My OHB/Shield warrior has enough TPs left after fully training in everything that they're starting to build up and it feels like they're going to waste, so I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for where to dump them.
Combat wise, I don't feel like there's really an area where I'm lacking (other then the occasional CS spell, but not much training can do for that). I won't need any more swimming/climbing for 20+ levels and I'd thought about just continuing to dump them into AR, but how much of that could I possibly need? I thought about MIU, but I never remember I have imbeds when I have them so would prolly be as much of a waste as just letting the TPs build up.... maybe add ranks in something that's not already maxed out every level?
Anyway, here's her current training:
(at level 39), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Two Weapon Combat..................| 5 1 1
Armor Use..........................| 223 123 123
Shield Use.........................| 223 123 123
Combat Maneuvers...................| 182 82 82
Blunt Weapons......................| 182 82 82
Brawling...........................| 182 82 82
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30 30
Physical Fitness...................| 182 82 82
Arcane Symbols.....................| 114 28 28
Perception.........................| 141 41 41
Climbing...........................| 70 15 15
Swimming...........................| 70 15 15
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
OM1E5GA
OM1E5GA
Re: Ideas?
07/14/2016 04:50 AM CDT
<<I'd thought about just continuing to dump them into AR>>
Gggrrr.... AS, not AR.... I don't know why I always think the skill is Arcane Runes rather then Arcane Symbols....
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Gggrrr.... AS, not AR.... I don't know why I always think the skill is Arcane Runes rather then Arcane Symbols....
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Ideas?
07/14/2016 06:26 AM CDT
Ambush and MOC are where you look low to me.
Also FA if you aren't in the evil dwarf society.
Trading bonuses come very fast with the first few ranks.
Survival seems to be getting a bit more like climb/swim. You'll want some eventually but since its benefits are only being scripted into new areas, and new areas are high level, not necessary yet.
3x PF if you can't think of anything else you want to do. Other stuff is going to require a bit more commitment to it than putting spare points in as they come up.
Also FA if you aren't in the evil dwarf society.
Trading bonuses come very fast with the first few ranks.
Survival seems to be getting a bit more like climb/swim. You'll want some eventually but since its benefits are only being scripted into new areas, and new areas are high level, not necessary yet.
3x PF if you can't think of anything else you want to do. Other stuff is going to require a bit more commitment to it than putting spare points in as they come up.
PFLATS
Re: Ideas?
07/14/2016 07:08 AM CDT
8 ranks of first aid will let you chow on the tier 1 herbs in 3 seconds (which is the minimum) instead of 5.
Not essential but a nice little cheap pickup.
Not essential but a nice little cheap pickup.
KRAKII
Re: Ideas?
07/14/2016 08:37 AM CDT
Whereas 10 ranks will let you do a 'diag full' and get details.
OM1E5GA
Re: Ideas?
07/14/2016 01:07 PM CDT
After doing a bit more research in open ambushing, it seems like getting 25-30 ranks in Ambush would greatly help me, esp since once I start hunting the Keep killing things quickly will be much more necessary then in Oteska's. It doesn't look like getting more then that will be of much use since I already 2x in CM, so more PT to help with the maneuvers of necro snakes and chimera wouldn't hurt... nor would the extra stamina.
Thanks for the input.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Thanks for the input.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Ideas?
07/15/2016 10:00 AM CDT
>After doing a bit more research in open ambushing, it seems like getting 25-30 ranks in Ambush would greatly help me, esp since once I start hunting the Keep killing things quickly will be much more necessary then in Oteska's. It doesn't look like getting more then that will be of much use since I already 2x in CM, so more PT to help with the maneuvers of necro snakes and chimera wouldn't hurt... nor would the extra stamina.
aim skill is (CM skill + ambush skill)/2 (no doubt with some stat contribution too, probably +DEX)
The bigger the weapon and the smaller the area you are aiming at, the more skill you need for the shot but the numbers for these aren't known to players with any precision. The thing to do is check how much you miss openings on the shots you want to make, and add a lot of ambush skill if you miss a lot, and a little if its just occasionally. Once its more or less there, just add a rank each time you miss an opening.
aim skill is (CM skill + ambush skill)/2 (no doubt with some stat contribution too, probably +DEX)
The bigger the weapon and the smaller the area you are aiming at, the more skill you need for the shot but the numbers for these aren't known to players with any precision. The thing to do is check how much you miss openings on the shots you want to make, and add a lot of ambush skill if you miss a lot, and a little if its just occasionally. Once its more or less there, just add a rank each time you miss an opening.
FIREPHOENIX
Re: Ideas?
07/15/2016 10:13 AM CDT
30 ranks is the sweet spot and with all of oir CM most of us agree on that point. A few math folks like 24 or 25 but there is a miss range in that formula we dont like so 30 has closes it essentially.
PFLATS
Re: Ideas?
07/15/2016 10:51 AM CDT
>aim skill is (CM skill + ambush skill)/2 (no doubt with some stat contribution too, probably +DEX)
Do you have a source/your own research data to support this? It was my impression that this is very much still an open question. We know there are diminishing returns on CM and Ambush training, but I haven't seen anything more specific than that.
Do you have a source/your own research data to support this? It was my impression that this is very much still an open question. We know there are diminishing returns on CM and Ambush training, but I haven't seen anything more specific than that.
KRAKII
Re: Ideas?
07/15/2016 11:00 AM CDT
Personally, I'm always a big fan of getting "all the ranks that are worth more than just one (1)", so I would go all the way to 40 ranks/140 skill.
<shrug>
That's more personal foible than anything else. :)
<shrug>
That's more personal foible than anything else. :)
RATHBONER
Re: Ideas?
07/15/2016 12:12 PM CDT
>Do you have a source/your own research data to support this?
Many NIR posts have stated its ambush alone from hiding, and the average of the two from the open (and something different again for ranged rather than melee). You'll find the same assumption made on the wiki, though I didn't see a saved NIR post on a cursory search. See Oscuros saved posts under predators eye for some detail on how skill translates to aiming success.
>30 ranks is the sweet spot and with all of oir CM most of us agree on that point. A few math folks like 24 or 25 but there is a miss range in that formula we dont like so 30 has closes it essentially.
It depends on what weapon and what level (at 2x CM) and what target strategy you are using.
20 ranks worked nicely for me at level 30. 40 ranks isn't enough at cap (and I suspect I'll need at least 70 and would continue to see benefit well past 100 but I haven't got there yet). There's no such thing as a universal sweet spot at 30 ranks because there's a huge variation in target difficulty.
There is a limit beyond which training doesn't give any extra benefit. The chance of hitting the desired area is capped, so once you have enough ambush to do that, there isn't any point in getting more. (and if you reach that point before cap, you can untrain ambush as you increase CM). A bunch of people using the same weapon type on the same critters with the same tactics is going to come to the same conclusion about what that is, but put variety in there and 60/20 can be enough while 202/40 isn't.
Many NIR posts have stated its ambush alone from hiding, and the average of the two from the open (and something different again for ranged rather than melee). You'll find the same assumption made on the wiki, though I didn't see a saved NIR post on a cursory search. See Oscuros saved posts under predators eye for some detail on how skill translates to aiming success.
>30 ranks is the sweet spot and with all of oir CM most of us agree on that point. A few math folks like 24 or 25 but there is a miss range in that formula we dont like so 30 has closes it essentially.
It depends on what weapon and what level (at 2x CM) and what target strategy you are using.
20 ranks worked nicely for me at level 30. 40 ranks isn't enough at cap (and I suspect I'll need at least 70 and would continue to see benefit well past 100 but I haven't got there yet). There's no such thing as a universal sweet spot at 30 ranks because there's a huge variation in target difficulty.
There is a limit beyond which training doesn't give any extra benefit. The chance of hitting the desired area is capped, so once you have enough ambush to do that, there isn't any point in getting more. (and if you reach that point before cap, you can untrain ambush as you increase CM). A bunch of people using the same weapon type on the same critters with the same tactics is going to come to the same conclusion about what that is, but put variety in there and 60/20 can be enough while 202/40 isn't.
CAVEMANIAC
Re: Ideas?
07/15/2016 08:08 PM CDT
For open melee aiming I actually think it is (Ambush skill + CM skill)/4 and Ambush skill/2 from hiding. If you go digging through saved posts on the gswiki you can probably see it confirmed over the years. 24 ranks is ideal before penalties from a min/max perspective. However, the question I have not seen answered is which of those penalties can be trained away to justify getting more ambush ranks.
CAVEMANIAC
Re: Ideas?
07/15/2016 08:22 PM CDT
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Ambush_saved_post
Some of the information on that page is outdated or conflicting but the part in Cyphers post regarding open melee aiming skill is what the current assumptions are based on.
Some of the information on that page is outdated or conflicting but the part in Cyphers post regarding open melee aiming skill is what the current assumptions are based on.
RATHBONER
Re: Ideas?
07/16/2016 07:04 AM CDT
>For open melee aiming I actually think it is (Ambush skill + CM skill)/4 and Ambush skill/2 from hiding. If you go digging through saved posts on the gswiki you can probably see it confirmed over the years. 24 ranks is ideal before penalties from a min/max perspective. However, the question I have not seen answered is which of those penalties can be trained away to justify getting more ambush ranks.
bonuses - penalties + dice = endroll (general GS formula)
if endroll too small then you fail to find an opening, if not big enough you hit the wrong area (general GS method)
various caps apply to (bonus-penalty) and its done in a more complex way than the simple formula implies, probably to make coding that part more straightforward.
This gives two places you can direct your training at: having enough training that the endroll to find an opening is always met, or having enough training to hit the (bonus - penalty) cap. With one handers I get the first met early, and then just allow the slow accumulation of CM with level to move towards the second and if it goes past it I don't worry. I only worry if I need to make a more difficult shot, which the accumulation of CM hasn't prepared me for and I start missing openings again.
Since both the penalties and the caps depend on the type of shot being attempted, so will the amount of training required. For a lot of people, it does seem to come out in the 20-30 range, but I suspect the OP will be fine with 10 at mid-level, and 40 is well short of being enough for me at cap (though 20 was fine at level 90).
However the formula remains the same if you divide everything in it by 2, so unless you have some fixed values to work from it makes no difference. The key is that ambush skill counts the same as CM skill in the bonuses. I think of 101 being the required endroll to avoid missed openings, and that leads me to average skill rather than half that. Similarly I think of the "critter too small for a giant to aim" penalty being 100 and again that leads me to average skill, but it could also be framed with half the average and 50s.
bonuses - penalties + dice = endroll (general GS formula)
if endroll too small then you fail to find an opening, if not big enough you hit the wrong area (general GS method)
various caps apply to (bonus-penalty) and its done in a more complex way than the simple formula implies, probably to make coding that part more straightforward.
This gives two places you can direct your training at: having enough training that the endroll to find an opening is always met, or having enough training to hit the (bonus - penalty) cap. With one handers I get the first met early, and then just allow the slow accumulation of CM with level to move towards the second and if it goes past it I don't worry. I only worry if I need to make a more difficult shot, which the accumulation of CM hasn't prepared me for and I start missing openings again.
Since both the penalties and the caps depend on the type of shot being attempted, so will the amount of training required. For a lot of people, it does seem to come out in the 20-30 range, but I suspect the OP will be fine with 10 at mid-level, and 40 is well short of being enough for me at cap (though 20 was fine at level 90).
However the formula remains the same if you divide everything in it by 2, so unless you have some fixed values to work from it makes no difference. The key is that ambush skill counts the same as CM skill in the bonuses. I think of 101 being the required endroll to avoid missed openings, and that leads me to average skill rather than half that. Similarly I think of the "critter too small for a giant to aim" penalty being 100 and again that leads me to average skill, but it could also be framed with half the average and 50s.
CAVEMANIAC
Re: Ideas?
07/16/2016 09:45 AM CDT
I should have clarified but I was speaking from the perspective of a capped player open ambushing. We know that 2x CM at cap is 302 skill and 24 ranks of ambush is 102 skill. So the base chance is (102+302)/4 or 100%.
For penalties we know that there is a base 5% fumble, height penalty and location penalty that cannot compensated with more CM or Ambush skill.
What we dont know is if the weapon penalty can be trained away but from some tests I have seen I think it is likely. My point was more once your skill bonus/4 was 100% its less clear to train further from a min/max if you looked at the skills in a vacuum.
For penalties we know that there is a base 5% fumble, height penalty and location penalty that cannot compensated with more CM or Ambush skill.
What we dont know is if the weapon penalty can be trained away but from some tests I have seen I think it is likely. My point was more once your skill bonus/4 was 100% its less clear to train further from a min/max if you looked at the skills in a vacuum.
OM1E5GA
Re: Ideas?
07/16/2016 02:47 PM CDT
Wow, far more detail then I needed, though definitely enlightening.
With just the 4 ranks in Ambush I've managed to pick up so far (in addition to the 2x CM I already had), I'm not missing any openings on the like level critters in Oteska's (though I occasionally would before getting Ambush ranks). However, my success rate in actually hitting the body part I'm aiming for (usually the head, but occasionally an arm or leg) is nowhere near my ranged rogue's when aiming for eyes. It's often enough I notice the difference between ATTACK and AMBUSH, but not reliable enough to count on yet.
However my playing with AMBUSH has brought up another question:
I've noticed that when using AMBUSH my bonded weapon will still double strike, which actually surprised me. Are both swings aimed or only one of the two?
I ask because when the weapon bonding ability kicks in, the second swing seems to make contact with the body part I'm aiming for more often then the first does.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
With just the 4 ranks in Ambush I've managed to pick up so far (in addition to the 2x CM I already had), I'm not missing any openings on the like level critters in Oteska's (though I occasionally would before getting Ambush ranks). However, my success rate in actually hitting the body part I'm aiming for (usually the head, but occasionally an arm or leg) is nowhere near my ranged rogue's when aiming for eyes. It's often enough I notice the difference between ATTACK and AMBUSH, but not reliable enough to count on yet.
However my playing with AMBUSH has brought up another question:
I've noticed that when using AMBUSH my bonded weapon will still double strike, which actually surprised me. Are both swings aimed or only one of the two?
I ask because when the weapon bonding ability kicks in, the second swing seems to make contact with the body part I'm aiming for more often then the first does.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Ideas?
07/17/2016 06:50 AM CDT
Only the first is aimed. Its the main reason I stopped using the double swing. Too many mangled skins when the second hit the wrong region (plus a double swing when the weapon feels like it is weak sauce compared to a focussed quad when I feel like it)
Arrows are easier to aim (my guess is they count as daggers), and your rogue is likely double trained in all the skills required.
> We know that 2x CM at cap is 302 skill and 24 ranks of ambush is 102 skill. So the base chance is (102+302)/4 or 100%.
I read the evidence differently and would put that at 200%.
Arrows are easier to aim (my guess is they count as daggers), and your rogue is likely double trained in all the skills required.
> We know that 2x CM at cap is 302 skill and 24 ranks of ambush is 102 skill. So the base chance is (102+302)/4 or 100%.
I read the evidence differently and would put that at 200%.
RATHBONER
Re: Ideas?
07/17/2016 07:15 AM CDT
Not quite phrased right.
I read the evidence differently and would HAVE put that at 200%.
(I'd like to cross check my memory against some other Ildran and Warden posts which is where my impressions are coming from, but I think I'll have to spend time in the test server instead)
I read the evidence differently and would HAVE put that at 200%.
(I'd like to cross check my memory against some other Ildran and Warden posts which is where my impressions are coming from, but I think I'll have to spend time in the test server instead)
OM1E5GA
Re: Ideas?
07/17/2016 10:47 AM CDT
Oh yea, if my warrior was aiming shots anywhere near as well as my rogue I'd be screaming about there being a bug somewhere :P
After hunting with the warrior more, the first shot is def hitting it's mark more often. I must have just had some unusual rolls resulting in the second shot hitting rather then the first when I made that last post.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
After hunting with the warrior more, the first shot is def hitting it's mark more often. I must have just had some unusual rolls resulting in the second shot hitting rather then the first when I made that last post.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
CAVEMANIAC
Re: Ideas?
07/17/2016 11:48 AM CDT
Not to derail too much but that reminds me of something. If you have enough swings to get the double-strike flare but you kill the target on the first swing does the swing count reset?
OM1E5GA
Re: Ideas?
07/17/2016 12:22 PM CDT
<<If you have enough swings to get the double-strike flare but you kill the target on the first swing does the swing count reset?>>
No, it operates like flares in that the double-strike doesn't trigger if the creature is killed by the initial swing and the count isn't reset until it does trigger. This is why you might notice the double-strike activates a bit more often on the fist swing at a critter.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
No, it operates like flares in that the double-strike doesn't trigger if the creature is killed by the initial swing and the count isn't reset until it does trigger. This is why you might notice the double-strike activates a bit more often on the fist swing at a critter.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
DRUNKTANK
Re: Ideas?
08/18/2016 05:34 AM CDT
While I am trained in THW, I can honestly say I haven't really used them for much of anything in at least 20 levels. That said, I am in Platinum and I have some pretty sweet gear. I figured I would put this up there, regardless, because my training hasn't changed all of that much in several years whether I was using THW or not. Epic gear or not, the below is pretty great as far as I am concerned for average training.
Glurph (at level 81), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 268 168 168
Shield Use.........................| 266 166 166
Combat Maneuvers...................| 266 166 166
Blunt Weapons......................| 266 166 166
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 266 166 166
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 141 41 41
Physical Fitness...................| 266 166 166
Dodging............................| 183 83 83
Arcane Symbols.....................| 141 41 41
Magic Item Use.....................| 141 41 41
Harness Power......................| 120 30 30
Perception.........................| 266 166 166
Climbing...........................| 141 41 41
Swimming...........................| 141 41 41
Trading............................| 0 0 0
I have my MUI and AS stretched up there because I like to be able to use magic items and scrolls as needed for boosts (again, platinum - I can't depend on outside spells), although I don't require them for day to day hunting. My perception is heightened because I'm currently training batter within the guild. Otherwise, that might be 1x. Because of the low cost however, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping it at 2x.
The above data noted, Glurph is built for growth. His stats have been primed for growth for a dwarf warrior since day 1. Mostly because I didn't want to spend loot on a stat potion at any point.
Glurph
>wtrick tslice
You try to stuff your razern morning star in your ear.
Glurph (at level 81), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 268 168 168
Shield Use.........................| 266 166 166
Combat Maneuvers...................| 266 166 166
Blunt Weapons......................| 266 166 166
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 266 166 166
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 141 41 41
Physical Fitness...................| 266 166 166
Dodging............................| 183 83 83
Arcane Symbols.....................| 141 41 41
Magic Item Use.....................| 141 41 41
Harness Power......................| 120 30 30
Perception.........................| 266 166 166
Climbing...........................| 141 41 41
Swimming...........................| 141 41 41
Trading............................| 0 0 0
I have my MUI and AS stretched up there because I like to be able to use magic items and scrolls as needed for boosts (again, platinum - I can't depend on outside spells), although I don't require them for day to day hunting. My perception is heightened because I'm currently training batter within the guild. Otherwise, that might be 1x. Because of the low cost however, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping it at 2x.
The above data noted, Glurph is built for growth. His stats have been primed for growth for a dwarf warrior since day 1. Mostly because I didn't want to spend loot on a stat potion at any point.
Glurph
>wtrick tslice
You try to stuff your razern morning star in your ear.
DRUNKTANK
Re: Ideas?
08/18/2016 05:39 AM CDT
My browser flaked out and I didn't see the 2 pages of replies after this. Doh. Whatevs - take from my training what you will. I'm holding off on hurling until post-cap. It doesn't hurt that I have a chain spear and a bandolier waiting for me. Platinum really is a special place. <3
Glurph
>wtrick tslice
You try to stuff your razern morning star in your ear.
Glurph
>wtrick tslice
You try to stuff your razern morning star in your ear.
LEEJ187
Re: Ideas?
08/18/2016 02:45 PM CDT
< Platinum really is a special place. <3 >
A particular dark elf has been waiting for you to be around to have a chat. Maybe we're based on too varying of time zones.
~James/Auvreaian
A particular dark elf has been waiting for you to be around to have a chat. Maybe we're based on too varying of time zones.
~James/Auvreaian
