematic in real-life. For a thrown weapon to be very effective, it has to have some heft. That means carrying them around is a pain. Collecting them is a pain. And you absolutely must have a backup plan when the enemy closes. I'm not sure it was ever intended for thrown weapon combat to be a primary form of attack.
There are a few exceptions. Spear and javelin throwers can be remarkably effective. They face the same basic challenges and advantages as archers, regarding distance and engagement. Javelins are quite lightweight and can fly a considerable distance. Not very effective against heavy armor, but devastating against unarmored or lightly armored opponents.
Axes, hammers, daggers, etc. are basically one-off methods of attack. But of course, fantasy RPGs have sort of made these expected, usual attack options. Knives can be somewhat justified because, although they're a terribly ineffectual style of combat, they are, at least, easily carried. For axes and hammers to be really viable, you really must delve into the magical and go for a returning weapon.
I think boomerangs would be pretty awesome. And the comments on bolas are pretty on spot.
One thing I find conspicuously missing from Gemstone are slings. You know. Slings. Grab a rock, wind it up, and let it rip. David and Goliath? Every D&D cleric that ever got rolled up? Where are slings? Weird. It's only the most ancient ranged weapon known to mankind, with the sole exception of picking up a rock and throwing it. And actually quite effective, too.
Anyway, I'm just rambling out loud. Carry on.
~ Heathyr and friends
There are a few exceptions. Spear and javelin throwers can be remarkably effective. They face the same basic challenges and advantages as archers, regarding distance and engagement. Javelins are quite lightweight and can fly a considerable distance. Not very effective against heavy armor, but devastating against unarmored or lightly armored opponents.
Axes, hammers, daggers, etc. are basically one-off methods of attack. But of course, fantasy RPGs have sort of made these expected, usual attack options. Knives can be somewhat justified because, although they're a terribly ineffectual style of combat, they are, at least, easily carried. For axes and hammers to be really viable, you really must delve into the magical and go for a returning weapon.
I think boomerangs would be pretty awesome. And the comments on bolas are pretty on spot.
One thing I find conspicuously missing from Gemstone are slings. You know. Slings. Grab a rock, wind it up, and let it rip. David and Goliath? Every D&D cleric that ever got rolled up? Where are slings? Weird. It's only the most ancient ranged weapon known to mankind, with the sole exception of picking up a rock and throwing it. And actually quite effective, too.
Anyway, I'm just rambling out loud. Carry on.
~ Heathyr and friends
ISMANO
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 05:51 PM CDT
>boomarangs
Sure, I'd be for them.
>I think thrown combat is problematic in GS4 for many of the same reasons its problematic in real-life. For a thrown weapon to be very effective, it has to have some heft. That means carrying them around is a pain. Collecting them is a pain. And you absolutely must have a backup plan when the enemy closes. I'm not sure it was ever intended for thrown weapon combat to be a primary form of attack.
~ Heathyr and friends
Most of these aren't really translatable to GS, though. Weapon weight doesn't really have anything to do with how effective a thrown weapon is. A discus can weigh the same as a handaxe but have wildly different results. In fact, more heft (the awesome mattock bandolier!!111) could actually be argued to make thrown less effective due to RT. The enemy doesn't get any closer or farther away either. And thrown was supposed to be a primary form of attack.
>One thing I find conspicuously missing from Gemstone are slings. You know. Slings. Grab a rock, wind it up, and let it rip.
I think I've seen a creatures use them before. It might have been an invasion creature though. Slings seem easy enough to do, though thinking about it, it almost seems like it would need ranged and thrown (like katars) to use effectively. Then there's the matter of environmental room changes so that we actually have rocks and stones and pebbles on the ground. I wouldn't mind sling, or boomerangs, or even blowguns like Trali have (which aren't ranged/thrown I know, but still something you'd think GS would have).
-farmer
Sure, I'd be for them.
>I think thrown combat is problematic in GS4 for many of the same reasons its problematic in real-life. For a thrown weapon to be very effective, it has to have some heft. That means carrying them around is a pain. Collecting them is a pain. And you absolutely must have a backup plan when the enemy closes. I'm not sure it was ever intended for thrown weapon combat to be a primary form of attack.
~ Heathyr and friends
Most of these aren't really translatable to GS, though. Weapon weight doesn't really have anything to do with how effective a thrown weapon is. A discus can weigh the same as a handaxe but have wildly different results. In fact, more heft (the awesome mattock bandolier!!111) could actually be argued to make thrown less effective due to RT. The enemy doesn't get any closer or farther away either. And thrown was supposed to be a primary form of attack.
>One thing I find conspicuously missing from Gemstone are slings. You know. Slings. Grab a rock, wind it up, and let it rip.
I think I've seen a creatures use them before. It might have been an invasion creature though. Slings seem easy enough to do, though thinking about it, it almost seems like it would need ranged and thrown (like katars) to use effectively. Then there's the matter of environmental room changes so that we actually have rocks and stones and pebbles on the ground. I wouldn't mind sling, or boomerangs, or even blowguns like Trali have (which aren't ranged/thrown I know, but still something you'd think GS would have).
-farmer
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 07:01 PM CDT
<<I think thrown combat is problematic in GS4 for many of the same reasons its problematic in real-life. For a thrown weapon to be very effective, it has to have some heft. That means carrying them around is a pain. Collecting them is a pain. And you absolutely must have a backup plan when the enemy closes. I'm not sure it was ever intended for thrown weapon combat to be a primary form of attack. ~ Heathyr and friends>>
I think your first sentence there isn't very factually accurate. Weapons have been thrown in combat by many different cultures throughout history, and even more so as a form of hunting. And while it may have been an after thought in GS, so was ranged, and today ranged is probably the most deadly form of physical combat in GS from a general standpoint. Growing Pains and GS4 changed a ton of things in Gemstone for the better, making thrown possible, and ranged very viable are just two of those.
<<Axes, hammers, daggers, etc. are basically one-off methods of attack. But of course, fantasy RPGs have sort of made these expected, usual attack options. Knives can be somewhat justified because, although they're a terribly ineffectual style of combat, they are, at least, easily carried. For axes and hammers to be really viable, you really must delve into the magical and go for a returning weapon. -more Heathyr and co>>
Obviously true, though again, axes and daggers have been used as a thrown weapon for many centuries, and since we do play a fantasy game with magic and all, why would you expect anything but delving into the magical?
On slings, I agree 100%. Additionally, I've long advocated for just being able to pick up a rock or a brick and throw it, even if just for entertainment value and not for much combat effectiveness.
Kerl
I think your first sentence there isn't very factually accurate. Weapons have been thrown in combat by many different cultures throughout history, and even more so as a form of hunting. And while it may have been an after thought in GS, so was ranged, and today ranged is probably the most deadly form of physical combat in GS from a general standpoint. Growing Pains and GS4 changed a ton of things in Gemstone for the better, making thrown possible, and ranged very viable are just two of those.
<<Axes, hammers, daggers, etc. are basically one-off methods of attack. But of course, fantasy RPGs have sort of made these expected, usual attack options. Knives can be somewhat justified because, although they're a terribly ineffectual style of combat, they are, at least, easily carried. For axes and hammers to be really viable, you really must delve into the magical and go for a returning weapon. -more Heathyr and co>>
Obviously true, though again, axes and daggers have been used as a thrown weapon for many centuries, and since we do play a fantasy game with magic and all, why would you expect anything but delving into the magical?
On slings, I agree 100%. Additionally, I've long advocated for just being able to pick up a rock or a brick and throw it, even if just for entertainment value and not for much combat effectiveness.
Kerl
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 07:18 PM CDT
<<<I think your first sentence there isn't very factually accurate. Weapons have been thrown in combat by many different cultures throughout history, and even more so as a form of hunting.>>>
That's true, and I did make exceptions for that. But generally speaking, throwing a weapon at an enemy isn't a very effective or practical means of attack. An axe thrower might get one, maybe two throws off before closing with an opponent. Same for a hammer. Knife-throwing is flashy but not terribly practical in real situations. This is coming from a girl who's a pretty fair shot with a throwing knife (or at least used to be, it's been a few years). It's a fun idea, but with only a few rare exceptions, isn't very effective. It's a good method of throwing your weapon away. You're actually better off strapping your knife to a stick and chucking it as a spear (no joke).
But I understand this is a fantasy RPG, and within that genre it's generally accepted/expected that thrown weapons can be both practical and effective. Clearly, that is not presently the case in GS4.
<<<Additionally, I've long advocated for just being able to pick up a rock or a brick and throw it, even if just for entertainment value and not for much combat effectiveness.>>>
That would be great. I also wish disrupted limbs (via 708) could be picked up and tossed at critters. Believe me, I've tried.
~ Heathyr
That's true, and I did make exceptions for that. But generally speaking, throwing a weapon at an enemy isn't a very effective or practical means of attack. An axe thrower might get one, maybe two throws off before closing with an opponent. Same for a hammer. Knife-throwing is flashy but not terribly practical in real situations. This is coming from a girl who's a pretty fair shot with a throwing knife (or at least used to be, it's been a few years). It's a fun idea, but with only a few rare exceptions, isn't very effective. It's a good method of throwing your weapon away. You're actually better off strapping your knife to a stick and chucking it as a spear (no joke).
But I understand this is a fantasy RPG, and within that genre it's generally accepted/expected that thrown weapons can be both practical and effective. Clearly, that is not presently the case in GS4.
<<<Additionally, I've long advocated for just being able to pick up a rock or a brick and throw it, even if just for entertainment value and not for much combat effectiveness.>>>
That would be great. I also wish disrupted limbs (via 708) could be picked up and tossed at critters. Believe me, I've tried.
~ Heathyr
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 07:23 PM CDT
<<<And thrown was supposed to be a primary form of attack.>>>
Maybe, but it certainly doesn't seem like it, given the current implementation.
<<<I think I've seen a creatures use them before. It might have been an invasion creature though. Slings seem easy enough to do, though thinking about it, it almost seems like it would need ranged and thrown (like katars) to use effectively. Then there's the matter of environmental room changes so that we actually have rocks and stones and pebbles on the ground. I wouldn't mind sling, or boomerangs, or even blowguns like Trali have (which aren't ranged/thrown I know, but still something you'd think GS would have).>>>>
The ranged + thrown idea makes sense, but I think I'd like to see slings firmly planted in the Thrown category. It could be argued either way, but it's different enough from archery that it could be justified, and would give a lot more substance to the Thrown Weapon skill.
~ Heathyr and friends
Maybe, but it certainly doesn't seem like it, given the current implementation.
<<<I think I've seen a creatures use them before. It might have been an invasion creature though. Slings seem easy enough to do, though thinking about it, it almost seems like it would need ranged and thrown (like katars) to use effectively. Then there's the matter of environmental room changes so that we actually have rocks and stones and pebbles on the ground. I wouldn't mind sling, or boomerangs, or even blowguns like Trali have (which aren't ranged/thrown I know, but still something you'd think GS would have).>>>>
The ranged + thrown idea makes sense, but I think I'd like to see slings firmly planted in the Thrown category. It could be argued either way, but it's different enough from archery that it could be justified, and would give a lot more substance to the Thrown Weapon skill.
~ Heathyr and friends
ALUVIUS
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 07:29 PM CDT
>It would be like if everyone who did ranged could only choose crossbows and the only bows that existed were ebows and gauntlet bows in the quantity that exist now. It's not really unbalancing, but it sure wouldn't help crossbows any.
Err, isn't that the case with hurling currently? Currently hurling consists of off the shelf crossbows and a few 50 million ebows. How would my suggestion of making more ebows out of existing crossbows not help what you describe? Making all thrown weapons ebows (returners) as you suggested would also be great, I just assume that would be out of the realm of possibility.* :)
*Note: I am aware that crossbows/ebows are not used in hurling, but it was an apt metaphor so I ran with it hehe.
ISMANO
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/19/2013 08:08 PM CDT
>Additionally, I've long advocated for just being able to pick up a rock or a brick and throw it, even if just for entertainment value and not for much combat effectiveness.
Kerl
Rocks? Hell, I've thrown (heh) up several different ideas for Thrown Shield Cmans (Captain America style) multiple times and I know I'm not the only one.
>I also wish disrupted limbs (via 708) could be picked up and tossed at critters. Believe me, I've tried.
~ Heathyr
When you could swing disrupted limbs and they counted as a cudgel?, you could throw them and hit people.
>How would my suggestion of making more ebows out of existing crossbows not help what you describe?
ALUVIUS
To continue the metaphor..
It would help a handful of people each year, yes, but ranged would still suck. Because crossbows generally suck. And nobody would train in ranged unless they had the super toy or were miserable hardcore enthusiasts. Wouldn't it be better if staff could have the time to spend to actually release bows and make ranged a really good usable overall skill for every profession? (Currently any profession can do pretty damn good with a bow)
Thrown shouldn't require fancy toys to make it a really usable* hunting style. Fancy toys, to belabor a point, are just patches to cover up issues inherent to the skill itself, not real fixes. It's needlessly complicated now. Buggy# too. No other combat skill requires as much tedium, effort and character danger as thrown does with no real balancing 'uberness' benefit to show for it
*Which isn't to say it isn't viable with off the shelf equipment. It is. I've done it. But it's horrendously difficult and shouldn't be.
#For example: encumbrance and TWC throwing. And encumbrance in general compared to archery just makes me a sad panda
-farmer
Kerl
Rocks? Hell, I've thrown (heh) up several different ideas for Thrown Shield Cmans (Captain America style) multiple times and I know I'm not the only one.
>I also wish disrupted limbs (via 708) could be picked up and tossed at critters. Believe me, I've tried.
~ Heathyr
When you could swing disrupted limbs and they counted as a cudgel?, you could throw them and hit people.
>How would my suggestion of making more ebows out of existing crossbows not help what you describe?
ALUVIUS
To continue the metaphor..
It would help a handful of people each year, yes, but ranged would still suck. Because crossbows generally suck. And nobody would train in ranged unless they had the super toy or were miserable hardcore enthusiasts. Wouldn't it be better if staff could have the time to spend to actually release bows and make ranged a really good usable overall skill for every profession? (Currently any profession can do pretty damn good with a bow)
Thrown shouldn't require fancy toys to make it a really usable* hunting style. Fancy toys, to belabor a point, are just patches to cover up issues inherent to the skill itself, not real fixes. It's needlessly complicated now. Buggy# too. No other combat skill requires as much tedium, effort and character danger as thrown does with no real balancing 'uberness' benefit to show for it
*Which isn't to say it isn't viable with off the shelf equipment. It is. I've done it. But it's horrendously difficult and shouldn't be.
#For example: encumbrance and TWC throwing. And encumbrance in general compared to archery just makes me a sad panda
-farmer
KRAKII
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/20/2013 09:13 AM CDT
"entanglement as currently written blows. Weapons that entangle should do just that, and shouldn't have wimpy, worthless DFs, or rather the DF shouldn't be a factor at all." -- Kerl
I suggested, years ago, that all bolas (and nets, and probably even whips) should have something like +80 to +120 crit weighting (double or triple a claidhmore), simply because their DF means that they will essentially never actually generate a crit.
Either that, or make them like feras: they always flare, if they hit.
Then, set up the Entanglement crit type table with greater and lesser degress of knockdown or other capability [standing + weapon or shield entangled, standing + legs unable to move (reduce or eliminate Dodge and E portion of EBP), kneeling plus one or more effect, prone plus one or more effect, and so on] and totally remove any other crit type from those weapons [I think bolas can do Krush?].
As it stands right now, with crit tied to Damage inflicted, a bola or net will NEVER do anything useful against a target in plate... who ought to be the most helpless against it.
I suggested, years ago, that all bolas (and nets, and probably even whips) should have something like +80 to +120 crit weighting (double or triple a claidhmore), simply because their DF means that they will essentially never actually generate a crit.
Either that, or make them like feras: they always flare, if they hit.
Then, set up the Entanglement crit type table with greater and lesser degress of knockdown or other capability [standing + weapon or shield entangled, standing + legs unable to move (reduce or eliminate Dodge and E portion of EBP), kneeling plus one or more effect, prone plus one or more effect, and so on] and totally remove any other crit type from those weapons [I think bolas can do Krush?].
As it stands right now, with crit tied to Damage inflicted, a bola or net will NEVER do anything useful against a target in plate... who ought to be the most helpless against it.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Off the shelf returners.
03/20/2013 03:12 PM CDT
Your idea Krakii may be the simplest way to achieve the desired result, or something closer to it than we are today, but I'd rather that they rewrite the whole way entanglement works, rather than rely on crossing a crit threshold that they just aren't going to be able to cross in most cases.
Kerl
Kerl
