>>So.. Paladins are.. clerics?<<

Arkati aligned warriors; paraclerics?


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>Arkati aligned warriors; paraclerics?

But now we're back where we started, with paladins not having an identity besides "warriors with spells." To the degree that paladins have an identity that isn't something warriors can do better, it's something clerics can do better. Is there any other class you could make that claim about? What are paladins the best at?

>>Paladins don't have a NEW identity because the idea of Paladins were an established aspect of an older profession, not an entirely new one.

This is true, but it's not a solution, just a statement of the problem. If paladins are nothing more than "mutant clerics," you're probably still better off playing a mutant cleric, because at least you can raise and bless a weapon. (Blessing a weapon is a good example of a fundamentally martial-focused spell that didn't get split off as you describe, leaving paladins with a lackluster spell that does nothing but improve abilities they don't inherently have.) That's why paladins need something characteristic to them, rather than derivative of another class.

Lay the fault of the Paladin idea at the feet of Gary Gygax. He took the idea of Roland, et al, and made it into a class with a very Christian mindset. Yes, they've added and adjusted over the years, but the idea of a holy warrior is really just a blend of cleric and warrior, as folks have mentioned.

Personally, I feel there is the beginning of a concept in the Paladin class design, but the spells and guild (cough, cough) are where it should shine. The actual reason that paladins exist needs to be looked at and amplified. In my mind, we're servants of our Arkati, usually divinely gifted by our individual Arkati to be their Chosen.

The flavor of the class needs to reflect that more.

>Isn't that a pretty big deal?
ZENDADA

No.

Not everyone wears those rosy-tinted sunglasses that you do. Seriously, we get it. You think Paladins are l33t and everything you expect them to be and more. You're content and Nothing is going to change your mind on the state of Paladins, or how to train and effectively hunt one.

Just like no post is going to change your mind about things, it's pretty equally clear your bright-eyed and bushy tailed posts aren't going to convince those of us that believe Paladins need an actual identity beyond 'magical warriors' and neutered clerics.

Trying to convince us (generalized to those wanting serious improvements) is about as useful as discussing Paladin infuse. And we all know how that turned out.

-farmer
>"Mine lights my character on fire and makes her all glowy." -Raelee

>>Personally, I feel there is the beginning of a concept in the Paladin class design, but the spells and guild (cough, cough) are where it should shine. The actual reason that paladins exist needs to be looked at and amplified. In my mind, we're servants of our Arkati, usually divinely gifted by our individual Arkati to be their Chosen.

This is what I'd like to see.

In my (noncanonical) mind the big difference is that, while clerics have a connection to an Arkati that they pursue and refine with study and devotion, paladins have a connection to their Arkati that they DON'T pursue and refine. Clerics spend their time studying magic in order to channel their Arkati's power. Paladins spend their time studying warfare, but the Arkati comes to them anyway. That's why paladins can cast in armor so well -- the Arkati does most of the work. (Another way of looking at this is that to paladins, combat is itself a form of worship.)

I think most of the existing spells and fluff fit relatively well in this framework. When paladins prepare a non-combat spell, the messaging calls their spell "simple." When they prepare a combat spell, they're "confident" and "forceful." While I don't love the implication that paladins are just too dumb to cast good noncombat spells and that's why they have no utility, I think this illustrates where paladins feel comfortable and what their magic is for. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have utility spells. They should have utility! It should be about martial blessings and improving melee weapons and armor, not just for the paladin themselves, but for those around them. (Honestly, if I wanted to make paladins more sought out very quickly, I would just give paladins Bless Item. Clerics can have Purify! It's a distinctive spell with many different applications!) If they raise the dead, it should be limited (as it is currently), but it should also be usable in combat or in dangerous areas. This doesn't mean they shouldn't have non-disabler magical attacks, either -- but those magical attacks should be most useful with a weapon in hand.

As long as paladins are defined as mutant clerics, we won't be able to compete with warriors or clerics. Instead, let's call paladins personal representatives of the gods, wreaking small miracles with their intensity and self-sacrifice that refined clerical study is too distant to handle. Paladins don't pray in temples, they pray in trenches, right before they go over the top.

Heh. Pious thugs.

Chad, player of a few

Hisorical literary figures adequate to the Elanthian notion of a paladin:
Cortez
The Arthurian Knights
Heath Ledger's Joker (Paladin of Sheru or maybe Zelia)
Judge Dredd or any figure that serves justice itself

Basically any figure that serves a principle, but whose purpose is to take martial action when that principle is flagrantly and routinely violated. Representing this mechanically such that the diversity of principles can be given a place is probably what's made this such a tall order.

Player of Wobert

>> Personally I base my paladin on Sir Galahad the Chaste from Monty Python and The Holy Grail.<<


Sounds good to me ...

Bad bad Zoot! I must be punished!

First the punishment, then the ... umm, never mind.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

The bells of Hell go ting-a-ling-a-ling for you but not for me

>Honestly, each Arkati's paladin should have very different skills, if you want to drill down. A paladin of Onar would be an assassin, striking from the shadows with the divine gift of her god. My own paladin follows Ronan, and should have relevant dream skills like mind fogs and dreams and sleep.

I mean, yes and no. Even Onar needs footsoldiers to protect his worldly interests. I get what you're saying though. There's something inherently impossible to making a paladin class in a universe with a full blown pantheon of gods. At the end of the day, a paladin of Onar would be a rouge, and a paladin of Imaera a ranger, etc. I would say the conflict here is the fact that the paladin class was primarily conceived on the model of the Arthurian legend, which is monotheistic in content. I think the best that can be expected is to work the deity's flavors into the spells in meaningful ways. As it currently stands, they aren't even represented in the spells in a cursory way, hence the generic quality of the spell list.

Player of Wobert

>We do have flavor messaging and differing crit tables for Divine Strike/Judgement.

I'm sort of envisioning something with the diversity of assume aspect (650). I mean, you could totally give paladins a spell like that in the Avatar idea that's been kicked around. It'd be a bit of a knockoff, but meh whatever. It would be pretty cool if a paladin of Onar could cast Avatar and gain the ability to ambush for like 2 minutes or something, with some cool shadow messaging. Stuff like that. I'd chug out some more ideas, but I think I'll wait til I'm feeling really ambitious and go through all the major arkati.

Player of Wobert