I understand that you might not think you need ambush for an open archer, but don't forget that after 40 ranks in ambush you begin to see an increase in your AS.

---

Speaking for my rangers build, it isn't that I have forgotten about the ambush AS bonus so much as the additional AS isn't needed nearly as much as the additional defense provided by MOC (for force on force) and additional ranks in Dodge training. Ambush training is a later in life goal once I have reached 2x in Dodge.

As a kneeling crossbow user, AS is pretty much a non-issue at this point and the AS bonus provided by Ambush doesn't really start to add up until you get up there a bit in levels.

-- Robert

I changed over to ranged with my archer as soon as it came out. I was in my mid 30's and it was during the days when you had to have brawling training for any kind of DS. I am now capped and I've never had a force on force issue and I have zero MOC. I hunt warcamps and have been in MAJOR invasion scenarios and with the exception of the instant death from something odd I rarely, if ever, die. I now wear high enchant heavily crit padded hauberk, carry a 7x longbow and a bone crushing heavy crossbow for the odd high DS invasion critter and am extremely well trained, but I made it to my 80's in Forest Green Brig and did quite well. I have always been a fan of having enough defense through armor and dodge to keep me alive, but I've always felt you can never have too much AS. Once you hit the lower 40's I wouldn't sacrifice my doubled ambush and perception for anything. Granted, this is just my opinion, but I've been a kick butt archer for my entire ranged career.

ps. I leave the sniping to the rogues. It's my opinion that rangers fare far better as open archers, even with our magic to help with sniping.

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard

>>A well-trained archer ranger will be an executioner regardless of whether or not they choose to focus on ambush.

People who say this confuse me. At 52 the difference between 0 ambush and 2x ambush is 16/17 AS, and the difference between 1x and 2x is 13 AS. A ranger I knew went from being able to hit seekers with any die roll to needing a 14+ by dropping down to 1x ambush from 2x. At cap the differences in training are even larger, the difference between 0 ambush and 2x ambush is 40, the difference between 1x ambush and 2x ambush is 25. There is a big difference between needing to set up your target and just shooting it in the face. You could use outside sources to make up the difference in AS easy enough but then you are spending silvers on something the other person doesn't have to.

>>It's optional.

Most things in this game are optional in their own way, doesn't stop some options from being better then others.

>>If ambush is something you see your archer having than by all means train in it anyway but for a ranger that isn't cap or near cap, I wouldn't suggest training in it strictly from a cost vs reward standpoint.

Once you hit level 20 training 2x in ranged and perception you are gaining 2.5 AS per level. So at 52 with 2x in ambush you'd have a bit more AS then someone who is 58 and no ambush. You say it isn't worth it from a cost vs reward stand point, try using 211 for about 10 levels, then go without it, or if you use it already go hunt without for 10 levels. I am not saying that everyone should train or needs to train 2x ambush but there is definitely a marked difference between the two, trying to say otherwise is just kind of silly. It is like pures, you can go from 0 to cap with 2x in spells but doing it with 3x spells makes the trip a lot easier, reward is there for the cost just because you choose to ignore it doesn't mean it isn't there.

I think the point isn't that there's no benefit vs. cost, but that the cost doesn't justify the benefit until later levels, when TPs are less of an issue. My ranger is 1x ambush, mostly for sniping, and has no issues. 2x would be an unnecessary waste of TPs. My open-archer bard, on the other hand, has zero ambush and hits like a ton of trolls. No ambush required.

It just depends on what your goals are. If you're a power-gamer, maybe having the highest AS possible matters to you. But I think most characters--perhaps none more so than rangers--are better served with a more diverse range of skills.

~ Heathyr and friends

My issue has been that people make it sound like you are just as combat effective without 2x ambush, but that is untrue. Even at the example level of 52 there is a difference and you still aren't half way to cap by that point.

>>My open-archer bard, on the other hand, has zero ambush and hits like a ton of trolls. No ambush required.

Your bard also has access to kai's, which is a base of 10 AS and a total of +20 at 17 bard songs known, then you have 425 which has a base of 25 AS. So ,for a grand total of 42 spell ranks you get more AS then a capped ranger does from 202 ranks of ambush. Guess I should shout nerf bards? Although I'd prefer the opposite, to improve those that need it in comparison.

In the long run the game is about fun and do what you want towards those ends, it just annoys me when people are misleading.

Combat effective is a pretty broad term. Does it mean you kill stuff faster? Does it mean you can survive a hit better? Does it mean you can survive a hunt longer? All of the above?

I personally like to have a balanced character. For me its just as important to be able to survive a hunt as it is to be able to instantly kill a monster. Yes a dead monster will not kill you but a high AS does not stop you from walking into a swing in the next room. With that said I believe a ranger at 1x is as combat effective as one with 2x.

Pup's player

<You say it isn't worth it from a cost vs reward stand point, try using 211 for about 10 levels, then go without it, or if you use it already go hunt without for 10 levels.>

Rangers can't cast 211 and given it's exceedingly short duration when cast by others, I'm fairly certain the only rangers that ever hunt with 211 on either spend a lot of silvers getting items with it from special merchants or are MAing.

If you're trying to compare a ranger training in ambush to a cleric or empath hunting with 211, you're comparing apples to oranges. Empaths and clerics can't aim their spells at specific body parts that are more likely to kill while archers can (and most ranger and rogue archers do), weapon wielding empaths/clerics will quickly find themselves unable to hit much of anything if they don't learn 211, and the TPs spent learning 211 don't just get you the the benefits of 211 (you also get the benefits of the 10 spells before it).

My (level 32) ranger trains 1.5X in ambush, but the AS benefits don't even factor into the decision to train in it. Sure it's nice to have and I prolly would miss it if I fixskilled it away, but if I was hunting from the open rather then the shadows I know I'd need to pick up skills I don't currently have to boost my defenses and Ambush would be among the first to go to get that since I'd no longer need it to aim my shots.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

<<<Clarification is required here; what kind of troll? >>>

Green.

~ Heathyr and friends

Pretty sure 211 was meant as.. Hunt with the increased AS then drop it and you will notice a difference in your ability to get a death crit vs a nonlethal hit but I don't notice it that much. I do have a few 211 items and run with it on sometimes and to be honest I don't really notice too much of a difference except vs plate or when something has WoF on in which case I just pop 117 if i am getting some low rolls. Or when I feel like stroking the epeen and be like OHH BIG NUMBER! Which i'm pretty sure we all like to do every now and then.

But anyways, I've always 1x'd ambushing because 2x is just WAY to many points for the benefit you get from it. Only now at 89 am I starting to go above 1x (I believe i'm at 102 ranks? so not far off from 1x) while at the same time trying to get over 1x PT and CM (just randomly pumping all 3 at once). For a lower level ranger you just won't be able to spend those points unless you really cut back on something that IMO gives you a bigger benefit. Spells, hiding (if you snipe), harness, MIU blah blah.. I find way more important than the few AS that I'm missing. With MIU, you can use haste/ewave imbeds which makes up for the AS. With more harness, you can 607/608/610/615/117 more often which makes up for the AS.

And if you are comparing having AS Songs to offset the ambushing well 608 can be a pretty consistent AS boost once you can snipe. I use 608 pretty close to 100% of the time when warcamping.

But at the end of the day what it comes down to is.. how do you want to play? Do you want to have the ability to utilize a bunch a few different options or be the power hunting 1 trick pony? 2x Ambushing is super expensive and I wouldn't advise it. I would say do 1x for sniping but a lot of people will say sniping is a waste to but I would never give up my ability to snipe. I ain't standing toe to swarm in warcamps, I'm happy hiding behind a hut.



Daemon Ranger

Or blessing lore for Resists!....... That blessing lore so underpowered vs Summoning :( It needs a buff! (totally off-topic but I had to let it out! I need a reason to train in blessing lore)

Daemon Ranger

Changed the subject to not totally hijack the thread.

Blessing Lore:
601 - Hiding and DS
602 - DS
604 - % skin value
613 - TD
625 - Stronger resists

vs

Summoning Lore:
612 - Cause RT
614 - Bigger imbeds
615 - potency of swarm (not sure what this actually does since my swarm rarely ever screws up)
616 - extra cycles
635 - extra cycles
118 - Better Area Webs

I think in most cases Summoning lore is just the clear winner since GS isn't really about defense.. it's about killing them faster than they can kill you. I know that's not a complete list since blessing buffs some more defensive things in the 100's also but I just jotted down the ones that stand out more to me. I also feel like 614 should be more of a blessing thing than a summoning. I also wish blessing lore effected the cooldown/duration of aspects on 650 so there would be a little more reason to train in blessing. 100 ranks takes away the cooldown? I would have a much better reason to pass on the added effectiveness of 616 and 635 (which really seems to be the main reason to even train in lores)


Daemon Ranger

I'd say for your typical day to day use, the only useful thing summoning lore does is buff spike thorn. Even 635 isn't really useful until much higher levels. Blessing, on the other hand, does a bunch of useful incremental stuff. Shrug. Honestly, I think rangers have a nicely balanced set of lore selections.

Player of Zeek