1) Meditate.
It is shameful that there is no monk specific messaging for meditate this long after release. Any new player will expect monks to have a meditate power.

Newbmonk asks you, "Why can't I meditate properly?"
whisper ooc newbmonk Monks are a new profession and meditate is reserved for other professions and a use that would be inappropriate to monks.
Newbmonk says, "Thats crap."
Newbmonk just left.
agree newbmonk

Meditate doesn't have to give a monk mana, but messaging that calls a new player an idiot for thinking the meditate was a suitable thing for a monk to do is completely indefensible.

There is plenty of other messaging that hasn't adjusted to monks being a separate class rather than a alternate name for a cleric, and some of the legacy ought to have been dealt with, and it shouldn't have been added to since release, but meditate is by far the worst from the point of view of presenting the game to a new player.

2) 3rd party messaging for UAC
I come across Newbwarrior who is having trouble waving a claidh at rats. I can take Newbwarrior into the catacombs, toggle my messaging options, and see enough detail to diagnose why Newbwarrior is having problems and give advice on how to manage more effectively. I come across Newbmonk who is having trouble grappling with rats, and I can't toggle my options to see enough detail to diagnose why Newbmonk is having problems. To get that detail, Newbmonk has to toggle their options to get the detail into their log and then send me the log or post it to a public place. This isn't something that I'd want to ask a new player to do.

UAC is not only a more complex system to get to grips with, its also a system which lacks the possibility of in game tutoring thats available for other professions.

Its not the only issue with low level monk play, but it is the one where it is most difficult to help a new player.

3) Group hunting
Some of the reasons why UAC works much better solo than grouped are intractable. They are a necessary consequence of its flavor. However monks lack a profession appropriate multi target disabler. 1207 works as a single target disabler to help a partner, but 1219 only works for monks, as well as being CS-based its too slow to operate even when it hits the targets to help other classes. Krynch does a job in multitarget environments when the monk is solo, but in a group, position never gets achieved in the first place so there's never a chance to carry it over.

This is something that is a known issue for squares for well over a decade, has been attended to in development for rogues and warriors both before and after monk release, but monks were released without it being addressed adequately and have been omitted from general square development that addressed it since release.

Its not the only issue of lack of monk development but its the one that is liable to hurt a player that has got sucked into the game the most. You get into the game, you work out UAC tactics, you get over the inappropriate messaging, you make a bunch of friends that you hunt with, and 9 months heavy play later you find you've levelled to a point where you are only viable solo in empty hunting grounds.

I have no idea what problems a monk has at cap, but from my returning/newb monk perspective, tps are the main thing that would turn someone off of this profession. Compared to my bard or sorcerer, I've got no wiggle room for utility. None. Mainly because 3x dodge and 2x CM feel like a necessity.

I'm sure that's been voiced before.

Monk-specific meditation messaging would give the profession some more flavor, which it does sort of need. Group hunting improvements would be great, but any class with Anchorite as a title should be expected to be kind of a loner. As it stands, though, you can't get enough utility stuff to really shine as a solo character, at least at lower levels.

Just a bit of a nit pick here. Rogues are not better than monks at unarmed combat. They have access to the same mastery skills but monks have UAC specific spells and maneuvers that only they get. What rogues are better at is ambushing. You can argue that ambush UAC is more deadly than open UAC but the same can be said about any weapon skill. Saying rogues are better than monks at UAC is like saying rogues are better than warriors at swords.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

True enough, but this points out a weakness in the UAC concept. Ambushing rogues using UAC get an automatic tier up, while monks (or ANY profession for that matter) using UAC from the open have to jab away a few times before getting to that sweet spot.

True enough, but this points out the strength in the Ambushing concept. Ambushing rogues using swords get an automatic large amount of natural crit weighting, while warriors (or ANY profession for that matter) using swords from the open have to stab away a few times before getting to that sweet kill.

Again this is a function of ambush, not of UAC. Ambush attacks are designed to be more efficient because they require a different kind of set up, hiding. Would I personally choose to play an open UAC monk? No, but I won't play a sword and board warrior either. I tend towards faster, more efficient combat methods because apparently I stopped having fun years ago and the only thing that matters to me is how quickly I can kill everything and loot it. Back in the day though I played a sorcerer (both before and after Growing Pains but for this conversation after is what we are concerned with). My primary kill spell was 702 and I used all manner of other spells to disable and set up creatures. He was not the quickest killer but he could hunt anything safely with proper tactics. UAC provides a great deal of status effects and monks have the ability to disable fairly well so I see open UAC in the same vein. Not the fastest but it's all about using proper tactics. Finros has been quite clear that he wants to slow things down, so I don't expect that to change.

The problem is that monks are designed to use this system from the open, wearing robes no less, while other professions can more or less choose what weapon system they wish to employ. Yes, you could train your monk to use say, archery, but in that case, why bother being a monk? Better off being a ranger or a sniping rogue.

Actually my monk is quite happily trained in two-handed weapons and wrecks things with 1207 and a katana. Some minor mental spells are of no use to him of course. There are certainly spells and cmans only available to monks that help make his style possible though. The monk class provides the exact style I envisioned with him. Open combat, unarmored, dancing around his foes and delivering devastating precision attacks with his katana. Would I like to see a bit more TD somewhere? Absolutely, but once you remove that weakness I probably don't need to use any tactics at all.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

<<Saying rogues are better than monks at UAC is like saying rogues are better than warriors at swords.>>

If warriors didn't have berserk, this would unequivocally be true. What do monks have?

If warriors didn't have berserk, this would unequivocally be true. What do monks have?

Rolling Krynch Stance

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!

so you MAYBE get a chance to tier up and still not be as effective as ambushing. which is also a martial stance, and takes up the capability to use inner harmony / slippery mind so you can not be a sitting duck for CS checks.

Rogues are the best UAC users.

Kithus, I think a CMAN like that would be a step in the right direction. Personally, I am a huge fan of updating existing mechanics to include bonuses to UAC before adding new ones. I dont play a monk so i'm not entirely sure how these would play out balance wise but some ideas I have had:

UAC masteries - can toggle preferred tier up openings for more efficient progression.
Status effects/positioning - increase(more if already there) tier up chances at varying degrees depending on severity. Additive
Side by Side - provide a flat bonus to tier up chance to help when group hunting
Crowd press - give a flat bonus to tier up chance
Flurry of blows - can choose which attack instead of just jabs
Truehand/mystic strike - Truehand UAC compatible, guaranteed tier up. Give truehand to monks

And so on...This would not only help monks but any profession that wanted to use UAC. Maybe give monks something else to give them a slight edge to make them even better at it. But with more consistent tier openings Krynch would be buffed indirectly as well.

<<UAC masteries - can toggle preferred tier up openings for more efficient progression.
<<Status effects/positioning - increase(more if already there) tier up chances at varying degrees depending on severity. Additive
<<Side by Side - provide a flat bonus to tier up chance to help when group hunting
<<Crowd press - give a flat bonus to tier up chance
<<Flurry of blows - can choose which attack instead of just jabs
<<Truehand/mystic strike - Truehand UAC compatible, guaranteed tier up. Give truehand to monks>>

there is ki focus, which is kinda-truehandish, +35 AS is kind of similar. I think this is an underutilized cman and really fits with the monk flavor quite a bit, it's just not good enough. I think a good addition would be at ranks 2/3 have a 50/100% chance to be an automatic tier up. Combined with krynch you could get what, 100% chance to maintain rank 2 and ~65% to maintain rank 3 when changing targets, at the cost of stamina.

in addition to those i think since other professions are getting the UAC mastery cmans now, something for monks would still be good here. like a full "unarmed" mastery. pre-req grapple/punch/kick rank 1 or something then a 1 or 2 pointer that essentially gives monks the full benefit for all attacks. perhaps even something akin to the warrior / paladin bonding mechanics with the bonus attacks, etc. as well?

<<rowmi's post>>

pretty spot on, and i agree. it feels like i'm a semi, with no powerful semi circle.

slippery mind being a martial stance is a bit of a bummer as well. it doesn't feel like it should be, especially with the lack of CvA in robes.

the whole "stancing" thing as a whole seems kind of lost on monks, which is unfortunate because changing stances seems the most apt for them. but really, if you're uac you're krynch. no changing, and honestly the rest are kind of lackluster for monks in general. even mongoose with a thw is kind of fun but not really that great, as you're probably dodging a lot more than parrying in that circumstance. and it's just not good for uac, in general.

speaking of weapon using, throwing some bones to at least make that a bit more viable secondary path wouldn't be unwelcome. i think every class could use with some diversity, and monks feel very much intended to be on rails to me, more so than other classes. either some little helpers for weapon swinging. disarm protection, maybe from dragon claw or some secondary use for telekentic throw if that's ever finished :D, or even just more diversified UAC options. A stances that would make S/H viable, etc.

someone has suggested previously, can't remember who, letting ambush training on open UAC assist tiering up, i think that's a decent idea as well and the aimed, calculated nature allowing for more progression totally makes sense.

I think Rowmi's post is excellent and hits the nail on the head. The only thing I'd add is that monks seem to be completely lacking in utility. I understand that it's hard to add utility this late in the game's lifespan but some efforts should be made! There's more to this game than just solo hunting.

-Maybe guided meditation to help everyone absorb xp faster or more efficiently.
-Some group buffs if you're hunting with a monk (these might already exist, I don't know many monks tbh)
-Maybe the ability to add temp weighting to weapons. (I really think that's more warrior, but not sure what else is left open these days)

~Just spitballing here so no flames please.

I feel like a monk was made so that there was a reason to revamp unarmed combat... but it's a solution without a problem. Unarmed combat is fairly bottom tier compared to the other attack options and it's not deep enough to fully flesh out a class. It also hamstrings monks because now they're expected to only train in one weapon-form and are designed top to bottom with that in mind. Leaves very little room for player's creativity in character design.

-Maybe the ability to add temp weighting to weapons. (I really think that's more warrior, but not sure what else is left open these days)

Why not temp grapple flares? Sounds rather monk(ey)-ish to me.

General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq

Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Quite so, I meant others only receive the benefit while grouped to the monk. It expires shortly after leaving.

-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.

That spell has lasted on me forever.

I have to jump into the Rift pool, or die, to get rid of it. I've bugged it but nothing.

Also, I am apparently immune to any wand being waved at me! As in, no command goes through when attempted (also bugged)

I broke Gemstone!!!!!!!

ROBLAR

That spell has lasted on me forever.

I have to jump into the Rift pool, or die, to get rid of it. I've bugged it but nothing.

Also, I am apparently immune to any wand being waved at me! As in, no command goes through when attempted (also bugged)

What spell?

GameMaster Estild

ROBLAR

Mind over Body (1213)

This should have happened:

<Group members who leave the group and the immediate room of the caster will lose the spell effect within approximately 60 seconds.>

In my case anyway, it didn't fo days and log ins/outs. Only death or a Rift pool dip restored normalcy to my stamina actions! I assume dispelling myself completely through 119 or 417 would have worked too.

Are you able to reproduce the issue or do you have a log that you can email me?

GameMaster Estild

I think a fairly simple change would be to open up more cman's to monks. Cman's that leverage other viable paths for monks, namely THW and TWC styles. Give monks access to Executioner's Stance and Whirling Dervish. Both would synergize well with their low MOC costs. So monks that want to use MOC have 2 choices open for them, no need to open up UAC development to implement MOC training.

Farther down the list to more complex, I'd also suggest giving monks access to a Shield Maneuver list.

Perhaps an Armor list as well, particularly since training in Armor Use is arguably cheaper than training in Transform Lore for 1202 .. plus it gives CvA. This isn't as needed as a Shield Maneuver list though.

Don't give CvA to 1202, however add a +1 level 0 boost to monk's AsG with it. That would give monks an AsG progression/tp cost close to that of a rogue if they use 1202.*

*As it stands now even Clerics can train Armor Use cheaper than a Monk (8/0 vs. 10/0). If you train Transform Lore for 1202 armor progression its much worse since monks train it at 0/12 and that will assuredly be at double cost because they will be converting physical tp's to do it. So using 1202 is a double penalty, no CvA progression and wildly inflated tp costs over any other square/semi/Cleric ... with physical tp conversion its more expensive than training Armor Use for Wizards/Empaths/Sorcerers as well.

I would also suggest giving monks the ability to use sanctified weapons like a Paladin/Cleric. I understand that the design for them changed to where they had no divine emphasis. I think that was a mistake and should be changed. This is the least likely to ever be adopted, but I wanted to at least throw it out there.

>I would also suggest giving monks the ability to use sanctified weapons like a Paladin/Cleric. I understand that the design for them changed to where they had no divine emphasis. I think that was a mistake and should be changed. This is the least likely to ever be adopted, but I wanted to at least throw it out there.

Just popping in here as a player of a paladin to say that, basically, this idea doesn't bother me. In fact, sanctified weapons are kind of naff as it stands, since most clerics don't use them, and most paladins past level 25 just use 1625.

Granted, I'd like to know what one has in mind for a monk using a sanctified item. Sanctified hand wraps? Or another pathway outside UAC? Just curious...

The only design difficulty with making monks more divine is that they are a hybrid mental/spiritual, and clerics/paladins are pure spiritual. Well, you can interpret the "difficulty" at your own leisure, but I hope you can see my point, even if you disagree.

Iron Skin not doing armor CvA always baffled me since I first found out that was true. It's not even phantom ASG, it's like, a paltry attempt at ASG.

(Never played a monk, never used UAC. No flames please, just my two cents.)

---

"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes

I figure, while I'm posting, I'd offer some other, very tentative, opinions and suggestions. In particular, although specific spells are mentioned, the MnM circle as a whole isn't discussed.

Telekinesis (1206): It's a Spell Aiming attack, not implemented, and occupying an important low-level spell slot. Axe this (e.g. slated to MjM) because monks will never ever be good at using it. A similar argument might be made for Fire Spirit, but that's a way to share a bolt spells among the non-wizard pures, even if Rangers, Paladins, and the squares also have it.

Shroud of Deception (1212): "The spell will not affect combat." Laaaaame. Why not have it change racial stat bonuses. It's already a cool, if unimplemented spell. Changing your stat bonuses sounds pretty sick to me. One needs to be careful not to step on Assume Aspect too much, but if 1212 is going to affect combat, this is the way to go I believe. Also, if it changes all the bonuses, it's not a straight add-on like 650, but there will be associated pentalties as well. And hey, why not let it affect encumbrance, too? Getting into areas for small-race only (hunting gremlins, whatever).

Mindwipe (1225): Not implemented, either.

Getting a circle improvement and review should be, in my mind, a reasonably high priority for monks.

---

"What Kaldonis does on his off time is totally Kaldonis's business, dude." ~Scribes

>>It's that Voln Masters need to. (. . . use sanctified weapons)

E.G.O. winner!

(Epic Gold Observation)

Doug

>>What? News to me.

Consider it not from the perspective of 'must have to play viably', but from the perspective of 'makes sense to extend the properties to this group of people to get more out of the sanctified items introduced into the game'. Certainly it's no worse than 'in the hands of a cleric' who has bless capabilities?

Doug