So I argued for this pretty vehemently back when Illusions were first being released, and I feel like it's time to bring it back up again. Given how intimately connected Illusions and 725 are, it's worth some consideration.

Right now, you have to go through all of the fluff illusions before you get any demon illusions. Ironically, the guild system is stacked in a way that makes it almost impossible to master it at lower levels- which effectively puts 725 out of reach for sorcerers who have just learned it. But there's no reason why all of the demon illusions have to be grouped at the end.

Right Now, the ranking progression looks like this:

Rank 1: Learn Rose Illusion
Rank 7: Learn Vortex Illusion
Rank 15: Learn Maelstrom Illusion
Rank 25: Learn Void Illusion
Rank 37: Learn Shadow Illusion
Rank 48: Learn Igaesha Illusion
Rank 53: Learn Imp and Shien Illusion
Rank 54: Learn Verlok Illusion
Rank 55: Learn Grantris Illusion
Rank 58: Learn Aishan Illusion
Rank 60: Learn Arashan Illusion
Rank 63: Learn Imp and Abyran Illusions

You don't actually get any 725 functionality until rank 48. For most folks that's too much work, even at very high levels. So how about we approach it this way instead:

Rank 1: Learn Rose Illusion
Rank 1: Learn Illusion Igaesha
Rank 7: Learn Vortex Illusion
Rank 8: Learn Illusion Verlok
Rank 15: Learn Maelstrom Illusion
Rank 17: Learn Illusion Grantris
Rank 25: Learn Void Illusion
Rank 26: Learn Illusion Grik
Rank 33: Learn Illusion Arashan
Rank 37: Learn Shadow Illusion
Rank 41: Learn Illusion Shien
Rank 49: Learn Illusion Imp
Rank 57: Learn Illusion Aishan
Rank 64: Learn Illusion Abyran

None of the other tasks need to change, the core of progression is maintained. But we allow lower level sorcerers a chance to use 725 before their 50s (and it really makes the fact that valence runestones give a randomized demon a bigger deal). We would also make it a lot easier to master Illusions. You need small rewards built in throughout the progression so it's easier for people to approach this in chunks.

So...can we do this tomorrow?

>If we were allow you to illusion any demon at rank 1, what other benefits could there be to still promote training up the guild skill?

I've always asked for a choice of uncommon rune at guild mastery and illusions, but after a couple of years of Lord Vathon, I'd definitely have to ask for more.

the other illusions should be given more function. I actually use shadow and void a lot, I like playing with rose and the fixes/nightmare choice helped a lot, but vortex and maelstrom are totally useless.

While I support anything that expands the usefulness of Illusions as a skill, I would not be in favor of the ability to place illusions on demons at low ranks. If you want that ability, you have to work for it. Nobody likes guild work, it's meant to be a hassle. The time and effort required to master a skill is what gives the skill value.

I also disagree with the premise that Minor Summoning is valueless until mastering illusions. Is it better with illusions? Absolutely! But prior to mastering, I still kept a demon summoned pretty much 24/7 and used it constantly. I simply made a conscious effort to keep my pet out of town. Yes, I messed up and got arrested several times, and although I may have bitched about it at the time...I still sort of loved it, too. Mechanics like these may not be "convenient", but they are part of what give the world flavor and depth, and slapping a big fat easy button on them kills another slice of that experience.

If you want to illusion your demon, please start working on illusions. It's not that bad. Compared to other guild skills (I'm looking at you, alchemy) it's a breeze.

~ GtG (and minions)

>Mechanics like these may not be "convenient", but they are part of what give the world flavor and depth, and slapping a big fat easy button on them kills another slice of that experience.

I mastered alchemy and it was made easier to master twice after. it's extremely frustrating and I absolutely agree with your argument, but something does have to be done. The people I mastered under are all long gone and I honestly I don't have the time that they did, or I did back then, to keep that type of dedication to helping going. I would rather see guild training wall mechanics go away, but if this way comes with more useful illusions or benefits, at least that's something.

Be careful with the "I did it, and it was hell so everyone else should have to go through hell. It makes me value it!" philosophy. Those of us who mastered Illusions are in the minority for a reason. The point here is for the spell to be used, and for being a sorcerer to be fun. As much as I defended the Nilven-era of Sorcery (which I still maintain was sheer brilliance), there are a LOT of sorcerers today who have never bothered with 725, 730, or even 714. That's tragic.

I honestly don't want a new sorcerer to have to go through what I went through (and go through) to make the most out of their profession. I did it and would do it again, as would many of those on this forum, but we're the exceptions, not the rule.

<what other benefits could there be to still promote training up the guild skill?>

How about the ability to bind a particular demon to yourself similar to ranger companions or weapon bonding?

Those without advanced Illusions training could still use runestones to summon demons from various valances, but once reaching a certain point in Illusions training, you could bind a demon you'd summoned to you. The bound demon could be summoned at will without a runestone OR you could use a runestone to summon something else if you needed to (but still only have one at a time).

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

I would like to see some life brought back into Illusions.

I dislike the fact that I didn't get my lazy butt in gear and master illusions BEFORE alchemy.

No I have to diversify.... I am sorry... but no thanks.

I might get back to alchemy when Savants are released.

Peace
Zhelas

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(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

Sheesh. . .

Ok, yeah - so, Marstreforn; about the wizard profession. . .

Nice ideas.

Doug

And here I was thinking it would be a hoot if a certain, select halfling sorcerer were to use this to be a dark-elf, and penetrate the inner circle. . .

Ahh, the possibilities! Put it on a spendy scroll and auction it? Hah!

Doug

Eating your own rose should allow you to see through illusions?

Peace
Zhelas

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(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?

>4) Phantom Demonology ranks that factor into things like carrying capacity, stored mana capacity, etc. (Much as Guild versions of CMANS end up giving additional phantom CMAN ranks when using those ranks over simply learning them through the CMAN skill system)

I liked this idea in particular.

I should point out that in the modern times (call it the last several years), I'm as dedicated or more dedicated to guild skills than most sorcerers (or there are people who I just never work with). I also don't level my sorcerer very fast by most people's accounting (certainly not my own). Level 92 and at about 42 ranks of Illusions. The idea of mixing the demon illusions in with the other skills is a fantastic idea in my opinion. 725 is really janky when most towns won't allow it.

>(1212) Shroud of Deception

That's fair but there's a lot of confusing stuff between sorcery and mental spheres. Forget (703) was downscaled [for no real reason IMO] and renamed Corrupt Essence (703). Yet Quake is still an illusion. Floating Eye is also an illusion. Instilling fear can also be argued as a "mental" ability if one likes. And there's umm...the entire "Illusions" guild skill this thread discusses. So as much as the specific proposal about changing the sorcerer's appearance seems to be the same as Shroud of Deception, illusions are our domain and if we can make another planar entity look like a toucan from Fruit Loops, is it really a stretch to make a halfling look like a dwarf (eew, my underwear would start smelling bad)?

Permanent illusion (well, let's say without duration when it's turned on) would be good. Heck even summoning in town should be okay: "for my next trick, I will pull a wild dog out of a cloud of smoke!" though in practice a summoning chamber outside JUSTICE is the smarter move anyway.

How about illusions masters have some ability to teach uncommon runes? Some kind of limitation is certainly justified, but I like the RP perspective if nothing else. Or maybe we can learn more uncommon runes? I prefer the teaching part, since I like the flavor of selecting your favorite runes and then sharing them more than knowing piles and piles of runes.

>How about the ability to bind a particular demon to yourself similar to ranger companions or weapon bonding?

Yep, I like this, too. It could allow for just casting 725 without any gadgets and boom here's my good buddy so-and-so. A little bonding and stuff that isn't utterly tedious but just takes some time (uuh...I don't know if they like to be pet, and only some of them seem to like eating junk but...I dunno, something so we gain their trust or whatever). If we gain the trust of a particular demon, we shouldn't need to threaten it to keep it under control. Maybe it likes taking vacations to Elanthia to hang out with it's strange new friend?

I like where this thread is going...

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Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

The trick of making demons look like something else and justice falling for it really strains my suspension of disbelief.

I'm generally in favor of what you are all proposing. The payoff has never been worth the ordeal for me.


<<Second, maybe I'm biased, but whatever lore documents are available (and some in game NPC events) seem to support that the Faendryl Basilica is in charge of sorcerer magic and the guild. So while I like the idea, is this something that the Basilica would approve of? ... Anyway, it ties in to a discussion Silvean and I were having the other day about how the Faendryl culture is so tied into sorcery as a profession.>> - VANKRASN

I wish it had not been done that way, I would have done almost the opposite of what they did in that document. There would have been some insignificant guild associations on the edge of civilization that fortune hunters use, and our spell circles (and professions) would have been just one possible convention within a much broader setting of NPC magic.

I guess I'm biased toward the "forbidden knowledge" ideal, where it would not even make sense to have a regulator of "dark magic."


<<That's fair but there's a lot of confusing stuff between sorcery and mental spheres. Forget (703) was downscaled [for no real reason IMO] and renamed Corrupt Essence (703). Yet Quake is still an illusion. Floating Eye is also an illusion. Instilling fear can also be argued as a "mental" ability if one likes. And there's umm...the entire "Illusions" guild skill this thread discusses.>> - DAID

This came up recently in another thread. I have always held that malevolent mental effects fall under our "destruction of animate matter" clause.

Turning yourself into a frog? Mentalism. Turning someone else into a frog? Sorcery. What we do might as well be inverted mentalism.

- Xorus' player

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>A monastic lich points a skeletal finger at you and exclaims, "Your soul is forfeit!"

As mentioned above, there has been some debate in the past over sorcery and illusions because it was decided that such abilities would be part of the mental sphere of magic. Currently there is an unimplemented spell in the Minor Mental Circle called Shroud of Deception (1212) that will let you disguise your features. I don't have a philosophical point of view on this because, if I did, it would an ambiguously IC statement. GMs will need to decide what they think about the relationship between illusions and sorcery for their own reasons and then we can generate whatever IC response to that decision we want. As it stands, I don't think there is any mechanical or logical problem with sorcerers having some access to illusions as a guild skill or illusory spell effects like Eye Spy and Quake even if the mental sphere is completed.

On the issue of the relationship between sorcerer guilds and the Faendryl government; we don't know much about it. It would be nice if we had a new document to clear up some of the obvious questions. I have made suggestions about this before without a positive response.

Illusion Ideas

1. Allow sorcerers to alter their appearance using traits borrowed from their summoned demons. For example, you could use this skill on a verlok and end up with the temporary appearance of having a mechanical hand. If used on an abyran, you might end up with scaly skin or a forked tongue.

2. Allow sorcerers to detach their own shadow in some cleverly described way. This would work only outside during the day. The result could be another fluff effect or provide some small mechanical function at GM discretion.

3. Sorcerers have an ability to Curse (715) others. I would like a RP ability to use when pronouncing broader curses. So, an illusion providing a voice change and some unpredictable special effects while chanting something like, "Before the sun sets on her sixteenth birthday, she will prick her finger on the spindle of a spinning wheel, and fall into a sleep like death! A sleep from which she will never awaken!"

4. I once suggested an illusion ability that creates a mirror that functions normally when peered at but shows the viewer's "true self" when gazed into.

5. I don't know if it's an illusion idea but we don't have anything currently related to demonic pacts or contracts. Perhaps sorcerers could gain an ability to oversee the writing of contracts between players that are sealed with demonic energy. Alternatively, we could forge our own pacts with unknown forces.

6. None of our current illusions are necromancy related. Perhaps one that shows people an image of their own corpse, etc. Or another that borrows traits from undead similar to #1 above.

I'd say the biggest problem with the illusion skill is that there's only one skill that anyone really really wants and it's at the end. There should be more semi-useful things woven in with the non-mechanical things. Other than that my main complaints have to do with the guild system itself rather than the Illusion skill in and of itself.

I've been thinking back to when it was mentioned about giving demon illusions at the first rank of Illusions, but having some sort of drive to also finish the skill set.

Perhaps some sort of non-mechanical benefit to each set of ranks.

0-6 Simple disguise, as per the normal Illusion.

7-14 Illusioned demons takes on a single feature from the caster. (Ie, if the caster has "gaunt skin" the demon could be a gaunt imp, or if he/she had onyx eyes, you'd get an onyx-eyed aishan)

15-24 Demon gains some sentience (Scripted lines, actions, or noises made by the demon at random time intervals)

25-34 Demon gains the ability to hold a Void that the summoner gives it, and is able to use it as a portable trash can for a limited time.

35-47 Shadow Guard: If shadow is cast upon items, the demon actually appears to guard it. Interacting in a threatening demeanor to anyone who inspects, or uses other verbs with the shadow.

48-63 Permanance: Illusions gain permanance, with some limitations. If the demon can not follow the caster, for a given amount of time, it will lose it's illusion, with similiar effects by any spell that would cancel invisibility.

Late to the game on this one.. bored at work.. but an idea that comes to mind might be an illusion to make your demon appear more imposing.. or some other means of interacting with the demon "So and so takes on the visage of his aishan, his mouth growing oodles of sharpy pointy teeth" etc etc.. something to that effect.. to provide a bonus to evil eye.

Im excited, but at the same time if it is this, ill have to finally buck up and master illusions.......

I cant wait.

Player of Malisai

Winterberry goes in both hands.

~ X., Free the Fifth

Yanso says, "Everyone offer thanks to the healthy looking lass and the most famous sorcerer or all time for finding these magical flowers."