no we've posted about this before. I know I have at least, and I'm pretty sure others have also.

it's sad that they can release hunting improvements to demons and then not let us take our demons hunting

~Moredin

>>some one was nice enough to give me a rune for it a while back but that will soon be gone and i can't make them myself. Would be nice to get some use out of it seeing as my sorcerer mostly hunts camps.

I'm happy to draw arashan or darkling runes if you bring me prepared stones (as will most with special rune knowledge, asking never hurts anyone). I can be found in Icemule mostly, sometimes the Landing.

~Allereli

I'm happy to provide shien'tyr-shien runes as well if needed. Just find me in Illistim. Slap me around though. I've been so distracted with work that it may take a minute. =) Just bring runestones.

Rontuu

I don't think they'll make warcamps "locate-friendly" and not sure why other pets aren't held to that same standard.

Same reason sorcs have component heavy spells.

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

In order to prepare us for the ritual heavy lesser or major demon summonings?

Player of Malisai

>>I believe Icemule Trace has no issues with demons in town. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct. Demons are okay on Teras too if you purchase a demon permit.

Peace
Zhelas

---

(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

I don't really see the reasoning behind why a town would be like that though.

<shrug>

-GM Marstreforn-
(just call me Mars if you can't spell it)

Allow me to be the first to say, "huh?"

~ HH

My take is that Doug is suggesting a "town" that is more sorcerer friendly and less tolerant of others. A place where "evil" is preferred and "good" is shunned. The idea that came into my head was some sort of hidden gathering spot for practitioners of sorcery and other dark magics that is frequented enough that a small economy has taken root there. Similar to a pirate town but for sorcerers.

-- Robert

Much to your horror, a devastating inferno of flaming rocks ignite the entire sky and smite the area!

from the Discussions with Simu board (complaints #4998 and #5005):

>>Demons can't follow people into areas where they can't be located (as per the spell Locate Person). The shround around warcamps prevents locates and therefore prevents demons from following anyone into a warcamp.

>>Coase

>>I can do something about it (though it will not be to allow locate in warcamps, since that is entirely contrary to the basic concept of the shroud), but I would like to discuss it with the team first.

>>Coase


Posting for those who did not see the posts. While I am of course happy the issue is getting looked at, the initial "cannot follow where you cannot locate" rule does not make sense, as you cannot locate people in guilds, where demons most certainly do follow.

I'm always open for new ideas.

However, I don't see any logical reason why demons would be preferred in a civilized town over a spirit of some kind. Even the spiritualists who worship a Lornon Arkati have spirits that follow them around.

I've never really seen it as a good vs evil, either. It's more of a fear of demons in certain societies. They have a history.

I can fully understand why sorcerers might feel like they are forced to deal with consequences/hardships that other professions don't have to endure to gain similar benefits.

I am also not the sorcerer guru. But I like to keep the thinking juices flowing in regards to certain professions that have concerns, so when something is considered a problem by a group of players we can keep the feedback constructive. I apologize if my previous post was a bit short and to the point, but I guess the idea just didn't really make sense to me at the time.

As far as I know, there are no plans to make any new towns. So I don't believe the option to have a new "demonically focused" town is going to be possible. Best idea I could suggest would be to appeal to how demons can be useful with an in-character approach in the game. Might be a lot of fun.

Has anyone created an MHO dedicated to the research of demons? That might be an option for you, since the Tier 3 structures can be built outside the laws of town.

-GM Marstreforn-
(just call me Mars if you can't spell it)

>>I do think that It should be possible to pay some fee or some such to take a test or something so we can bring demons in different towns.

Well folks will probably say.. that is what the sorcerer guild is for with guild fees and to master illusions.. wait I need to restate this because we are not master illusionists. We are to master an illusion to mask our demon.

Unfortunately for Zhelas he didn't finish illusions before alchemy came on board. Now he will probably never finish illusions because he refuses to suffer the reps of alchemy. I know this is personal choice.

Towns like Teras already have us pay a nominal fee of 10k to get a demon permit so we don't have to mask our demons. And it has a monthly renewal of 8k.

Peace
Zhelas

---

(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

Robert pegged it, Marstreforn's point about developing towns versus MHOs is significant, the drag on sorcerers in this regard is disenheartening, and. . .

How about if an existing town (perhaps one of the human towns or maybe Zul -- heh) had a 'dark section' redesign done that allowed demons unfettered and made opposed summoned NPC helpers 'uncomfortable'. That 'dark section' would have a sorcerer only means of egress specifically to / from the dark section, etc. Not a guild. More a town within an existing town.

Marstreforn's point about Lornon Arkati is a great guidepost -- two sides of the same coin, but interestingly I think a case can be made based on the docs that only select of the Arkati would even be comfortable in the presence of demonic influence. It's not a 'good versus evil' thing, but a 'tolerance and society' thing. The problem is the tolerance and society thing is implemented very much in a unidirectional fashion. The challenge is to find a way to provide some pocket(s) of relief in that. . . as I see it. I like the suggestion of player-induced opportunities, but that doesn't speak to the mechanical discrepancies in total.

Not the most glamorous solution, admittedly. Might even be a bit over-zealous. Hopefully an anchor to get even better ideas.

Doug

>>I know other sorcerers have been more than helpful and accommodating with drawing runes for other folks.....but Mal as a self respecting Demonologist isnt going to run to another sorcerer to have runes made

This was one primary reason why Zhelas became a Necromancer. Sereg, an outstanding demonologist with over 202 ranks of demonology, didn't even have an uncommon rune. Someone would draw his Abyran'sa runestones.

Getting back to the original post though

For a level 25 spell not letting a demon, which is a pet,into a warcamp seems counter productive. I am sure the comment about locating folks has some validation. I am sure it was to prevent messages to being sent to someone while they were in warcamp... fair enough.

However...

Animal companions can't track folks in warcampsm probably for the same reason as locating folks..

but..

an animal companion can follow a ranger inside and attack, guard etc.

With the addition of Baelfire, it would be nice to have the perk of the demon bonus.

Peace
Zhelas

---

(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

>>In general it seems like experiences with demons are generally either neutral or bad, never good.

Agreed. And again, a tolerance discussion versus a like discussion in my mind -- Marstreforn put it perfectly.

Doug

I don't really have a problem with demons being against the law in most towns. I don't see a point in creating special "sorcerer only" areas, like dog parks for demons to run amok. Even in the company of other sorcerers, most sorcerers are private and reserved about openly sharing their secrets. This is a dark art, shunned by the overwhelming majority of society. While sorcerers may rally against the social stigma against them, it is doubtful something like that would change in the course of the few years any of us actually play the game. Even 20 years is insignificant in the lives of elves, and demons will likely never be accepted to any great degree in the known lands. I suspect even Icemule, which has no specific laws against demons, probably tolerates them only to avoid raising the ire of the powerful sorcerers who pass through town.

What I would like to see improved upon are the mechanics regarding demons. While it is perfectly logical that demons are shady, shunned and illegal, the facts that we can't seem to keep them from following us into town, and can't get them to follow us OUT of town (like into warcamps) are mechanical, artificial limitations. Also, it is fairly unreasonable from a player point of view to expect all demon-summoning sorcerers to Master a guild skill to use their "pets" to the same degree as a familiar, or animal companion.

That said, I agree that demons are somewhat powerful as pets go--they can hold objects like Spirit Servants, they can scout an area like (actually better than) Animal Companions, they can locate people (with EyeSpy) like Wizard Familiars. Furthermore, they can hold mana, deliver messages, catch pickpockets, and add power to Balefire. Say what you will, but that is a lot of power for a companion spell. SOME additional effort is surely justified.

But having to master Illusions may be overkill. Basically, it puts the spell nearly out of reach for a majority of players who don't have the time to devote hours upon hours to guild work. Some people actually LIKE the game. ;)

Maybe I'll feel differently if I ever manage to master. But I have something like 11 ranks of illusions now, and I started working on it in 2007. Granted, I took a few years off...but that just means I'm that much farther behind everyone else, especially considering I've played this character since the mid 90s and I'm still far, far, far away from cap. At my present rate of growth, I MIGHT make cap by 2020, and maybe master illusions by the time Obama's second term is over.

This wouldn't be so bad if the inability to use unmasked demons in town wasn't so crippling to the spell. Many of the features of demons are normally ONLY useful in town, like catching thieves and delivering messages. And if you send your demon off to find a body, you just know that by the time it gets there the body will be in TSC and you're going to get arrested. I'm lucky, I belong to a house (Sylvanfair) where I spend a great deal of time. CHEs are off-limits to local law enforcement. But still, the utility of the spell is severely hampered, at least in the Landing.

Demons are limited in a second way, by the uncommon rarity of "uncommon" runes. All I've ever wanted was the imp rune. My character was involved in a storyline involving an imp several years back, so she has a unique affinity to the creatures. They are, arguably, the least "evil" of the demons to summon as they are subservient to the Griks, and summoning them may actually be doing them a favor. While still powerful in their own right, they are relatively harmless by demon standards. If there is a person in the lands who should know how to summon an imp, it's my character. But I'm forced to beg for imp runes, or just roll the dice and hope I don't draw too many griks in a row. While I totally agree that uncommon runes should be...well, uncommon...they shouldn't be outright impossible.

I'm not sure what the solution regarding Illusions is. I honestly don't see that there is one, as I'm sure the sorcerers who put in all the hours of mind-numbing guild work to master illusions would be livid if it suddenly got too much easier for others. It simply wouldn't be fair. But then again, maybe it's unfair to expect others to sacrifice their enjoyment of a game they have limited time to play (and spend not insignificant money on).

No, I have no answers here. Consider this merely food for thought and further discussion. In the meantime, I'd love to keep working on illusions, if I could find appropriate partners to teach and learn from. As for alchemy, I think I have enough ranks to complete illusions (I worked on it quite a bit when it was new, back around 2007). I hope so, because I seriously don't want to get into that mess at this point in my life. Life's complicated enough as it is, I come here to ESCAPE. ;)

BTW: If anybody knows the imp rune, I'd love to get a few runestones made...

Best regards,

~ Heathyr and friends

>Summoning runes cost what....6k for the potion if you draw your own?

pretty sure the "stock" demon runestones, including vakra, cost less than that. I don't think they last quite as long but the cost is comparable and I don't really think there's a pressing need to establish that for certain.

but the stones are not available for purchase in all guilds as they should be.

~Moredin

>>At guild mastery (125 ranks +1 skill mastered)--and illusions must be one of the skills mastered--a sorcerer should be granted an uncommon rune of choice with no teachings. As Heathyr said, the amount of time illusions/the guild take to master is overkill, there should be a great reward, and I don't see how this would be overpowering to the profession.

If this was the case I would dig out my cauldron and start boiling water.

Peace
Zhelas

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(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

>If this was the case I would dig out my cauldron and start boiling water.

Agreed.

-Jurp

PS. Though I'm in no rush to boil water. IMO Alchemy is worse by far than guild work for squares...primarily in the sheer volume of junk you need to practice. It requires dedication, rather than something that can be comfortably done between hunts to pass time and potentially interact with others.

>Alchemy is worse by far than guild work for squares...primarily in the sheer volume of junk you need to practice.

agreed. I wouldn't have been able to do alchemy without a premium account and house lockers. simple statement of truth. guild work IS supposed to be something you can do between hunts. it takes me 10 minutes just to get "set up" to start working on alchemy, as is. MUCH MORE if I don't have the reagents in a locker already, obviously.

~Moredin