DPS seems to go roughly 10,9,11,25 as you go from 1 through to 4 strikes. I think this is a consequence of minimum RT being set well above base RT at 2 and 3 strikes but well below it at 4 and above, so AGIDEX can't do anything for you until you have the quad strike at which point it suddenly does a lot for you. 5s for a quadpunch is a massive improvement over 9s for the triple and 7s for the double is terrible value compared to 3s for the single.
Anyone seeing this differently to me? Quadstrike, or forget it.
RATHBONER
CAVEMANIAC
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/14/2015 11:49 AM CDT
Wow that is a big issue if thats the RT progression. I never thought to check the 2-3 hit mstrikes.
BNHRB4
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/14/2015 02:16 PM CDT
The only time I see an increase in RT over 5 seconds is when cman burst isnt in effect. Then I get 6 seconds, and sometimes 7 seconds. But I dont think its with fewer than 4 to 5 strikes. I'll see if I can borrow someone to do some testing in plat.
With burst active I have a 140 in both dex and agility. Without, I think I have a 125 and 118.
R.
BNHRB4
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/14/2015 02:18 PM CDT
I'm not sure what you mean for DPS progression. If you mean the DPS goes up with the more strikes, I think this is more dependent on the automatic Tiering you're doing against your target/s.
R.
COSTELLOK
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/14/2015 02:31 PM CDT
With 5 ranks moc my typical 2 target open mstrike (2 free jabs, 2 regular) is 7-8 seconds, depending on whether a kick happens.
Fyonn's player
Fyonn's player
RATHBONER
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 06:34 AM CDT
>I'm not sure what you mean for DPS progression.
Damage per seoond going from a single attack to 2 then 3 then 4 mstrikes.
All the same shot at the same tier. e.g. ms punch critter takes 7s for 2 punches, which is more than twice as long as the single punch RT so DPS goes down, then 9s for 3 punches, so its the same as 3 single punches, then can drop to 5s for 4 punches, so DPS shoots up.
>With 5 ranks moc my typical 2 target open mstrike (2 free jabs, 2 regular) is 7-8 seconds, depending on whether a kick happens.
Free jabs make the RT look rather more worth taking, and I think about the only situations I'd actually use mstrike with less than 90 ranks MOC are when (almost) all of the targets will give the freebie.
Damage per seoond going from a single attack to 2 then 3 then 4 mstrikes.
All the same shot at the same tier. e.g. ms punch critter takes 7s for 2 punches, which is more than twice as long as the single punch RT so DPS goes down, then 9s for 3 punches, so its the same as 3 single punches, then can drop to 5s for 4 punches, so DPS shoots up.
>With 5 ranks moc my typical 2 target open mstrike (2 free jabs, 2 regular) is 7-8 seconds, depending on whether a kick happens.
Free jabs make the RT look rather more worth taking, and I think about the only situations I'd actually use mstrike with less than 90 ranks MOC are when (almost) all of the targets will give the freebie.
RATHBONER
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 06:54 AM CDT
>The only time I see an increase in RT over 5 seconds is when cman burst isnt in effect. Then I get 6 seconds, and sometimes 7 seconds. But I dont think its with fewer than 4 to 5 strikes. I'll see if I can borrow someone to do some testing in plat.
You can use MSTRIKE SET and MSTRIKE SET FOCUS to limit your strikes to less than the maximum permitted. Whether this would increase your RT to the RT someone with lower MOC would get I don't know, but it would be interesting to check whether your RT went up if you used MSTRIKE SET FOCUS 2/3. I'm also not sure what RT you get if you have 4 strikes available but the critter dies on the second. If it works like weaponry you might actually find your RT going up as a result of killing the critter before all your strikes were used up.
>With burst active I have a 140 in both dex and agility. Without, I think I have a 125 and 118.
Its the bonus rather than the stat that counts. These stats could give rather different RT reductions depending on race.
You can use MSTRIKE SET and MSTRIKE SET FOCUS to limit your strikes to less than the maximum permitted. Whether this would increase your RT to the RT someone with lower MOC would get I don't know, but it would be interesting to check whether your RT went up if you used MSTRIKE SET FOCUS 2/3. I'm also not sure what RT you get if you have 4 strikes available but the critter dies on the second. If it works like weaponry you might actually find your RT going up as a result of killing the critter before all your strikes were used up.
>With burst active I have a 140 in both dex and agility. Without, I think I have a 125 and 118.
Its the bonus rather than the stat that counts. These stats could give rather different RT reductions depending on race.
GOLDENOAK2
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 08:18 AM CDT
One thing I would request from GMs is that Base RT (not minimum RT) for Punch, Grapple and Kick get a 1 second reduction. Currently the base RT for those attacks is coming in as equal to the minimum which is not inline with most other light weapons where the base is less than the minimum.
The RT issue that some are seeing with UAC mstrike is also noticeable when encumbered in that it takes much less encumbrance to slow down a UAC weapon user than someone using some other light weapon, because the base RT on something like a fist scythe is actually 2 seconds less than the minimum rt for the weapon. Or to put it another way...without armor and dex/agi bonus, a Fist Scythe user has to be moderately hindered before their weapon noticeably slows down...someone using UAC would slow down starting at light encumbrance.
The RT issue that some are seeing with UAC mstrike is also noticeable when encumbered in that it takes much less encumbrance to slow down a UAC weapon user than someone using some other light weapon, because the base RT on something like a fist scythe is actually 2 seconds less than the minimum rt for the weapon. Or to put it another way...without armor and dex/agi bonus, a Fist Scythe user has to be moderately hindered before their weapon noticeably slows down...someone using UAC would slow down starting at light encumbrance.
RATHBONER
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 09:25 AM CDT
I suspect that its base RT = min RT that is behind high RT for 2 and 3 strikes.
weapon base 5 min 5, double strike has base 9 but base 9 weaponry has min 5 so my 30 AGIDEX kicks in and the actual mstrike I see is 7s.
punch base 3 min 3, double strike has base 7 but base 7 UAC has min 7 and there is no AGIDEX reduction and my actual mstrike stays at 7s despite AGIDEX.
weapon base 5 min 5, double strike has base 9 but base 9 weaponry has min 5 so my 30 AGIDEX kicks in and the actual mstrike I see is 7s.
punch base 3 min 3, double strike has base 7 but base 7 UAC has min 7 and there is no AGIDEX reduction and my actual mstrike stays at 7s despite AGIDEX.
BNHRB4
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 09:26 AM CDT
With 2 or 3 strikes my mstrike RT is still only 5 seconds. The only time it goes up is if I'm encumbered and using the full 5 strikes. It goes to 6 seconds with no cman surge up, and to 7 seconds if cman burst is down.
These are the normal stats I have while hunting. I have enough stamina and regen that I dont normally have any downtime on surge or burst.
R.
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (30) ... 138 (49)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 112 (31)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 140 (45)
Agility (AGI): 100 (25) ... 140 (45)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 111 (30)
Aura (AUR): 94 (22) ... 112 (31)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Intuition (INT): 94 (27) ... 104 (32)
Wisdom (WIS): 83 (16) ... 93 (21)
Influence (INF): 57 (3) ... 67 (8)
RATHBONER
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 10:03 AM CDT
It looks like the ability to get AGIDEX reduction is being unlocked by the training level rather than the strike number.
I thought I'd seen a clip of Roblar's that came in a 7s (for an open mstrike against a single target) so I was thinking that the 7s I see was the minimum possible to achieve on a double. Finros said 9s was the RT for the triple punch so I was thinking the 9s I see was also the minimum possible there.
So what does it take to turn 3,7,9 (me at 70 ranks MOC and 2s worth of AGIDEX) into 3,5,5 (you at 190+ ranks MOC and 6s of AGIDEX)
I'm suspecting it takes 90 ranks MOC and 4s of AGIDEX but I don't have any way to test intermediate stat and training levels between those two data points in the near future.
I thought I'd seen a clip of Roblar's that came in a 7s (for an open mstrike against a single target) so I was thinking that the 7s I see was the minimum possible to achieve on a double. Finros said 9s was the RT for the triple punch so I was thinking the 9s I see was also the minimum possible there.
So what does it take to turn 3,7,9 (me at 70 ranks MOC and 2s worth of AGIDEX) into 3,5,5 (you at 190+ ranks MOC and 6s of AGIDEX)
I'm suspecting it takes 90 ranks MOC and 4s of AGIDEX but I don't have any way to test intermediate stat and training levels between those two data points in the near future.
RATHBONER
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 11:52 AM CDT
more data off a different character
15 ranks MOC, 5s AGIDEX, using open attacks rather than focussed but only picking out those where all targets were attacked with punch
5s for the double and 6s for the triple punch.
Looks like
double punch has base RT of 9 seconds, reducible to 5 by AGIDEX.
triple punch has base RT of 11 seconds, reducible to 5 by AGIDEX
But
I'd have expected to see RT go up from 6 when surge wore off on the halfling if all 5 of AGIDEX was being used to pull it down from 11 to 6 and none was available to offset encumberance and it didn't.
However, it does look like sensible UAC mstrike RT can be achieved at modest MOC if you have huge AGIDEX.
15 ranks MOC, 5s AGIDEX, using open attacks rather than focussed but only picking out those where all targets were attacked with punch
5s for the double and 6s for the triple punch.
Looks like
double punch has base RT of 9 seconds, reducible to 5 by AGIDEX.
triple punch has base RT of 11 seconds, reducible to 5 by AGIDEX
But
I'd have expected to see RT go up from 6 when surge wore off on the halfling if all 5 of AGIDEX was being used to pull it down from 11 to 6 and none was available to offset encumberance and it didn't.
However, it does look like sensible UAC mstrike RT can be achieved at modest MOC if you have huge AGIDEX.
BNHRB4
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/15/2015 02:24 PM CDT
This is at somewhat encumbered 3 targets, open mstrike punch.
Strength (STR): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 112 (31)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 125 (37)
Agility (AGI): 100 (25) ... 114 (32)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 111 (30)
Aura (AUR): 94 (22) ... 112 (31)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Intuition (INT): 94 (27) ... 104 (32)
Wisdom (WIS): 83 (16) ... 93 (21)
Influence (INF): 57 (3) ... 67 (8)
I had the same 6 seconds of RT with an open mstrike against 4 targets. 5 open targets took me to 7 seconds.
open or focused against 1 target was 6 seconds as well. Even with just 1 strike against a single focused target.
Hope this helps the research
Strength (STR): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 112 (31)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 125 (37)
Agility (AGI): 100 (25) ... 114 (32)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 111 (30)
Aura (AUR): 94 (22) ... 112 (31)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Intuition (INT): 94 (27) ... 104 (32)
Wisdom (WIS): 83 (16) ... 93 (21)
Influence (INF): 57 (3) ... 67 (8)
I had the same 6 seconds of RT with an open mstrike against 4 targets. 5 open targets took me to 7 seconds.
open or focused against 1 target was 6 seconds as well. Even with just 1 strike against a single focused target.
Hope this helps the research
RATHBONER
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/16/2015 06:32 AM CDT
6s for the double and triple would imply that you were seeing 2s worth of encumberance penalty on the double strike and none on the triple. (then none on the quad and 1 on the quint)
I'm fairly sure there's a cap on how much RT an mstrike can be that's applied after adding encumberance penalty, (from distant memories of swinging a lance faster with mstrike than single strike). That didn't kick in till extreme encumberance though. I wonder if the unencumbered RT for UAC is so high that its getting caught by that cap almost straight away and its actually possible to do a triple at extreme encumberance without any RT penalty?
Punches only:
Double strike: 7s with 2 AGIDEX, 5s with 5 or 6 AGIDEX, 6s with somewhat encumbered 5 AGIDEX
Triple strike: 9s with 2 AGIDEX, 5s with 6 AGIDEX, 6s with 5 AGIDEX to at least somewhat encumbered
It would be nice to have confirmation that the RT goes higher at lower AGIDEX, some races are pretty likely to just have 1 AGIDEX at low level, though I doubt 0 is possible without obviously terrible stats.
Note on kicks
So far my observation is that any number of kicks causes 1s to be added to the purely punch mstrike, whether its all 3 kicks, or just 1 kick and 2 punches, its an extra second, but that extra second can be offset by AGIDEX i.e. the minimum remains 5s.
If there's anyone out there with a lot of enhancives on an agile race that gets 7 AGIDEX (summed bonuses of at least 98) it would be nice to know if the triple kick drops to 5s.
I'm fairly sure there's a cap on how much RT an mstrike can be that's applied after adding encumberance penalty, (from distant memories of swinging a lance faster with mstrike than single strike). That didn't kick in till extreme encumberance though. I wonder if the unencumbered RT for UAC is so high that its getting caught by that cap almost straight away and its actually possible to do a triple at extreme encumberance without any RT penalty?
Punches only:
Double strike: 7s with 2 AGIDEX, 5s with 5 or 6 AGIDEX, 6s with somewhat encumbered 5 AGIDEX
Triple strike: 9s with 2 AGIDEX, 5s with 6 AGIDEX, 6s with 5 AGIDEX to at least somewhat encumbered
It would be nice to have confirmation that the RT goes higher at lower AGIDEX, some races are pretty likely to just have 1 AGIDEX at low level, though I doubt 0 is possible without obviously terrible stats.
Note on kicks
So far my observation is that any number of kicks causes 1s to be added to the purely punch mstrike, whether its all 3 kicks, or just 1 kick and 2 punches, its an extra second, but that extra second can be offset by AGIDEX i.e. the minimum remains 5s.
If there's anyone out there with a lot of enhancives on an agile race that gets 7 AGIDEX (summed bonuses of at least 98) it would be nice to know if the triple kick drops to 5s.
RATHBONER
Re: MOC training for mstrike
09/16/2015 07:32 AM CDT
Testing extreme encumberance: "Very Heavy" gives 14s worth of encumberance penalty on the single punch, 5 of which is offset by AGIDEX, for RT of 12s against 3s unencumbered and no penalty at all on the triple which remained at the same 6s as when unencumbered.
Double and triple punch both look like they are capped at 11s before AGIDEX and after encumberance so that its possible to be slowed by 1 or 2 seconds on a double strike, but the triple is unaffected by encumberance.
(My DS was absolutely slaughtered though, I had to drop stuff and remove right arms to do the test as I was being hit in defensive by critters I had 70 levels on)
Double and triple punch both look like they are capped at 11s before AGIDEX and after encumberance so that its possible to be slowed by 1 or 2 seconds on a double strike, but the triple is unaffected by encumberance.
(My DS was absolutely slaughtered though, I had to drop stuff and remove right arms to do the test as I was being hit in defensive by critters I had 70 levels on)
