Rogues have two armor skills they can learn. I have been gearing toward armor evasion; I figure that I would probably be most vulnerable during post ambush RT, and that this would help there. I have 2 ranks of this skill so far. We can only apply one skill at a time to our armor, so I didn't learn any armor stealth at all; I figured my S&H skill would compensate for any armor detractions from stealth.
1) How does armor evasion work? Is it additive to dodge skill? (I have 2.5x dodge).
2) I am fairly stealthy with 2.5x S&H also. How much would armor stealth factor into staying hidden when moving and/or being searched out?
3) My current armor is Hauberk, with 83 ranks armor skill at present; going to work up to 90 ASAP to get that third rank of evasion skill.
4) Warriors are always offering armor support to folks; this basically reduced encumbrance. Do rogue armor skills benefit non rogues? I figure that armor stealth wouldn't benefit anyone except maybe rangers who hide/ambush. Does armor evasion help folks in light armor at all (i.e., wizards in full leather, clerics in double and so on)?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
OM1E5GA
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/30/2015 09:22 PM CDT
<2) I am fairly stealthy with 2.5x S&H also. How much would armor stealth factor into staying hidden when moving and/or being searched out?>
When I picked up stealth I had about half as many levels as I do now (was level 35ish at the time), and it's been a LONG time since I've hunted without it running.... but in brig there was a noticeable difference to how often I fell out of hiding when shooting my bow and being searched for with just a rank or two when I got it. I know the type of armor makes a difference (I've never gone above brig with a rogue) and it may or may not be as noticeable to me now that I'm in my 70's (and have a lot more ranks in S&H), but since I'm rarely in the open long enough to get hit (thanks VANISH!) I, personally, don't see a need to switch. A melee rogue would probably get a lot more out of EVASION then my little sniper would, though.
I haven't had problems SNEAKing since well before ARMOR skills were introduced, so I'll let someone else comment on that.
<4) Warriors are always offering armor support to folks; this basically reduced encumbrance. Do rogue armor skills benefit non rogues? I figure that armor stealth wouldn't benefit anyone except maybe rangers who hide/ambush. Does armor evasion help folks in light armor at all (i.e., wizards in full leather, clerics in double and so on)?>
I've never actually seen anyone ask for anything other then armor support, and I've certainly never been asked for stealth or had the offer taken up the few times I've asked if anyone wanted it. Likewise, my warrior has never had a taker for reinforcement (she's a giantman and rarely encumbered).
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken, but the way the formula on the wiki is written for EVASION, anything below ASG 7 would result in an increase to the action penalty rather then a reduction in it (or, at best, no benefit at all)... if that's true, I don't see why most pures would want it.
Beyond a certain level, most of the non-square professions don't have to worry very often about melee attacks even coming close to connecting unless they're up-hunting a fair bit, it's the critter's maneuvers or out of sphere CS spells that take them out (except sorcerers, who only ever really worry about maneuvers). As such, it's no real surprise they'd prefer SUPPORT since that's one of the biggest contributing factors to critter maneuvers that can be changed.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
When I picked up stealth I had about half as many levels as I do now (was level 35ish at the time), and it's been a LONG time since I've hunted without it running.... but in brig there was a noticeable difference to how often I fell out of hiding when shooting my bow and being searched for with just a rank or two when I got it. I know the type of armor makes a difference (I've never gone above brig with a rogue) and it may or may not be as noticeable to me now that I'm in my 70's (and have a lot more ranks in S&H), but since I'm rarely in the open long enough to get hit (thanks VANISH!) I, personally, don't see a need to switch. A melee rogue would probably get a lot more out of EVASION then my little sniper would, though.
I haven't had problems SNEAKing since well before ARMOR skills were introduced, so I'll let someone else comment on that.
<4) Warriors are always offering armor support to folks; this basically reduced encumbrance. Do rogue armor skills benefit non rogues? I figure that armor stealth wouldn't benefit anyone except maybe rangers who hide/ambush. Does armor evasion help folks in light armor at all (i.e., wizards in full leather, clerics in double and so on)?>
I've never actually seen anyone ask for anything other then armor support, and I've certainly never been asked for stealth or had the offer taken up the few times I've asked if anyone wanted it. Likewise, my warrior has never had a taker for reinforcement (she's a giantman and rarely encumbered).
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken, but the way the formula on the wiki is written for EVASION, anything below ASG 7 would result in an increase to the action penalty rather then a reduction in it (or, at best, no benefit at all)... if that's true, I don't see why most pures would want it.
Beyond a certain level, most of the non-square professions don't have to worry very often about melee attacks even coming close to connecting unless they're up-hunting a fair bit, it's the critter's maneuvers or out of sphere CS spells that take them out (except sorcerers, who only ever really worry about maneuvers). As such, it's no real surprise they'd prefer SUPPORT since that's one of the biggest contributing factors to critter maneuvers that can be changed.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
THROGG
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 03:13 AM CDT
>>A melee rogue would probably get a lot more out of EVASION then my little sniper would, though.<<
Ah, yes. I forgot to mention that I ambush with UAC, so there is no question of sniping from the shadows and staying hidden. I can't use vanish after every attack or I'll run out of stamina fairly fast; timing is important. Hence my initial assessment that evasion was the more valuable skill for me. Peceptive creatures occasionally are able to sniff me out; stone mastiffs come to mind, for example.
Lots of folks in TSC want armor support when offered; I often pipe up and offer evasion in turn. Are you saying that adjusting someone's armor can actually make them evade blows more poorly rather than less? That makes no sense at all. How does that work?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Ah, yes. I forgot to mention that I ambush with UAC, so there is no question of sniping from the shadows and staying hidden. I can't use vanish after every attack or I'll run out of stamina fairly fast; timing is important. Hence my initial assessment that evasion was the more valuable skill for me. Peceptive creatures occasionally are able to sniff me out; stone mastiffs come to mind, for example.
Lots of folks in TSC want armor support when offered; I often pipe up and offer evasion in turn. Are you saying that adjusting someone's armor can actually make them evade blows more poorly rather than less? That makes no sense at all. How does that work?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
OM1E5GA
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 03:42 AM CDT
<Are you saying that adjusting someone's armor can actually make them evade blows more poorly rather than less? That makes no sense at all. How does that work?>
I doubt the actual mechanics allow it, but strictly going by the formula posted on the wiki, it would be possible. I doubt the skill is actually designed to do this though, and unless there's a saved post on the wiki or a name in red chimes in saying otherwise, I'd assume that those armor groups actually receive no benefit rather then performing more poorly.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I doubt the actual mechanics allow it, but strictly going by the formula posted on the wiki, it would be possible. I doubt the skill is actually designed to do this though, and unless there's a saved post on the wiki or a name in red chimes in saying otherwise, I'd assume that those armor groups actually receive no benefit rather then performing more poorly.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 07:31 AM CDT
>1) How does armor evasion work? Is it additive to dodge skill? (I have 2.5x dodge).
Its multiplicative. Armor action penalty reduces dodge DS by a percentage. Evasion decreases this percentage. Even in chain at cap its a fairly meh amount of DS, but its more than nothing which is what it was beforehand.
>2) I am fairly stealthy with 2.5x S&H also. How much would armor stealth factor into staying hidden when moving and/or being searched out?
>3) My current armor is Hauberk, with 83 ranks armor skill at present; going to work up to 90 ASAP to get that third rank of evasion skill.
Chain (and up) evasion, brig (and down) stealth is my opinion. If I ever get sufficiently post cap I reckon on moving back down to lighter armor and switching but at the moment its chain and evasion for me. The effects aren't large and you might as well experiment with stealth on chain if you feel it could be helpful and reckon the DS isn't actually doing much for you anyway.
>4) Warriors are always offering armor support to folks; this basically reduced encumbrance. Do rogue armor skills benefit non rogues? I figure that armor stealth wouldn't benefit anyone except maybe rangers who hide/ambush. Does armor evasion help folks in light armor at all (i.e., wizards in full leather, clerics in double and so on)?
I have on occasion been asked for evasion and I always double check whether the person asking really knows what they are asking for rather than thinking its support. If someone is AsG 8 or heavier they get some benefit but I only use my own evasion rather than getting support from a warrior for RP reasons. Mechanically the benefits from not being encumbered (which include significant loss of dodge DS) beat the benefits of a little less action penalty applied to dodge DS by a mile. If it was a generic reduction in action penalty it might be different, but its just for dodge DS.
>Peceptive creatures occasionally are able to sniff me out; stone mastiffs come to mind, for example.
I'm not sure armor stealth works against sniffing animals and undead. I think those are actually different mechanisms from intelligent perception and the same bonuses do not necessarily apply.
Its multiplicative. Armor action penalty reduces dodge DS by a percentage. Evasion decreases this percentage. Even in chain at cap its a fairly meh amount of DS, but its more than nothing which is what it was beforehand.
>2) I am fairly stealthy with 2.5x S&H also. How much would armor stealth factor into staying hidden when moving and/or being searched out?
>3) My current armor is Hauberk, with 83 ranks armor skill at present; going to work up to 90 ASAP to get that third rank of evasion skill.
Chain (and up) evasion, brig (and down) stealth is my opinion. If I ever get sufficiently post cap I reckon on moving back down to lighter armor and switching but at the moment its chain and evasion for me. The effects aren't large and you might as well experiment with stealth on chain if you feel it could be helpful and reckon the DS isn't actually doing much for you anyway.
>4) Warriors are always offering armor support to folks; this basically reduced encumbrance. Do rogue armor skills benefit non rogues? I figure that armor stealth wouldn't benefit anyone except maybe rangers who hide/ambush. Does armor evasion help folks in light armor at all (i.e., wizards in full leather, clerics in double and so on)?
I have on occasion been asked for evasion and I always double check whether the person asking really knows what they are asking for rather than thinking its support. If someone is AsG 8 or heavier they get some benefit but I only use my own evasion rather than getting support from a warrior for RP reasons. Mechanically the benefits from not being encumbered (which include significant loss of dodge DS) beat the benefits of a little less action penalty applied to dodge DS by a mile. If it was a generic reduction in action penalty it might be different, but its just for dodge DS.
>Peceptive creatures occasionally are able to sniff me out; stone mastiffs come to mind, for example.
I'm not sure armor stealth works against sniffing animals and undead. I think those are actually different mechanisms from intelligent perception and the same bonuses do not necessarily apply.
THROGG
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 10:00 AM CDT
>>Mechanically the benefits from not being encumbered (which include significant loss of dodge DS) beat the benefits of a little less action penalty applied to dodge DS by a mile. If it was a generic reduction in action penalty it might be different, but its just for dodge DS.<<
Hang on a second; if what you're saying means what I think it does, then rogue armor skills suck and I'm better off getting armor support from a warrior?
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Hang on a second; if what you're saying means what I think it does, then rogue armor skills suck and I'm better off getting armor support from a warrior?
::This space for rent::
RATHBONER
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 10:51 AM CDT
>Hang on a second; if what you're saying means what I think it does, then rogue armor skills suck and I'm better off getting armor support from a warrior?
It depends just how readily you become encumbered in normal hunting. If you normally are never encumbered, then you'll gain more from evasion. If you normally are encumbered you'll gain more from support. The experience of a dark elf that is combat orientated may be rather different than a halfling smith that has 20lbs of picking gear to carry around in this regard.
Rogue armor skills are designed to give more advantage to lighter armors. A magic rogue in robes or doubles can get quite a lot out of stealth, but pseudo warrior types in heavy armor are likely to do better with warrior armor adjustments.
It depends just how readily you become encumbered in normal hunting. If you normally are never encumbered, then you'll gain more from evasion. If you normally are encumbered you'll gain more from support. The experience of a dark elf that is combat orientated may be rather different than a halfling smith that has 20lbs of picking gear to carry around in this regard.
Rogue armor skills are designed to give more advantage to lighter armors. A magic rogue in robes or doubles can get quite a lot out of stealth, but pseudo warrior types in heavy armor are likely to do better with warrior armor adjustments.
SCRAPPERK
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 11:19 AM CDT
Capped rogue in hauberk. Give me my evasion any day of the week. The shadow dodge bonus is easier than finding that wizard for results.
GALLM11
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 04:10 PM CDT
The way I understand it is that it reduces the Action Penalty, which applies to not only dodge DS, but also evading maneuvers, climb checks, swim checks, and the like.
Also, I don't know why you think it isn't effective on ASG7 and below. The way I read the wiki formula (AP is reduced by (rank*(7-AG))/2) would mean that it is more effective for lighter armor groups. In Brig, with only one rank (where I am at for the time being) I am at (7-3)/2 or reduced by 2. I don't notice it that much, but there is definitely a difference for me when I accidentally let Armored evasion drop.
Also, I don't know why you think it isn't effective on ASG7 and below. The way I read the wiki formula (AP is reduced by (rank*(7-AG))/2) would mean that it is more effective for lighter armor groups. In Brig, with only one rank (where I am at for the time being) I am at (7-3)/2 or reduced by 2. I don't notice it that much, but there is definitely a difference for me when I accidentally let Armored evasion drop.
THORNBROOK
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 04:14 PM CDT
>>The way I understand it is that it reduces the Action Penalty, which applies to not only dodge DS, but also evading maneuvers, climb checks, swim checks, and the like.
That was how I understood it until a NIR chimed in maybe 3-4 months ago saying it applied only to the dodge DS portion. I want to say it was Ixix that mispoke and then corrected his statement to say the bad news.
OM1E5GA
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 05:16 PM CDT
<Also, I don't know why you think it isn't effective on ASG7 and below.>
Because the word "reduces" implies you're subtracting the number resulting from the given formula from your AP. Since the formula results in a positive number for any ASG below 7, and subtracting a positive from a negative results in a bigger negative (-2-1=-3), it would either be ineffective on lower armor groups due to a cap or give them a hindrance where there wasn't one before.
However, subtracting a negative number from another negative number results in a lower negative or a positive number (-2-(-1)=-1), meaning evasion would be more beneficial the higher the ASG you were wearing.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Because the word "reduces" implies you're subtracting the number resulting from the given formula from your AP. Since the formula results in a positive number for any ASG below 7, and subtracting a positive from a negative results in a bigger negative (-2-1=-3), it would either be ineffective on lower armor groups due to a cap or give them a hindrance where there wasn't one before.
However, subtracting a negative number from another negative number results in a lower negative or a positive number (-2-(-1)=-1), meaning evasion would be more beneficial the higher the ASG you were wearing.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
GS4-IXIX
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 05:21 PM CDT
I do vaguely recall that but I can't find the specific post to see if I was actually right or not (gee that's helpful, eh?). So let's ignore that and just go with this:
Armored Evasion adjusts your Action Penalty for more than just your DS. Other things that consider include (but are not necessarily limited to in case I'm missing something) Spikethorn, Quake, Roa'ter Burrows, SMRs, Boil Earth, Lava Golem blob attacks, and Minotaur Charges.
Ixix
Armored Evasion adjusts your Action Penalty for more than just your DS. Other things that consider include (but are not necessarily limited to in case I'm missing something) Spikethorn, Quake, Roa'ter Burrows, SMRs, Boil Earth, Lava Golem blob attacks, and Minotaur Charges.
Ixix
GALLM11
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 06:15 PM CDT
<Because the word "reduces" implies you're subtracting the number resulting from the given formula from your AP. Since the formula results in a positive number for any ASG below 7, and subtracting a positive from a negative results in a bigger negative (-2-1=-3), it would either be ineffective on lower armor groups due to a cap or give them a hindrance where there wasn't one before. >
Here is the formula I got from the wiki - https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_Specialization
(Rank * (7-(Armor Group))/2)
Note, its armor group, not AsG.
So for me (1 rank of Armored Evasion, wearing Brig (AG=3)), the Armor Penalty is (1 * 7-3))/2 = 2. I read this to mean the armor penalty for Brig (-12) is reduced by 2 (-10). Otherwise there is no benefit to Armored evasion at any rank, because since its armor group (1-5) rather than Armor Sub Group (1-17). I think you may be reading too much into the fact that its reducing a negative number, but I am not certain.
Ixix, Thank you for confirming that Armored evasion is useful for dodging maneuvers. Maybe that means people will take us rogues up on offering Armored Evasion. Is there any way you could confirm how the formula works? I would prefer not to train in Armored evasion if it doesn't give me any benefit for wearing brig.
THROGG
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 08:13 PM CDT
>>If you normally are never encumbered, then you'll gain more from evasion.<<
OK, Guenn's strength is 100, she has an enhancive that bumps it up to 108, and carries several items with strength embedded in them, so she always has wizard strength running as well. Encumbrance occasionally pops up as an issue if overloaded with boxes, but there's no way to know ahead of time if this will occur, of course. So, with hauberk it seems like evasion would be minimally more of value than support, since it also affects maneuver attack avoidance. But if I'm hunting somewhere that I often find a lot of boxes, maybe I should ask for support instead.
Is this essentially correct?
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OK, Guenn's strength is 100, she has an enhancive that bumps it up to 108, and carries several items with strength embedded in them, so she always has wizard strength running as well. Encumbrance occasionally pops up as an issue if overloaded with boxes, but there's no way to know ahead of time if this will occur, of course. So, with hauberk it seems like evasion would be minimally more of value than support, since it also affects maneuver attack avoidance. But if I'm hunting somewhere that I often find a lot of boxes, maybe I should ask for support instead.
Is this essentially correct?
::This space for rent::
GS4-IXIX
Re: Armor skills inquiries
07/31/2015 09:48 PM CDT
<<Ixix, Thank you for confirming that Armored evasion is useful for dodging maneuvers. Maybe that means people will take us rogues up on offering Armored Evasion. Is there any way you could confirm how the formula works? I would prefer not to train in Armored evasion if it doesn't give me any benefit for wearing brig.>>
The formula on the wiki is correct: (Armored Evasion Ranks * (7 - (Armor Group)) / 2), the only other catch that I see is that the reduction can't take you below an AP of 0.
It works as a direct reduction of your Action Penalty (for those things that take it into account that I mentioned earlier). Taking brigandine for example - you have a base AP of 12. Your Armor Group is 3 - with say, 3 ranks, you'd get a (3 * (7 - 3) / 2) reduction for a total of 6, reducing your AP to 6. If you were in Metal Breastplate, AG 5, you'd get (3 * (7 - 5) / 2) for a total of 3 reduction (from 20 to 17 in that instance).
That Action Penalty value then goes on to factor into those various things in different ways, but the closer your AP is to 0, the better.
The wiki lists APs as a negative value, these examples are just using the absolute value in case anybody is confused by that.
Ixix
The formula on the wiki is correct: (Armored Evasion Ranks * (7 - (Armor Group)) / 2), the only other catch that I see is that the reduction can't take you below an AP of 0.
It works as a direct reduction of your Action Penalty (for those things that take it into account that I mentioned earlier). Taking brigandine for example - you have a base AP of 12. Your Armor Group is 3 - with say, 3 ranks, you'd get a (3 * (7 - 3) / 2) reduction for a total of 6, reducing your AP to 6. If you were in Metal Breastplate, AG 5, you'd get (3 * (7 - 5) / 2) for a total of 3 reduction (from 20 to 17 in that instance).
That Action Penalty value then goes on to factor into those various things in different ways, but the closer your AP is to 0, the better.
The wiki lists APs as a negative value, these examples are just using the absolute value in case anybody is confused by that.
Ixix
RATHBONER
Re: Armor skills inquiries
08/02/2015 05:29 AM CDT
Ixix: armor evasion helps more than just DS
Me: are you sure about that, the documentation says otherwise?
Ixix: (goes away, checks) its just the DS
...
a bit later later in another exchange
...
Me: armor evasion affects just your DS.
Ixix: it affects all sorts of other things.
...
Do you actually know what you are talking about here, or have you just forgotten what you discovered the first time you checked?
A couple of examples of different ways of I think it might be coded:
AP is a number that is stored on the character and updated by things that change it and lots of rolls call that number but don't generate a recalculation.
1) Armor evasion doesn't cause a recalculation of AP, but the DS calculation does call on armor evasion.
Consequently only DS is affected by armor evasion.
2) Armor evasion does cause a recalculation of AP.
Consequently it does affect everything that AP affects.
Is 1 or 2 or something else more or less the way it works?
...
and something else that occurs to me. Is it necessary to remove and replace armor rather than just refreshing, to get the benefits after learning an extra rank?
Me: are you sure about that, the documentation says otherwise?
Ixix: (goes away, checks) its just the DS
...
a bit later later in another exchange
...
Me: armor evasion affects just your DS.
Ixix: it affects all sorts of other things.
...
Do you actually know what you are talking about here, or have you just forgotten what you discovered the first time you checked?
A couple of examples of different ways of I think it might be coded:
AP is a number that is stored on the character and updated by things that change it and lots of rolls call that number but don't generate a recalculation.
1) Armor evasion doesn't cause a recalculation of AP, but the DS calculation does call on armor evasion.
Consequently only DS is affected by armor evasion.
2) Armor evasion does cause a recalculation of AP.
Consequently it does affect everything that AP affects.
Is 1 or 2 or something else more or less the way it works?
...
and something else that occurs to me. Is it necessary to remove and replace armor rather than just refreshing, to get the benefits after learning an extra rank?
GS4-IXIX
Re: Armor skills inquiries
08/02/2015 08:01 AM CDT
I think that the last time that it came up I was looking for a specific thing (CMANs perhaps) that was being discussed, and missed these other mechanics. My apologies for the confusion.
Something else.
You do have to refresh your armor skill when learning a rank in evasion to apply your new skill, but you do not have to remove/wear the armor first. Armored stealth is the same way.
Ixix
Something else.
You do have to refresh your armor skill when learning a rank in evasion to apply your new skill, but you do not have to remove/wear the armor first. Armored stealth is the same way.
Ixix
