I would like to separate the discussion of making containers available at the guild which are off-the-shelf suitable for use with Phase from Silvean's main post on guild ideas. I'd also like to apologize to him for not forking this immediately.
My basic proposal is that the guilds can sell some kinds of containers which will work with Phase naturally. This can be attained by giving them a latching script, which would lock them. I'm very happy to field any questions on the present Phasing system to my ability, so please ask any questions you may have!
The main objection to creating such containers off-the-shelf is that those GMs who designed and approved Phase set it up to rely on the rogue guild Lock Mastery skill for most general cases. It's a very valid objection. However, I believe it's also true that players, GMs, and goals all change over time, so we don't need to resign ourselves to the old system before any discussion, in my opinion. There are already some tricks to get around this, and my intent is not to invalidate the use of Lock Mastery by sorcerers. That can still be important to particular items, or certain worn locations. Still, I'd like to remove it as a basic requirement, considering how cumbersome the system is (or how rare the alternatives presently seem to be).
I really think selling containers like this is important for our guilds for starting sorcerers, but I am not too particular on the stats of such containers. In the end, I think this is a constructive suggestion, and mainly I'd like to find a version that all sorcerers can agree on. From my own side, I have a number of locked containers, a skull ring, and an item with a concealing pocket, so mostly I am trying to promote possible scenarios that make it simpler for aspiring sorcerers, because I just find the hoops I had to use ridiculous. And our profession has lots of components, so it's a way to really ease our lives.
I have in mind scripted belt-worn and shoulder-worn items. To add a little flavor, I imagined a unique one sold at each guild, but 'unique' can be little more than appearance in my meaning. The guilds in starting areas can provide pouches/sacks that hold around 10 pounds (phasing limit for no training), and some guilds in more 'advanced' areas like RR and Teras can sell ones with larger capacity, for the belt or shoulder. They would have a script for TURN which latches or unlatches the container, which will allow or disallow OPEN/CLOSE. (Keep in mind, as far as Phase is presently implemented, this will work. It requires no changes to Phase itself.)
In a nutshell, I want our guild to directly sell containers ready-made for Phase to help mainly younger sorcerers. I very much welcome all commentary and criticism to this idea, but I relish the most constructive ones! I've always found most the sorcerer guild gear totally worthless, so I hoped to add some modest value to it with this suggestion.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
DAID
VANKRASN39
Re: Phasing containers
07/04/2014 01:20 PM CDT
I've never had trouble finding a rogue to put a lock on a container. Rogues go through a lot of work to be able to put locks on container and we should not try to bypass their hard work, just as those of use who have mastered potions would not like the ensorcell potion to be available in the alchemist shop.
THORNBROOK
Re: Phasing containers
07/04/2014 03:19 PM CDT
As a player of both a sorcerer and a rogue I'd have to disagree with making it this suggestion. As a shopper of EG most years and a fan of Close Yer Robe in the dilapidated wooden shack I'd also have to disagree.
Locking containers for a sorcerer only have the benefit of being used while nested and I don't think a new player would know to utilize that piece of information. Also as they do learn that they CAN do this neat trick, it will and should take some planning ahead to figure out what they really want to accomplish. By level 20 at most they will only be able to phase 14 pounds(Base 10+4 from 18 demo lore), which means finding a few merchants to lighten a container to maxlight and then deciding what to store inside of it. This planning ahead phase is a good one as they can get excited with their profession.
A few things a new player might miss out on if this was just immediately available in the guild store would be,
1. Interaction with another profession who can accomplish what you want which depending on your city or origin could be easy or could be a challenge.
2. A free alteration. Rogues with LM can use whatever clasp provided as a simple way of altering the container either with a long, or a show description if desired. I know I keep a few of each clasp that has been merchant sold in lockers.
3. Keys! Locked containers certainly have the potential to be of interest to a player/character. If they're a nuisance you could simply have the same lock for everything but if you enjoy them well you can incorporate them into your character in as complex a fashion as you want.
4. A bit of the merchant chasing to get that scroll or wand holding container max light.
I bet in the course of planning out steps 1-4 any new person would learn a number of new facts they didn't know previously and as a result I bet they'd change their mind on how exactly they want to incorporate locked containers on their character.
Now if a merchant wanted to release a festival shop that had a latching script then certainly go right ahead. If I liked the visual of the script I'd likely buy a number myself. A merchant able to make containers closeable and lockable would also be welcome as a number of us have containers that just don't play nicely with LFM.
Just my thoughts.
DAID
Re: Phasing containers
07/05/2014 04:18 AM CDT
The duplicate function only working for a smith's own locks, the inability to copy a lock without destroying it, etc have caused me many headaches. If you've ever been to a locksmith in real life, you'd know this is totally unrealistic, too. But not playing a rogue, and not having a character with Lock Mastery, I'd rather see these issues fixed from the side of sorcery.
I don't see why a primary function of a 4th level sorcerer spells should require someone who's mastered the guild of another profession. It's bad enough to make use of our 25th level spell we basically have to master one of our own guild skills.
If we limit the capacity and worn location of these off-the-shelf containers it's hardly bypassing all the work of rogues. And why is the burden of making use of the skill dropped in the lap of sorcerers?
>just as those of use who have mastered potions would not like the ensorcell potion to be available in the alchemist shop.
I'm slightly curious if you mastered potions before or after the release of 735 last year.
Under the logic of anti-bypassing skills, we might as well get rid of the town locksmith, town healer, town armory, town clerics, town fletcher. Even selling enchanted gear off the shelf must be a serious affront to enchanters, one supposes.
>Locking containers for a sorcerer only have the benefit of being used while nested and I don't think a new player would know to utilize that piece of information.
I'm pretty speechless about this. There are much more complicated aspects of sorcery, and this is thoroughly documented and simple
>A few things a new player might miss out on if this was just immediately available in the guild store would be...
I am starting to be convinced that wizards, empaths, and clerics are all missing out on this, too. Let's go fiddle with their spells so they can see all these wonderful benefits they are missing out on! Though, seriously, without Lock Mastery (or other clever tactics), the only use of Phase for weightlessness is on locked treasure boxes. It might not be one of the rogue profession, but I guess by using Phase you're likely to interact with locksmiths in general...
Anyway, I can see this idea is going absolutely no where fast. Oh well.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
I don't see why a primary function of a 4th level sorcerer spells should require someone who's mastered the guild of another profession. It's bad enough to make use of our 25th level spell we basically have to master one of our own guild skills.
If we limit the capacity and worn location of these off-the-shelf containers it's hardly bypassing all the work of rogues. And why is the burden of making use of the skill dropped in the lap of sorcerers?
>just as those of use who have mastered potions would not like the ensorcell potion to be available in the alchemist shop.
I'm slightly curious if you mastered potions before or after the release of 735 last year.
Under the logic of anti-bypassing skills, we might as well get rid of the town locksmith, town healer, town armory, town clerics, town fletcher. Even selling enchanted gear off the shelf must be a serious affront to enchanters, one supposes.
>Locking containers for a sorcerer only have the benefit of being used while nested and I don't think a new player would know to utilize that piece of information.
I'm pretty speechless about this. There are much more complicated aspects of sorcery, and this is thoroughly documented and simple
>A few things a new player might miss out on if this was just immediately available in the guild store would be...
I am starting to be convinced that wizards, empaths, and clerics are all missing out on this, too. Let's go fiddle with their spells so they can see all these wonderful benefits they are missing out on! Though, seriously, without Lock Mastery (or other clever tactics), the only use of Phase for weightlessness is on locked treasure boxes. It might not be one of the rogue profession, but I guess by using Phase you're likely to interact with locksmiths in general...
Anyway, I can see this idea is going absolutely no where fast. Oh well.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
VANKRASN39
Re: Phasing containers
07/05/2014 09:33 AM CDT
>I'm slightly curious if you mastered potions before or after the release of 735 last year.
seriously? I was one of the first 5 sorcerers to grandmaster.
why do you have such an issue finding a rogue to do this? post a PC message and you'd be all set within a day or two.
DAID
Re: Phasing containers
07/05/2014 11:39 AM CDT
>>>I'm slightly curious if you mastered potions before or after the release of 735 last year.
>seriously? I was one of the first 5 sorcerers to grandmaster.
Exactly, but I didn't want to call you out on an utterly inappropriate analogy without surety (I suppose you can re-read your post and find it, but you didn't master the skill to get that potion a didn't exist, it was a bonus after the fact!!). Indeed, many of the rogues doing work for me never used the skill before, so it might be closer to the actual analogy presented here. (Though, working with novice rogues for Lock Mastery adding locks could be part of my issues? I figured Mastery implied something.)
>why do you have such an issue finding a rogue to do this? post a PC message and you'd be all set within a day or two.
It's not an issue finding rogues. It's that no one I worked with understood the system (I've worked with about four by now I think). Even when I posted about it on the officials under Lock Mastery after getting fed up with it, many people didn't seem to know much about duplication. From my experience, I have to explain to rogues I work with how things are supposed to work! I finally re-arranged the KP articles to have information in a more sane order so at least other people don't have to suffer.
I still don't get it. I mean, if the present system is really that easy to use, what threat is a few over the counter items? As far as I hear, finding competent rogues is a cinch and new sorcerers are unexpected to understand a message like It might not be safe to be wearing an item you intend to phase. because it's an extremely subtle point and they wouldn't be able to make use of the skill and containers.
I just fail to see what the opposition is, really. Honestly, have you ever actually bought and used anything from the sorcerer guild on any character? I know I haven't. This was a design I thought might be practical. 100% that's my goal here: design something for the sorcerer guild shops that, if I was a level 15~20 sorcerer, I'd actually buy and use. This is the best I got, though I'm happy to see other proposals.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
>seriously? I was one of the first 5 sorcerers to grandmaster.
Exactly, but I didn't want to call you out on an utterly inappropriate analogy without surety (I suppose you can re-read your post and find it, but you didn't master the skill to get that potion a didn't exist, it was a bonus after the fact!!). Indeed, many of the rogues doing work for me never used the skill before, so it might be closer to the actual analogy presented here. (Though, working with novice rogues for Lock Mastery adding locks could be part of my issues? I figured Mastery implied something.)
>why do you have such an issue finding a rogue to do this? post a PC message and you'd be all set within a day or two.
It's not an issue finding rogues. It's that no one I worked with understood the system (I've worked with about four by now I think). Even when I posted about it on the officials under Lock Mastery after getting fed up with it, many people didn't seem to know much about duplication. From my experience, I have to explain to rogues I work with how things are supposed to work! I finally re-arranged the KP articles to have information in a more sane order so at least other people don't have to suffer.
I still don't get it. I mean, if the present system is really that easy to use, what threat is a few over the counter items? As far as I hear, finding competent rogues is a cinch and new sorcerers are unexpected to understand a message like It might not be safe to be wearing an item you intend to phase. because it's an extremely subtle point and they wouldn't be able to make use of the skill and containers.
I just fail to see what the opposition is, really. Honestly, have you ever actually bought and used anything from the sorcerer guild on any character? I know I haven't. This was a design I thought might be practical. 100% that's my goal here: design something for the sorcerer guild shops that, if I was a level 15~20 sorcerer, I'd actually buy and use. This is the best I got, though I'm happy to see other proposals.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
VANKRASN39
Re: Phasing containers
07/05/2014 04:10 PM CDT
It was not a bonus after the fact, it was finally a money making recipe when none existed
VANKRASN39
Re: Phasing containers
07/05/2014 04:15 PM CDT
How do you not get it? Have you seen anything scripted like that sold at other guilds? All guilds have basic gear. You're suggesting something that would be sold at EG. Why don't we request acid vials and jaws traps while we're at it
DAID
Re: Phasing containers
07/13/2014 02:08 AM CDT
I think it's perfectly reasonable to sell items that work with the spells we have off-the-shelf. I could see a compelling case against my idea if other circles had as many requirements as the 700 circle (although they seem to be catching up in more recent years).
That being said, it's a difference of opinion, so while I don't agree that scripted containers at the sorcerer guild is unreasonable, I am still interested in producing a constructive idea that can be agreed upon.
How about we get some respectable containers with a variety of the weird nouns used by Lock Mastery, then? It would compliment lock mastery fairly well rather than tread on its turf since that seems to be part of the concern.
Here's the list from KP:
backpack, bankbook, basket, book, box, case, casket, chest, coffer, handbag, haversack, hip-basket, hip-satchel, kit, knapsack, manifest, pack, prayerbook, purse, register, reliquary, reticule, rucksack, satchel, songbook, sporran, strongbox, tome, toolkit, trunk, and tube.
Some of those I've emphasized are certainly more common than others, but I'm not out to rank them by their rarity. Most creature-found purses are pretty useless (but I found a belt-worn that holds 25 in a player shop). Some of these things I'm not sure I've ever actually seen (hip-basket and hip-satchel). Something that say weighed 2 pounds and held around 20 worn on the shoulder would be a nice slot: a basket, a casket, a reticule. I also found a leg-worn kit that weighs 2 and holds 20 in a player shop as well.
Can we get on board for a proposal like that, or are these odd-nouns viewed as alteration/merchant domain only? I'm well aware that even containers found on creatures (the 2/20 belt-worn satchels come to mind) are suitable, but making a guild-sold item that compete with creature-found items couldn't be a real object, right? Of course, I can see my example of the leg-worn kit being a bit too nice to sell, perhaps, but I try to reference actual items pre-existing in the game when I can.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
That being said, it's a difference of opinion, so while I don't agree that scripted containers at the sorcerer guild is unreasonable, I am still interested in producing a constructive idea that can be agreed upon.
How about we get some respectable containers with a variety of the weird nouns used by Lock Mastery, then? It would compliment lock mastery fairly well rather than tread on its turf since that seems to be part of the concern.
Here's the list from KP:
backpack, bankbook, basket, book, box, case, casket, chest, coffer, handbag, haversack, hip-basket, hip-satchel, kit, knapsack, manifest, pack, prayerbook, purse, register, reliquary, reticule, rucksack, satchel, songbook, sporran, strongbox, tome, toolkit, trunk, and tube.
Some of those I've emphasized are certainly more common than others, but I'm not out to rank them by their rarity. Most creature-found purses are pretty useless (but I found a belt-worn that holds 25 in a player shop). Some of these things I'm not sure I've ever actually seen (hip-basket and hip-satchel). Something that say weighed 2 pounds and held around 20 worn on the shoulder would be a nice slot: a basket, a casket, a reticule. I also found a leg-worn kit that weighs 2 and holds 20 in a player shop as well.
Can we get on board for a proposal like that, or are these odd-nouns viewed as alteration/merchant domain only? I'm well aware that even containers found on creatures (the 2/20 belt-worn satchels come to mind) are suitable, but making a guild-sold item that compete with creature-found items couldn't be a real object, right? Of course, I can see my example of the leg-worn kit being a bit too nice to sell, perhaps, but I try to reference actual items pre-existing in the game when I can.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
