People are passionate about this game and especially passionate about monks. Many customers have waited literally YEARS for monks to come out so it's perfectly natural that there is so much debate about the effectiveness of the UCS monk.
It seems that the main two complaints about monks are CvA and speed to kill. The idea that the Monk should be either the best, or at least not the second best, UCS combatant has also been bounced around. There is a lot of merit to this argument since monks released with UCS.
One simple fix is to allow monks to run multiple monk only stances at the same time.
We have four martial stances specific to monks only. Two are proactive in that they are initiated by inputting a command (Krynch and Flurry) and two are reactive in that they work in response to an attack on the monk(Inner Harmony and Stance of the Mongoose). Please let the UCS monk run two stances (one from each category) at the same time. It won't make them overpowered at all, but will increase survivability and allow for better group hunting experiences.
This would encourage greater diversity among monks, improve the UCS monk to be equal to others in UCS combat and it'll make the class more FUN.
WOLFFC3
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 10:22 AM CDT
Yeah, being able to run two stances would be another way to help monks that wouldn't be overpowering. I'd throw all of the stances into the two categories though, especially Slippery Mind. Have them consist of offensive and defensive categories perhaps.
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 10:38 AM CDT
I like the two stances at once suggestion. Although, if I'm not mistaken, Inner Harmony can also be 'called upon' under duress. So I'm not sure how that model might work and keep that in play. I think it's one of the most awesome features a monk has, so I'd hate to see that curtailed.
The armor 'compare training points' and 'insufficient CvA' doesn't move me.
That's probably just me, though -- both camps are still shouting across a chasm without any recognition of each others' position. Wearisome to an old man.
Doug
The armor 'compare training points' and 'insufficient CvA' doesn't move me.
That's probably just me, though -- both camps are still shouting across a chasm without any recognition of each others' position. Wearisome to an old man.
Doug
WOLFFC3
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 02:30 PM CDT
>> -- both camps are still shouting across a chasm without any recognition of each others' position.
Doug, can you expound on this. I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that I do.
Doug, can you expound on this. I think I understand what you mean but I want to make sure that I do.
SPIFFY1
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 02:53 PM CDT
Getting three ranks of Innner Harmony is a waste. It can't be used while stunned, webbed, bound or any other status effect where you really want it removed. The only thing it's worth using for is immolate. In short, don't get three ranks.
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 04:44 PM CDT
I'll give it a shot.
The CvA (or lack of TD) for the monk should stand on its own merits. We get a lot of cross-chatter concerning the 'fairness' of training points, or the 'equality' of this benefit for this profession versus the penalty for that.
Monks lack TD (as I understand the core thrust), and so there's a hunt to get them more. Go for it! I think its correct to suggest they're lacking. The correlations, though, are slowing us down.
And, Mark - it does fire automagically, right? Not often, I get it, and I did ask for it to be useful even when 'disabled'. Perhaps that will happen.
Doug
The CvA (or lack of TD) for the monk should stand on its own merits. We get a lot of cross-chatter concerning the 'fairness' of training points, or the 'equality' of this benefit for this profession versus the penalty for that.
Monks lack TD (as I understand the core thrust), and so there's a hunt to get them more. Go for it! I think its correct to suggest they're lacking. The correlations, though, are slowing us down.
And, Mark - it does fire automagically, right? Not often, I get it, and I did ask for it to be useful even when 'disabled'. Perhaps that will happen.
Doug
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 05:49 PM CDT
Rank 3 Inner Harmony would be worth getting if it also reduced the timer from 30 seconds down to 15-20 seconds.
1202 just isn't well balanced at the moment. It costs too much for too little improvement via lores. I'm fine with leaving the CvA as it is, but as it stands now its just too expensive for what it achieves. Reduced lore training, reduced lore cost, increased innate monk bonus. Any of those would work, pick whichever is easiest to code.
SPYRIDONM1
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 08:40 PM CDT
>And, Mark - it does fire automagically, right? Not often, I get it, and I did ask for it to be useful even when 'disabled'. Perhaps that will happen. -- Doug
Yes, if it is the active martial stance. The benefits of any active martial stance are always on auto-pilot. The issue is the inability to select and activate iharmony while under the influence of many deleterious spell/status effects, including stunned; not whether it functions as described when active. If you have trained 3 ranks in Iharmony, but it is not active, these status effects will prevent an initial activation and the immediate removal of the status effect.
For example: Blind (311)
Cleric's face shimmers and vanishes, and, in its place, you see the craggy face of a dwarven man. An aura of reddish-golden light, much like the glow of a forge, surrounds his features. His brown gaze bores into you, and the image sears itself into your eyes before everything goes black.
You are dazed!
>You currently have the following active spells:
>Flurry of Blows .................... 3:12:05
>cman iharmony
You are still stunned.
>cman iharmony
You are still stunned.
With Iharmony active:
Cleric's face shimmers and vanishes, and, in its place, you see the craggy face of a dwarven man. An aura of reddish-golden light, much like the glow of a forge, surrounds his features. His brown gaze bores into you, and the image sears itself into your eyes before everything goes black.
You are dazed!
Your focus on maintaining inner harmony helps cleanse your mind, body, and soul...
You regain clarity and focus.
Mark
Yes, if it is the active martial stance. The benefits of any active martial stance are always on auto-pilot. The issue is the inability to select and activate iharmony while under the influence of many deleterious spell/status effects, including stunned; not whether it functions as described when active. If you have trained 3 ranks in Iharmony, but it is not active, these status effects will prevent an initial activation and the immediate removal of the status effect.
For example: Blind (311)
Cleric's face shimmers and vanishes, and, in its place, you see the craggy face of a dwarven man. An aura of reddish-golden light, much like the glow of a forge, surrounds his features. His brown gaze bores into you, and the image sears itself into your eyes before everything goes black.
You are dazed!
>You currently have the following active spells:
>Flurry of Blows .................... 3:12:05
>cman iharmony
You are still stunned.
>cman iharmony
You are still stunned.
With Iharmony active:
Cleric's face shimmers and vanishes, and, in its place, you see the craggy face of a dwarven man. An aura of reddish-golden light, much like the glow of a forge, surrounds his features. His brown gaze bores into you, and the image sears itself into your eyes before everything goes black.
You are dazed!
Your focus on maintaining inner harmony helps cleanse your mind, body, and soul...
You regain clarity and focus.
Mark
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 08:53 PM CDT
>>If you have trained 3 ranks in Iharmony, but it is not active, these status effects will prevent an initial activation and the immediate removal of the status effect.
Exactly. And if the proposal were to be accepted, this could be kept active.
Although - in truth, I'd rather just see this be able to be activated at any time, while keeping it limited. Monks should be able to walk away from a bout, if they should so desire.
Doug
Exactly. And if the proposal were to be accepted, this could be kept active.
Although - in truth, I'd rather just see this be able to be activated at any time, while keeping it limited. Monks should be able to walk away from a bout, if they should so desire.
Doug
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 10:25 PM CDT
>>1202 just isn't well balanced at the moment. It costs too much for too little improvement via lores.
Lore and level. At 0/12, lore's a might spendy -- levels come 'free'.
Several different ways to look at it. Not sure this is all correct -- corrections welcome.
No other profession can wear studded armor penalty free, ever, except the monk (and savant, mebbe?) (75 trains, earlier with lores).
Even warriors (I think?) can only reduce the penalty to a -5 and that at 170 ranks of armor training (478 physical training points, if my math is right).
A monk (maxed out?) can wear Ironskin at an AsG of 19 (5 bonus for level at 90 trains, and 8 bonus for lores at 180 ranks, woof!). That's penalty-free, dodge-happy half plate (and again, if my math is correct that's 3,108 mental training points).
That's a lot. But the warrior spends 1,414 physical points to get a chance at 7 enhancive armor training bonus points to bring half plate down to -15 Action. Still not as good (CvA discussion aside) as what the monk is able to achieve.
I'm also not sure how best to consider the monk (square) and the use of mental training points for armor benefit, vice the warrior (square) who has to use physical training points. Training points are meant to be precious and harder than we would like to come by. It makes our choices so much more. . . engaging. There should be some positive merit to using mental training points as a square for armor.
After all, if we converted the warrior's AsG 19 training points to mental (2 for 1), then the warrior is spending 2,818 mental points versus the 3,108 mental training points for the monk -- a difference of 290 points. And the warrior gets a CvA benefit, but the monk has all the cream in that comparison.
Conversely, the monk's physical armor costs (just flat training in armor), is 5x the warrior's. That earlier mentioned studded leather (with penalty minimized) would cost the monk 2,390 physical training points. When compared to 'free' (just get to level 75), that's a pretty big benefit, I'd say.
The real struggle here probably isn't with overall costs, though. The real struggle is in the cost of trying to 'match' a warrior's investment in armor in mid-game levels. That can't be done as the points shake out presently. But then. . . the warrior won't get dodge benefits like the monk, either. And the monk's investment in the lighter armors and the dodge ability is difficult for me to say it's 'even', but I'd play some long odds on it being 'fair'.
Probably just rambling here, but I'm trying to understand the perspective. I am interpreting that we want monks in chain mail at 30 trainings (that's 840 mental training points for 50 ranks by 30 trains). That's against the warrior at 30 trainings (and only 40 ranks armor use at 100 physical training points -- or 200 mental). That certainly looks wrong.
At least, until one considers that the warrior could never train away the penalties. Best effort equivalent for the warrior is 85 ranks armor at 30 trains (nearly tripled, for 380 physical training points, or . . . 760 mental training points). And that still leaves the warrior with a -10 Action to the monk's zero.
And all this against the only profession that could possibly even come close in the comparison. Even paladins don't have it this good (although they have spells / skills to help alleviate some of the penalties associated with heavy armor).
Just saying -- it's damn hard to figure 'must change because it's too expensive'. And of course, I may be looking at it wrong, or doing the math wrong. But if it is correct -- is there something else driving the desire for heavier monk armors that training doesn't account for?
Doug
Lore and level. At 0/12, lore's a might spendy -- levels come 'free'.
Several different ways to look at it. Not sure this is all correct -- corrections welcome.
No other profession can wear studded armor penalty free, ever, except the monk (and savant, mebbe?) (75 trains, earlier with lores).
Even warriors (I think?) can only reduce the penalty to a -5 and that at 170 ranks of armor training (478 physical training points, if my math is right).
A monk (maxed out?) can wear Ironskin at an AsG of 19 (5 bonus for level at 90 trains, and 8 bonus for lores at 180 ranks, woof!). That's penalty-free, dodge-happy half plate (and again, if my math is correct that's 3,108 mental training points).
That's a lot. But the warrior spends 1,414 physical points to get a chance at 7 enhancive armor training bonus points to bring half plate down to -15 Action. Still not as good (CvA discussion aside) as what the monk is able to achieve.
I'm also not sure how best to consider the monk (square) and the use of mental training points for armor benefit, vice the warrior (square) who has to use physical training points. Training points are meant to be precious and harder than we would like to come by. It makes our choices so much more. . . engaging. There should be some positive merit to using mental training points as a square for armor.
After all, if we converted the warrior's AsG 19 training points to mental (2 for 1), then the warrior is spending 2,818 mental points versus the 3,108 mental training points for the monk -- a difference of 290 points. And the warrior gets a CvA benefit, but the monk has all the cream in that comparison.
Conversely, the monk's physical armor costs (just flat training in armor), is 5x the warrior's. That earlier mentioned studded leather (with penalty minimized) would cost the monk 2,390 physical training points. When compared to 'free' (just get to level 75), that's a pretty big benefit, I'd say.
The real struggle here probably isn't with overall costs, though. The real struggle is in the cost of trying to 'match' a warrior's investment in armor in mid-game levels. That can't be done as the points shake out presently. But then. . . the warrior won't get dodge benefits like the monk, either. And the monk's investment in the lighter armors and the dodge ability is difficult for me to say it's 'even', but I'd play some long odds on it being 'fair'.
Probably just rambling here, but I'm trying to understand the perspective. I am interpreting that we want monks in chain mail at 30 trainings (that's 840 mental training points for 50 ranks by 30 trains). That's against the warrior at 30 trainings (and only 40 ranks armor use at 100 physical training points -- or 200 mental). That certainly looks wrong.
At least, until one considers that the warrior could never train away the penalties. Best effort equivalent for the warrior is 85 ranks armor at 30 trains (nearly tripled, for 380 physical training points, or . . . 760 mental training points). And that still leaves the warrior with a -10 Action to the monk's zero.
And all this against the only profession that could possibly even come close in the comparison. Even paladins don't have it this good (although they have spells / skills to help alleviate some of the penalties associated with heavy armor).
Just saying -- it's damn hard to figure 'must change because it's too expensive'. And of course, I may be looking at it wrong, or doing the math wrong. But if it is correct -- is there something else driving the desire for heavier monk armors that training doesn't account for?
Doug
CANDIDE
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 11:09 PM CDT
Your math is getting all screwy because Monks can only single in mental lores. So at best they can have 30 ranks of Transformation at 28. The best they can do is with enhancives +4 Transformation lore (105 total ranks) ASG 17 and +39 (140 total ranks) Transformation lore for ASG 18.
GBB
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/24/2013 11:45 PM CDT
Thank you for the correction, Galen.
As I was typing, I was trying to remember why we said hauberk and metal breastplate with enhancives. And I didn't see the single training, despite having looked twice at the costs.
That does make for some screwy math.
At best, chain for the monk occurs at 50 trainings and 30 lore, then, against the warriors 30 trainings and 85 ranks (unlikely, but possible).
Sadly, while the comparison shows a 20 level delay to the most aggressive warrior training, it means the monk pays 360 mental training points for the warriors 380 physical training points, and the monk still retains the advantage of zero penalties outside of the CvA discussion.
Or stretching the warrior's training out to 50 trainings, and 85 ranks, the cost for the warrior comes down to 240 physical training points to the monk's 360 mental training points and again the same penalties discussion applies.
This is, of course, all under the reducing the penalty as much as possible premise. And that may not be how we are / should be looking at it.
Again, appreciate the reminder on the times per level for the lores.
Doug
As I was typing, I was trying to remember why we said hauberk and metal breastplate with enhancives. And I didn't see the single training, despite having looked twice at the costs.
That does make for some screwy math.
At best, chain for the monk occurs at 50 trainings and 30 lore, then, against the warriors 30 trainings and 85 ranks (unlikely, but possible).
Sadly, while the comparison shows a 20 level delay to the most aggressive warrior training, it means the monk pays 360 mental training points for the warriors 380 physical training points, and the monk still retains the advantage of zero penalties outside of the CvA discussion.
Or stretching the warrior's training out to 50 trainings, and 85 ranks, the cost for the warrior comes down to 240 physical training points to the monk's 360 mental training points and again the same penalties discussion applies.
This is, of course, all under the reducing the penalty as much as possible premise. And that may not be how we are / should be looking at it.
Again, appreciate the reminder on the times per level for the lores.
Doug
ROLFARD
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/25/2013 09:31 AM CDT
I think the possibility of having your armor dispelled is quite a disadvantage. Hunting bandits or capped areas, the opportunity to suddenly go from plate/chain/etc to robes is not a small chance.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/25/2013 07:28 PM CDT
>(CvA discussion aside)
No.
You can't just set the CvA discussion aside and then compare a monk's training costs to a warrior's triple training to reduce maneuver penalty. If you set the CvA penalty aside then you have to set the maneuver penalty aside as well.
The correct comparison then is the level 50 monk spending 360 mtp's on 30 Lore ranks for AsG 13 with a CvA of 15, but also no spell hinderance or maneuver penalty vs a level 50 warrior spending 80 ptp's on 40 ranks of Armor Use for AsG 13 with a CvA of -6, but with spell hinderance (a non issue for most level 50 warriors) and normal maneuver penalty.
360 mtp's vs 80 ptp's.
The monk's training in the example is something that a monk might choose to do in game at level 50, but most won't because its not really worth the investment in tp's. And that's sad.
A warrior triple training to minimize chain mail's maneuver penalty at level 50 just does not happen. The level 30 warrior would be in MPB with 80 ranks. A level 50 warrior would be in full plate with 140 ranks. THEN they'd worry about minimizing maneuver penalty.
I won't even mention that monks can't train down the CvA penalty from 1202. :)
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/26/2013 09:08 AM CDT
>>You can't just set the CvA discussion aside and then compare a monk's training costs to a warrior's triple training to reduce maneuver penalty. If you set the CvA penalty aside then you have to set the maneuver penalty aside as well.
Hmm. . . I may have been a little too liberal in my interpretation of your words, Aluvius. But, you said in post 584:
>> I'm fine with leaving the CvA as it is, but as it stands now its just too expensive for what it achieves.
So, I set CvA aside and compared everything but that.
I'll be happy to get your feedback that this isn't the path you wanted to walk, however yes -- CvA discussion aside, the benefits are pretty much as I posted. Um, the second time, after some basic lore training corrections.
But - I'll run with yours, too.
>>The correct comparison then is the level 50 monk spending 360 mtp's on 30 Lore ranks for AsG 13 with a CvA of 15, but also no spell hinderance or maneuver penalty vs a level 50 warrior spending 80 ptp's on 40 ranks of Armor Use for AsG 13 with a CvA of -6, but with spell hinderance (a non issue for most level 50 warriors) and normal maneuver penalty
Let's work with this, instead, then. 360 MTP versus 80 PTP. CvA of 15 versus CvA of -6. 0 MAN Penalty versus -13 MAN Penalty. I'd suggest there may be other things to factor for, but let's just pause here for a moment.
360 MTP for a square, versus 80 PTP for a square. How do we analyze this?
Two key points you brought out, though, that simply scream past the numbers:
>>but most won't because its not really worth the investment in tp's. And that's sad.
>>I won't even mention that monks can't train down the CvA penalty from 1202. :)
I'm not sure I agree with the first of those two -- after all, people would do what gives them mechanical advantage. We've seen it time and again. If being in chain at 50 is demonstrated to be a mechanical advantage, you can bet the sheep will follow.
But that last point -- gold. I don't know why we keep flipping back and forth on this, but I'm flexible.
How do we realize this, and at what threshold does it become 'reasonably hard', yet 'suitably beneficial'?
And yes -- to all you dispell adherents out there. Give it a try. :)
Doug
Hmm. . . I may have been a little too liberal in my interpretation of your words, Aluvius. But, you said in post 584:
>> I'm fine with leaving the CvA as it is, but as it stands now its just too expensive for what it achieves.
So, I set CvA aside and compared everything but that.
I'll be happy to get your feedback that this isn't the path you wanted to walk, however yes -- CvA discussion aside, the benefits are pretty much as I posted. Um, the second time, after some basic lore training corrections.
But - I'll run with yours, too.
>>The correct comparison then is the level 50 monk spending 360 mtp's on 30 Lore ranks for AsG 13 with a CvA of 15, but also no spell hinderance or maneuver penalty vs a level 50 warrior spending 80 ptp's on 40 ranks of Armor Use for AsG 13 with a CvA of -6, but with spell hinderance (a non issue for most level 50 warriors) and normal maneuver penalty
Let's work with this, instead, then. 360 MTP versus 80 PTP. CvA of 15 versus CvA of -6. 0 MAN Penalty versus -13 MAN Penalty. I'd suggest there may be other things to factor for, but let's just pause here for a moment.
360 MTP for a square, versus 80 PTP for a square. How do we analyze this?
Two key points you brought out, though, that simply scream past the numbers:
>>but most won't because its not really worth the investment in tp's. And that's sad.
>>I won't even mention that monks can't train down the CvA penalty from 1202. :)
I'm not sure I agree with the first of those two -- after all, people would do what gives them mechanical advantage. We've seen it time and again. If being in chain at 50 is demonstrated to be a mechanical advantage, you can bet the sheep will follow.
But that last point -- gold. I don't know why we keep flipping back and forth on this, but I'm flexible.
How do we realize this, and at what threshold does it become 'reasonably hard', yet 'suitably beneficial'?
And yes -- to all you dispell adherents out there. Give it a try. :)
Doug
RATHBONER
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/26/2013 11:45 AM CDT
>360 MTP for a square, versus 80 PTP for a square. How do we analyze this?
Not being hit in the first place trumps wearing armor. How many warriors can find the points to train 3x dodge out of the mangler? Or 0.4x spells?
My warrior gets nicked more in a typical bandit ambush than my monk does in an entire cull. Until they dispel a couple of his DS spells, Ironskin is just dispel fodder against bandits. Normally the only damage he takes on a bandit cull is from manoevers and traps. Disabled and RT locked and they still don't touch him with weapon swings unless they get lucky with dispels too. All that spell DS and 3x dodge adds up. They have almost identical DS, but the warrior is about 20 levels higher.
Monks have better defense than warriors in every single category: melee, bolt, manoever, warding. They aren't hard done by in the slightest.
Not being hit in the first place trumps wearing armor. How many warriors can find the points to train 3x dodge out of the mangler? Or 0.4x spells?
My warrior gets nicked more in a typical bandit ambush than my monk does in an entire cull. Until they dispel a couple of his DS spells, Ironskin is just dispel fodder against bandits. Normally the only damage he takes on a bandit cull is from manoevers and traps. Disabled and RT locked and they still don't touch him with weapon swings unless they get lucky with dispels too. All that spell DS and 3x dodge adds up. They have almost identical DS, but the warrior is about 20 levels higher.
Monks have better defense than warriors in every single category: melee, bolt, manoever, warding. They aren't hard done by in the slightest.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/26/2013 01:27 PM CDT
>>1202 just isn't well balanced at the moment. It costs too much for too little improvement via lores. I'm fine with leaving the CvA as it is, but as it stands now its just too expensive for what it achieves. Reduced lore training, reduced lore cost, increased innate monk bonus. Any of those would work, pick whichever is easiest to code.
Its possible my intent was unclear. So to restate my words, I meant that the lack of CvA increase isn't the only problem with 1202. It also costs too much in training points for what it achieves for monks, which is the equivalent of armor training. So even if CvA isn't addressed it still needs a reduction in training costs. There are several ways it can be achieved.
Personally I think the CvA deficit would be better addressed via cman's or some other mechanism that requires investment by monks (ironically, sort of like how other classes can train down maneuver penalties with armor use heh). Its the one achilles heel of monks, although in practice at higher levels its more like a glass chin. We should be weak somewhere, but there should be a bit of a way to close the gap between robe and full plate CvA.
>I'm not sure I agree with the first of those two -- after all, people would do what gives them mechanical advantage. We've seen it time and again. If being in chain at 50 is demonstrated to be a mechanical advantage, you can bet the sheep will follow.
As to your point, what I described is the mechanically advantageous path for monks currently. Both PC number mavens and main forum roleplayers like Rathboner agree that training lores for 1202 is not worth it.
If you're suggesting that there is mechanical advantage for a level 50 warrior to be in chain and training off maneuver penalty instead of using the ranks to wear plate, there currently is not.
Why conflate a theoretical warrior training situation with current in game monk training? That's what I don't get.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/26/2013 01:32 PM CDT
>Monks have better defense than warriors in every single category: melee, bolt, manoever, warding. They aren't hard done by in the slightest.
Warding? Tell us how you make up the 36 point CvA deficit between robes and full plate and this entire discussion could be ended right now.
GS4-MARSTREFORN
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/26/2013 02:34 PM CDT
Learn (120) Lesser Shroud and (1208) Mindward for extra TD.
Also, being able to self-cast 101 and 107 are nothing to scoff at when you get into certain hunting areas. Sure, a warrior can learn other magical skills to avoid certain negative effects but they are still spending a lot of training points for that purpose.
Spell Research for a monk: 38 mental points
Spell Research for a warrior: 120 mental points
5 ranks in Perfect Self yields +10 to all stats, giving an additional bonus to all forms of TD among a multitude of other benefits. The prerequisite skills also have very good synergy. 3 ranks in Surge of Strength + 3 ranks in Burst of Swiftness both grant a bonus to a monk's unarmed combat skill and the duration of one expires as soon as the other one's cooldown time (at 3 ranks in each). This means that you can keep one up at all times if you have enough stamina recovery. It really is like clockwork.
It could also be mentioned that, at level 75, monks basically get the equivalent of studded leather armor via (1202) Iron Skin with zero training beyond learning the spell. For 180 mental points you can have chain mail. Up to you if you think it's worth the trade-off, or if the mental points would be better used to increase other skills.
-Marstreforn-
Icemule Trace Guru
Halfling Guru
Also, being able to self-cast 101 and 107 are nothing to scoff at when you get into certain hunting areas. Sure, a warrior can learn other magical skills to avoid certain negative effects but they are still spending a lot of training points for that purpose.
Spell Research for a monk: 38 mental points
Spell Research for a warrior: 120 mental points
5 ranks in Perfect Self yields +10 to all stats, giving an additional bonus to all forms of TD among a multitude of other benefits. The prerequisite skills also have very good synergy. 3 ranks in Surge of Strength + 3 ranks in Burst of Swiftness both grant a bonus to a monk's unarmed combat skill and the duration of one expires as soon as the other one's cooldown time (at 3 ranks in each). This means that you can keep one up at all times if you have enough stamina recovery. It really is like clockwork.
It could also be mentioned that, at level 75, monks basically get the equivalent of studded leather armor via (1202) Iron Skin with zero training beyond learning the spell. For 180 mental points you can have chain mail. Up to you if you think it's worth the trade-off, or if the mental points would be better used to increase other skills.
-Marstreforn-
Icemule Trace Guru
Halfling Guru
SPIFFY1
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/26/2013 05:31 PM CDT
101, 107, and 1208 are all available via scrolls or other players. 120 isn't, but it's only 20 TD and comes at a significant TP investment. At level 60 I only have 107 and 1220. Instead of spending the ridiculous amount of TPs for transformation lore AND the 100's I spent 500 physical points to get into chain mail (actually wearing augmented chain undertrained). Getting 120 would have cost me almost as many MTPs and to get into chain equivalent I'd have to spend another 360 MTPs (augmented chain isn't even possible with 1202 at level 60). By then I'd be converting PTPs to MTPs so it would be even more.
1202 is useless... and I use that word only because I'd be warned for saying what I really think about it.
1202 is useless... and I use that word only because I'd be warned for saying what I really think about it.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/26/2013 06:06 PM CDT
If I've made any math/game knowledge mistakes please let me know!
36 points of CvA apply to any type of warding spell, it doesn't diminish in effectiveness because its of a different sphere. It can't ever be dispelled. It can be had by a level 50 warrior triple training armor for a cost of 14 ptp's per level (actually by level 46 I think?).
120 (120 learned): 20 spirit td, 12 sorc td, 10 elemental td
1208 (1220 learned): 13 spirit td, 13, sorc td, 13 elemental td
Perfect Self Rank 5: 5 spirit td, 5 sorc td, 5 elemental td
Level 46 warrior cost for full plate: 644 physical points
Level 80 monk cost for 1220/120 (assuming .5x): 1520 mental points
Rank 5 Perfect Self: 30 CM points (150 physical points, 90 mental points)
I think we can assume that everyone has reasonable access to 101 and 107 anywhere, imbeddables for those spells are easy to make and widespread. The same for elementals. A case has already been made in this folder for 120 imbeddables, but I think those aren't as readily available/used so we'll call that point moot although a warrior could use one if he wanted to invest the points.
So in the best case for spirit td, a monk gains 38 td (level 80) vs the 36 CvA (level 46). That's a long slog and a large investment in tp's for a 2 point gain, but its doable. The hard part will be investing all of the tp's for the mostly useless (to a monk) 100's circle from 107 to 120. From 46 to 80 the monk will be at a 18 td to 36 CvA disadvantage.
Not so good for sorc td, a monk gains 30 td vs 36 CvA. From 46 to 80 the monk will be at a 18 td to 36 CvA disadvantage.
Predictably the worst is elemental td, the monk gains 28 elemental td vs 36 CvA. From 46 to 80 the monk will be at a 18 td to 36 CvA disadvantage.
Of course this doesn't include all of the levels below 46 where the monk will be at an ever increasing td to CvA disadvantage as the warrior works up the armor classes and monk spell td stays relatively static. I suppose a monk could go up to 1208 and then swap to 120 by 56, though it would drop the benefits of 1208 down to 10 td per off sphere. I don't think many will do that.
In the end its actually not that bad for monks once they get 120 although dispels will definitely hurt.
As for my future plans with 1202 its hard to say. My monk is only 28 so I have to rely on the reports of higher level monks. Rathboner in his 50's I think is using 1202 but not putting any points into lore since he doesn't seem to get hit and/or take much damage when he does. The capped monks are mostly on the PC boards and seem to be leaning toward dropping 1202 and training up Armor Use for various chain class asg's or MBP due to CvA issues from casters.
Believe it or not I think we're on the same wavelength here Marstreforn, I've stated repeatedly that I love the monk class overall and that I don't think the lack of 1202 CvA is inappropriate. I'm not exactly the best advocate to reply to you but the above analysis does show some of the rough spots with the spell.
I do think some of the training costs are a bit high though. Especially in light of the MM penalty to armor being adjusted down by 75% and the punch/kick/grapple masteries being opened up to rogues/warriors. Monks were knocked from the top tier of UAC users to the middle/bottom of the pack mainly due to that move. 1202 suddenly lost a big chunk of its positive which naturally brought its negatives more to the fore.
Its a mystery to me why monks can't get any slack but every other UAC using class is able to complain and get adjustments. Well okay, its not a mystery exactly, there are about 10x more other UAC using classes than there are monks. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. :)
RATHBONER
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/27/2013 12:23 PM CDT
I think you are making assumptions that are slanted in favor of making warriors look good compared to monks. However its ballpark. I'd include neither spell tanking for the warrior, not Perfect Self for the monk as design.
Tanking is an option which the warrior will be able to use with more effect than the monk though just how much depends on the situation. Rift, OTF, warcamp all a bit different and exploitable in different ways to different effects by monk and warrior. However, where tanking is fully exploitable, the warrior will always come out ahead.
The sort of build that 1x lore works for is the first Plat monk to 40. Almost no spells, THW and robes. Just how high a monk with that build can get, I don't know, but it clearly worked to level 40.
If you are going to get spells, then there is a trade off between having the spells earlier and having the lore. 5 lore at 15 will delay you for a level or 2 in getting to 1216 and 1220, but those are the levels where I was liable to get hit, and it may be worth having scale rather than leather at that point. I don't believe that any more lore at 15 or 30 for extra scale coverage is worth delaying 1220 for. I actually went with 6 lore for the extra Dragonclaw.
By the time I had 1220, I'd got enough levels worth of 3x dodge, that my DS was stratospheric. Once I put some emphasis on MOC, it stayed stratospheric even in a swarm. If you are making do with 2x dodge, and little to no MOC, maybe you do get nicked heavily enough to want better 1202 and need to put the points you are shaving off dodge and MOC into lore instead, but I reckon you can train enough DS skills that armor becomes practically irrelevant well before level 50.
Back at level 25, I thought that when I eventually got spare points, they'd go into pushing lore, but by the time I had the points for lore, I also had the DS not to need armor. If I decided that I really, really wanted 120 for the TD as soon as possible, the 6 ranks lore I have would be first in line for the chop. I don't think I've been bled out since I got 1220. Crit kills from manoevers or spells, (usually manoevers) or I get to turn the tables even if I have to wait out a couple minutes of disabling before I actually get an action.
Tanking is an option which the warrior will be able to use with more effect than the monk though just how much depends on the situation. Rift, OTF, warcamp all a bit different and exploitable in different ways to different effects by monk and warrior. However, where tanking is fully exploitable, the warrior will always come out ahead.
The sort of build that 1x lore works for is the first Plat monk to 40. Almost no spells, THW and robes. Just how high a monk with that build can get, I don't know, but it clearly worked to level 40.
If you are going to get spells, then there is a trade off between having the spells earlier and having the lore. 5 lore at 15 will delay you for a level or 2 in getting to 1216 and 1220, but those are the levels where I was liable to get hit, and it may be worth having scale rather than leather at that point. I don't believe that any more lore at 15 or 30 for extra scale coverage is worth delaying 1220 for. I actually went with 6 lore for the extra Dragonclaw.
By the time I had 1220, I'd got enough levels worth of 3x dodge, that my DS was stratospheric. Once I put some emphasis on MOC, it stayed stratospheric even in a swarm. If you are making do with 2x dodge, and little to no MOC, maybe you do get nicked heavily enough to want better 1202 and need to put the points you are shaving off dodge and MOC into lore instead, but I reckon you can train enough DS skills that armor becomes practically irrelevant well before level 50.
Back at level 25, I thought that when I eventually got spare points, they'd go into pushing lore, but by the time I had the points for lore, I also had the DS not to need armor. If I decided that I really, really wanted 120 for the TD as soon as possible, the 6 ranks lore I have would be first in line for the chop. I don't think I've been bled out since I got 1220. Crit kills from manoevers or spells, (usually manoevers) or I get to turn the tables even if I have to wait out a couple minutes of disabling before I actually get an action.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/27/2013 04:38 PM CDT
I'm not sure if that was directed at me or not, but if so it seems that we have the same assumptions as far as I can tell? If you want to use 1202 then you need to charge up to 1220/120 ASAP because we all know the real advantage of armor for squares lies in its CvA. There's no way to do this and train in mental lores without gimping your other essential combat training.
As for the warrior training, 3x armor use up to 140 ranks for full plate is standard.
Beelining for 120/1220 for monks is not. I've had several monks in this very forum argue against it lol. Personally I agree with you and I think they're in for a rude awakening.
WOLFFC3
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/27/2013 11:51 PM CDT
How do you define ASAP in this case? A monk can easily hit 1220 by lvl 20 without sacrificing the ability to hunt well. By lvl 60-75 the monk can get to 120. You could even get to 40 spells in your early 40's just hunting the glacier, storm giants, Krolvin etc... That's a more aggressive spell training path than most will take but you can do it and not suffer.
The test of time will be when we get more capped monks, and although I know the capped players who converted understand the class well, I think the ultimate test will be to see how monks who went from lvl 0-100 feel about capped hunting. The big question I have is when/if my monk caps, is he going to have to fixskills into heavy armor because of the CvA issue. Like Aluvius said; it does sound on PC like this is the way to survive. I'll be a real shame if that's the case.
We're not going to get CvA fixed, we're not going to get mstrike and we're not going to get a mechanic fix to jab tier ups for monk. We can ask for the ability to run two stances at a time. If we want a change to improve the class in the near future, this is it.
I don't think that constantly talking about CvA or comparing monks to warrior, ranger, rogues and bard who UCS is going to get us anywhere.
The test of time will be when we get more capped monks, and although I know the capped players who converted understand the class well, I think the ultimate test will be to see how monks who went from lvl 0-100 feel about capped hunting. The big question I have is when/if my monk caps, is he going to have to fixskills into heavy armor because of the CvA issue. Like Aluvius said; it does sound on PC like this is the way to survive. I'll be a real shame if that's the case.
We're not going to get CvA fixed, we're not going to get mstrike and we're not going to get a mechanic fix to jab tier ups for monk. We can ask for the ability to run two stances at a time. If we want a change to improve the class in the near future, this is it.
I don't think that constantly talking about CvA or comparing monks to warrior, ranger, rogues and bard who UCS is going to get us anywhere.
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 09:22 AM CDT
What's killing me is the selective way we'll go about putting together analysis. We won't be consistent at all. Establish a baseline and adjust it. Don't just keep throwing in new stuff.
That said. . .
So maybe switch 1214 and 1220 around, to give a bit more room?
Alternatively, 1208 should give +1 TD spiritual bonus in addition to existing mental bonus.
Elemental bonus isn't really necessary for one simple reason - 9 times out of 10 the wizard's gonna bolt, and the monk has more than ample tools to deal with that. And that 10th time, if you're not prepared as a monk, you're dead.
Can't be equivalently good at warding all things, now. . .
And if that wasn't funny, check this out -- warriors complain about lack of TD. Monks complain about being behind in CvA. SO 1208 improved to close that gap. Then, monks and warriors can complain about lack of TD?
(Oh, rogues, too.)
And it's like what. . . a delta of 20?
Doug
That said. . .
So maybe switch 1214 and 1220 around, to give a bit more room?
Alternatively, 1208 should give +1 TD spiritual bonus in addition to existing mental bonus.
Elemental bonus isn't really necessary for one simple reason - 9 times out of 10 the wizard's gonna bolt, and the monk has more than ample tools to deal with that. And that 10th time, if you're not prepared as a monk, you're dead.
Can't be equivalently good at warding all things, now. . .
And if that wasn't funny, check this out -- warriors complain about lack of TD. Monks complain about being behind in CvA. SO 1208 improved to close that gap. Then, monks and warriors can complain about lack of TD?
(Oh, rogues, too.)
And it's like what. . . a delta of 20?
Doug
RATHBONER
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 09:39 AM CDT
>As for the warrior training, 3x armor use up to 140 ranks for full plate is standard.
Its common, but its not design and its not necessary. I have gone to 150 ranks at 2x, still wear MBP, use little magic outside what I loot off critters and even have crummy TD stats. For cap yes, but I don't believe its even worth the action penalty, let alone the training points, to wear full plate in the 40s. 80 ranks for MBP at 3x gives a return, but full plate at 3x doesn't.
>The test of time will be when we get more capped monks, and although I know the capped players who converted understand the class well, I think the ultimate test will be to see how monks who went from lvl 0-100 feel about capped hunting. The big question I have is when/if my monk caps, is he going to have to fixskills into heavy armor because of the CvA issue. Like Aluvius said; it does sound on PC like this is the way to survive. I'll be a real shame if that's the case.
There's no way metal is necessary this side of 80. Since some of the converts are saying it is necessary in the 60s, I am sceptical of the ones that are saying its necessary at cap too. So far its a case of, sometimes I mess up and critter nails me with a manoever and I die. And sometimes I mess up and a critter nails me with a warding spell and I don't die. I have taken annoying quantities of damage, and had to sit around for ages watching critters failing miserably to finish me off while disabled by warding spells, but they lead to less of my fatalities than manoevers do by a wide margin. Its a weakness, but one that is manageable.
Has anyone capped a Shattered monk 0-100 yet? Its a whole different game when relying on brute speed and ignorance rather than intelligent tactics. I can well believe its difficult to manage warding risk with the sort of tactically dumb things the Lich movement script likes to do.
Its common, but its not design and its not necessary. I have gone to 150 ranks at 2x, still wear MBP, use little magic outside what I loot off critters and even have crummy TD stats. For cap yes, but I don't believe its even worth the action penalty, let alone the training points, to wear full plate in the 40s. 80 ranks for MBP at 3x gives a return, but full plate at 3x doesn't.
>The test of time will be when we get more capped monks, and although I know the capped players who converted understand the class well, I think the ultimate test will be to see how monks who went from lvl 0-100 feel about capped hunting. The big question I have is when/if my monk caps, is he going to have to fixskills into heavy armor because of the CvA issue. Like Aluvius said; it does sound on PC like this is the way to survive. I'll be a real shame if that's the case.
There's no way metal is necessary this side of 80. Since some of the converts are saying it is necessary in the 60s, I am sceptical of the ones that are saying its necessary at cap too. So far its a case of, sometimes I mess up and critter nails me with a manoever and I die. And sometimes I mess up and a critter nails me with a warding spell and I don't die. I have taken annoying quantities of damage, and had to sit around for ages watching critters failing miserably to finish me off while disabled by warding spells, but they lead to less of my fatalities than manoevers do by a wide margin. Its a weakness, but one that is manageable.
Has anyone capped a Shattered monk 0-100 yet? Its a whole different game when relying on brute speed and ignorance rather than intelligent tactics. I can well believe its difficult to manage warding risk with the sort of tactically dumb things the Lich movement script likes to do.
ISMANO
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 09:45 AM CDT
Out of curiousity, why are monks always being compared to warriors?
Wouldn't rogues be more appropriate, considering the profession is more likely to have magic? Or is this based on warriors and monks fighting in the open whereas the rogue would be in hiding?
-farmer
Wouldn't rogues be more appropriate, considering the profession is more likely to have magic? Or is this based on warriors and monks fighting in the open whereas the rogue would be in hiding?
-farmer
RATHBONER
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 10:26 AM CDT
>And it's like what. . . a delta of 20?
A delta of 20 on a warding roll is a lot to a square. Just as pures will spend an immense effort on an extra 20 CS, those on the receiving end will put an immense effort into an extra 20 TD.
>Elemental bonus isn't really necessary for one simple reason - 9 times out of 10 the wizard's gonna bolt, and the monk has more than ample tools to deal with that. And that 10th time, if you're not prepared as a monk, you're dead.
The dangerous elemental warding spells are ones wizards sneer at: 409 and 415. Its not the wizard with the 900s that you really have to have elemental TD for, its the warfarer with the 400s.
>And if that wasn't funny, check this out -- warriors complain about lack of TD. Monks complain about being behind in CvA. SO 1208 improved to close that gap. Then, monks and warriors can complain about lack of TD?
Its actually not much of a gap. Not even that 20 except under Rift conditions. If there's reason to improve monks or warriors both ought to get similar boosts, but I don't think there's reason to improve either and I prefer any boosts to be via additional offensive options that allow an intelligent player to tactically neutralise a caster, rather than passive defensive boosts to help dumb scripts survive longer.
A delta of 20 on a warding roll is a lot to a square. Just as pures will spend an immense effort on an extra 20 CS, those on the receiving end will put an immense effort into an extra 20 TD.
>Elemental bonus isn't really necessary for one simple reason - 9 times out of 10 the wizard's gonna bolt, and the monk has more than ample tools to deal with that. And that 10th time, if you're not prepared as a monk, you're dead.
The dangerous elemental warding spells are ones wizards sneer at: 409 and 415. Its not the wizard with the 900s that you really have to have elemental TD for, its the warfarer with the 400s.
>And if that wasn't funny, check this out -- warriors complain about lack of TD. Monks complain about being behind in CvA. SO 1208 improved to close that gap. Then, monks and warriors can complain about lack of TD?
Its actually not much of a gap. Not even that 20 except under Rift conditions. If there's reason to improve monks or warriors both ought to get similar boosts, but I don't think there's reason to improve either and I prefer any boosts to be via additional offensive options that allow an intelligent player to tactically neutralise a caster, rather than passive defensive boosts to help dumb scripts survive longer.
TROUBLE13
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 12:05 PM CDT
Weird, as a warrior I rarely complained about CS spells as a whole. And from about 50 onward I learned to hunt without spells, doesn't mean I never used them just that when they weren't available I could do just fine without them. Of course from about 96 until now I don't hunt without spells unless it is bandits, they just make life so much easier.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 12:41 PM CDT
>Out of curiousity, why are monks always being compared to warriors?
>Wouldn't rogues be more appropriate, considering the profession is more likely to have magic? Or is this based on warriors and monks fighting in the open whereas the rogue would be in hiding?
Yeah, I do because its open UAC vs open UAC. Hiding gives you defensive benefits and increased chances to auto tier on an ambush.
>Weird, as a warrior I rarely complained about CS spells as a whole. And from about 50 onward I learned to hunt without spells, doesn't mean I never used them just that when they weren't available I could do just fine without them. Of course from about 96 until now I don't hunt without spells unless it is bandits, they just make life so much easier.
What armor were you in at 50? Even asg 13 chain mail gives you a +21 CvA advantage over a monk using 1202.
I've contemplated hunting my monk self spelled but it seems like it would be tough. He knows 1220 at 28, but I'd like him to know at least 103 and maybe 107 before I cut him loose. I'd also have a tough time weaning him from the 509/disk teat. :)
TROUBLE13
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 01:00 PM CDT
I was wearing hauberk then. But my tactic for dealing with spells was just to not let things have a chance to cast them at me. I also had extremely poor stats, so if you actually have yours planned for cap thats basically your CvA difference.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 01:20 PM CDT
>We're not going to get CvA fixed, we're not going to get mstrike and we're not going to get a mechanic fix to jab tier ups for monk. We can ask for the ability to run two stances at a time. If we want a change to improve the class in the near future, this is it.
>I don't think that constantly talking about CvA or comparing monks to warrior, ranger, rogues and bard who UCS is going to get us anywhere.
Actually you're more optimistic than I. We've spent months excitedly posting/debating reasonable tweaks to UAC/monks. Although there's no reason to brag, look at other classes that have spent years doing the same. We're on Mao's Long March, not a blitzkrieg. :)
The reason I compare monks to other classes is because that's just basic debate strategy, compare and contrast. It doesn't make sense to post numbers in a vaccum.
ROLFARD
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 02:21 PM CDT
Whats the cost for a monk to ;
1) train 70 ranks of lore at level 70 for iron skin
2) train 80 ranks of armor at level 80 for hauberk
3) 2x hide at level 70 for ambush
No reason all monks have to fit into the iron skin niche, my monk prefers the square path unlike what the norm appears to be.
RATHBONER
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 03:04 PM CDT
>I've contemplated hunting my monk self spelled but it seems like it would be tough. He knows 1220 at 28, but I'd like him to know at least 103 and maybe 107 before I cut him loose. I'd also have a tough time weaning him from the 509/disk teat. :)
Just restrict yourself to the easier critters/smaller swarms when you don't have spells. I would have been rather more selective around ice trolls and cold guardians and if I was after undead its zombies not farmhands and elder trees if I didnt have elementals at 28. Tundra giants and manticores still fall down and die, but no spells might mean spending time doing it slowly in advanced stance with 102 up if a couple of manticores are running in and out. And thats without even 1216 yet. I would have been on 102/1214 at 28 I think. I could have taken the trench, but I hadn't realised what the right tactic was for another level or two and was avoiding it with or without spells. Wolverine, caribou and the like all fall down and die. Again perhaps a bit more slowly without elementals and using advanced stance and 102 if there are several wolverines running around fast.
>Weird, as a warrior I rarely complained about CS spells as a whole. And from about 50 onward I learned to hunt without spells, doesn't mean I never used them just that when they weren't available I could do just fine without them. Of course from about 96 until now I don't hunt without spells unless it is bandits, they just make life so much easier.
I find the tactics very similar. Feint to establish control as a warrior. 1207 as a monk. Make the critter waste an action standing up, or put it in RT immediately. Then critters without legs don't stand up and those without right arms don't cast. Those without heads don't do either, but taking the head off straight away has a fairly high failure rate and the safe option is usually a limb first.
Just restrict yourself to the easier critters/smaller swarms when you don't have spells. I would have been rather more selective around ice trolls and cold guardians and if I was after undead its zombies not farmhands and elder trees if I didnt have elementals at 28. Tundra giants and manticores still fall down and die, but no spells might mean spending time doing it slowly in advanced stance with 102 up if a couple of manticores are running in and out. And thats without even 1216 yet. I would have been on 102/1214 at 28 I think. I could have taken the trench, but I hadn't realised what the right tactic was for another level or two and was avoiding it with or without spells. Wolverine, caribou and the like all fall down and die. Again perhaps a bit more slowly without elementals and using advanced stance and 102 if there are several wolverines running around fast.
>Weird, as a warrior I rarely complained about CS spells as a whole. And from about 50 onward I learned to hunt without spells, doesn't mean I never used them just that when they weren't available I could do just fine without them. Of course from about 96 until now I don't hunt without spells unless it is bandits, they just make life so much easier.
I find the tactics very similar. Feint to establish control as a warrior. 1207 as a monk. Make the critter waste an action standing up, or put it in RT immediately. Then critters without legs don't stand up and those without right arms don't cast. Those without heads don't do either, but taking the head off straight away has a fairly high failure rate and the safe option is usually a limb first.
RAKKASH
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/28/2013 03:22 PM CDT
>Has anyone capped a Shattered monk 0-100 yet? Its a whole different game when relying on brute speed and ignorance rather than intelligent tactics. I can well believe its difficult to manage warding risk with the sort of tactically dumb things the Lich movement script likes to do.
I believe mine is the highest so far at 89. I put him on the shelf a little while back for a couple of reasons. Having long favored pures, the concept of running when there are two or more critters in the room is not one I'm very fond of. Plus, at higher levels, it can get really difficult to isolate targets and finish a hunt in a decent time-frame. Couple that with the poor multi-target management in a script like Bigshot and the monk doesn't stand a chance at this level. Letting something in the Bowels get a cast off is basically a death sentence and I'm sure that will carry through the the Rift, OTF, and Nelemar as well.
For the most part, I don't expect to have much issue managing things after I get my own script running. If I run into a group of casters or they somehow pile up on me while I'm doing something else, I'm sure there will be problems if I can't leave. Then there are always the instances where things go wrong; you fumble/miss, CC effects wear off or are dispelled, environmental events, etc. That said, I've been able to easily get to the Bowels (leveling through here really wasn't much worse with the same script on other characters, but I racked up a lot of deaths from ~80 to 89) without using 1207 or feint. I haven't even learned feint yet.
Maybe it's just me and the fact that I'm not as familiar with hunting squares or semis, but I feel much more vulnerable to magic as a monk. My rogues can hide and tend to handle casters well, though they aren't quite at the upper end yet (level 45-69). I've only noticed a real problem with spirit spells on the 66 bard so far, which is understandable. If something goes wrong with the other guys, I just don't feel as vulnerable as I do with the monk. I was hoping the activated part of inner harmony would function better than it does, thinking that would help offset the magic vulnerability, but currently it falls well short of filling that sort of role. And as an added bonus, which I imagine has been pointed out with the dual stance stuff, inner harmony as a stance doesn't quite stack up to slippery mind or krynch.
Half-Krolvin monk, 89:
Strength (STR): 100 (35) ... 110 (40)
Constitution (CON): 100 (35) ... 85 (27)
Dexterity (DEX): 81 (15) ... 91 (20)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 110 (30)
Aura (AUR): 72 (11) ... 82 (16)
Logic (LOG): 100 (15) ... 110 (20)
Intuition (INT): 73 (11) ... 83 (16)
Wisdom (WIS): 88 (14) ... 98 (19)
Influence (INF): 46 (-7) ... 56 (-2)
Two Weapon Combat..................| 5 1
Combat Maneuvers...................| 281 181
Brawling...........................| 282 182
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30
Physical Fitness...................| 351 251 (2.8x)
Dodging............................| 351 251
Harness Power......................| 128 34
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 120 30
Perception.........................| 160 60
Climbing...........................| 179 79
Swimming...........................| 170 70
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20
Spell Lists
Minor Mental.......................| 27
Combat Mobility mobility 2
Surge of Strength surge 3
Evade Mastery emastery 3
Burst of Swiftness burst 5
Perfect Self perfectself 5
Punch Mastery punchmastery 2
Slippery Mind slipperymind 3
Inner Harmony iharmony 3
Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 10
I imagine I'll end up unlearning at least rank 3 of iharmony for 12 points, if not the whole thing for 24.
I believe mine is the highest so far at 89. I put him on the shelf a little while back for a couple of reasons. Having long favored pures, the concept of running when there are two or more critters in the room is not one I'm very fond of. Plus, at higher levels, it can get really difficult to isolate targets and finish a hunt in a decent time-frame. Couple that with the poor multi-target management in a script like Bigshot and the monk doesn't stand a chance at this level. Letting something in the Bowels get a cast off is basically a death sentence and I'm sure that will carry through the the Rift, OTF, and Nelemar as well.
For the most part, I don't expect to have much issue managing things after I get my own script running. If I run into a group of casters or they somehow pile up on me while I'm doing something else, I'm sure there will be problems if I can't leave. Then there are always the instances where things go wrong; you fumble/miss, CC effects wear off or are dispelled, environmental events, etc. That said, I've been able to easily get to the Bowels (leveling through here really wasn't much worse with the same script on other characters, but I racked up a lot of deaths from ~80 to 89) without using 1207 or feint. I haven't even learned feint yet.
Maybe it's just me and the fact that I'm not as familiar with hunting squares or semis, but I feel much more vulnerable to magic as a monk. My rogues can hide and tend to handle casters well, though they aren't quite at the upper end yet (level 45-69). I've only noticed a real problem with spirit spells on the 66 bard so far, which is understandable. If something goes wrong with the other guys, I just don't feel as vulnerable as I do with the monk. I was hoping the activated part of inner harmony would function better than it does, thinking that would help offset the magic vulnerability, but currently it falls well short of filling that sort of role. And as an added bonus, which I imagine has been pointed out with the dual stance stuff, inner harmony as a stance doesn't quite stack up to slippery mind or krynch.
Half-Krolvin monk, 89:
Strength (STR): 100 (35) ... 110 (40)
Constitution (CON): 100 (35) ... 85 (27)
Dexterity (DEX): 81 (15) ... 91 (20)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 110 (30)
Aura (AUR): 72 (11) ... 82 (16)
Logic (LOG): 100 (15) ... 110 (20)
Intuition (INT): 73 (11) ... 83 (16)
Wisdom (WIS): 88 (14) ... 98 (19)
Influence (INF): 46 (-7) ... 56 (-2)
Two Weapon Combat..................| 5 1
Combat Maneuvers...................| 281 181
Brawling...........................| 282 182
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30
Physical Fitness...................| 351 251 (2.8x)
Dodging............................| 351 251
Harness Power......................| 128 34
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 120 30
Perception.........................| 160 60
Climbing...........................| 179 79
Swimming...........................| 170 70
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20
Spell Lists
Minor Mental.......................| 27
Combat Mobility mobility 2
Surge of Strength surge 3
Evade Mastery emastery 3
Burst of Swiftness burst 5
Perfect Self perfectself 5
Punch Mastery punchmastery 2
Slippery Mind slipperymind 3
Inner Harmony iharmony 3
Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 10
I imagine I'll end up unlearning at least rank 3 of iharmony for 12 points, if not the whole thing for 24.
DOUG
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/29/2013 05:53 AM CDT
That's a great question, warrior or rogue. I personally don't think it's a great comparator either way.
All professions have some vulnerability or other, yet as logical as that is to say, it's damned hard to swallow about our own preferred or favorite profession. Then there are pinnacle NPCs (like warfies mentioned) that give several professions problems, except that as logical as it is that those NPCs hit a particular vulnerability, it still shouldn't happen to our own preferred or favorite profession.
Even more humorously, outside spells.
There's moments of brilliance, though -- getting the caster NPC before the cast, and the suggestion that it makes better sense to make improvements along those lines, than along defensive lines. It's an unpopular campaign, though -- because the numbers don't lie. Do they?
We have to take up the unpopular campaign. If we didn't, nothing would ever change. We always seem to fall in the trap of having to compare and contrast between professions, rather than starting with a stand alone analysis. It takes forever. I think I'll spend next week coming up with some wise expression about doing the same thing over and over and over and waiting for the happy surprise of a different ending. Has to be catchy, though. . .
An 80's level monk, incapable of stopping casting and with poor crowd control. Sure sounds tough. And the monk has the spell that increases crowds? What I've always felt missing was the monk's extreme ability to have enemies hindered by their own actions.
Imagine if through some combination of enraging spells, disorienting spells, Multi Opponent Combat, Dodge and maybe . . . oh, Inner Harmony (just because), a crowd of 5 creatures in the Rift were more likely to hit each other than the monk. By an order of magnitude, since these NPCs can and often do attack each other at random. This would allow the monk to take a few shots to disable the spell casting siphon, while the destroyer worked on hewing the master that was spiking the poor cerebralite.
Could be even more fun if the monk's inner harmony gave her a decidedly lessor chance to get attacked if with another. Teams everywhere would clamor to have the monk join them.
And with UAC ability to stack wounds, it shouldn't be a huge chore to disable a caster for the rest of the battle, no matter how long it might take. Well, in many cases (some cases, 'casting' is a natural ability, and head / throat wounds don't stop it). And, except that it takes two, usually. And if it's the right two, the fight's already over. Ninja gangnam style.
Just a couple of thoughts. I'm not going to go haul out my warrior, though, to test them.
Doug
All professions have some vulnerability or other, yet as logical as that is to say, it's damned hard to swallow about our own preferred or favorite profession. Then there are pinnacle NPCs (like warfies mentioned) that give several professions problems, except that as logical as it is that those NPCs hit a particular vulnerability, it still shouldn't happen to our own preferred or favorite profession.
Even more humorously, outside spells.
There's moments of brilliance, though -- getting the caster NPC before the cast, and the suggestion that it makes better sense to make improvements along those lines, than along defensive lines. It's an unpopular campaign, though -- because the numbers don't lie. Do they?
We have to take up the unpopular campaign. If we didn't, nothing would ever change. We always seem to fall in the trap of having to compare and contrast between professions, rather than starting with a stand alone analysis. It takes forever. I think I'll spend next week coming up with some wise expression about doing the same thing over and over and over and waiting for the happy surprise of a different ending. Has to be catchy, though. . .
An 80's level monk, incapable of stopping casting and with poor crowd control. Sure sounds tough. And the monk has the spell that increases crowds? What I've always felt missing was the monk's extreme ability to have enemies hindered by their own actions.
Imagine if through some combination of enraging spells, disorienting spells, Multi Opponent Combat, Dodge and maybe . . . oh, Inner Harmony (just because), a crowd of 5 creatures in the Rift were more likely to hit each other than the monk. By an order of magnitude, since these NPCs can and often do attack each other at random. This would allow the monk to take a few shots to disable the spell casting siphon, while the destroyer worked on hewing the master that was spiking the poor cerebralite.
Could be even more fun if the monk's inner harmony gave her a decidedly lessor chance to get attacked if with another. Teams everywhere would clamor to have the monk join them.
And with UAC ability to stack wounds, it shouldn't be a huge chore to disable a caster for the rest of the battle, no matter how long it might take. Well, in many cases (some cases, 'casting' is a natural ability, and head / throat wounds don't stop it). And, except that it takes two, usually. And if it's the right two, the fight's already over. Ninja gangnam style.
Just a couple of thoughts. I'm not going to go haul out my warrior, though, to test them.
Doug
WOLFFC3
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/29/2013 05:05 PM CDT
From Playnet.com: With the strength of mind, spirit, and body, Monks are the masters of unarmed combat. Typically wearing little to no armor, Monks depend on their skills of evasion to defend themselves. Offensively, Monks chain together quick strikes to overwhelm their foes with jabs, punches, kicks, and throws.
1) Are monks the masters of unarmed combat?
2) Can monks typically survive wearing little or no armor? Is there a point where you die so much from warding spells that most monks will move into armor?
3) At some level does the UCS fail to overwhelm your foe? This works great for the levels of characters that my monk fights, but I'm wondering if the NPC's don't become more difficult to overwhelm later.
>>No reason all monks have to fit into the iron skin niche, my monk prefers the square path unlike what the norm appears to be.<<
There is no reason that they have to fit into the iron skin niche, but that is how they were created.
1) Are monks the masters of unarmed combat?
2) Can monks typically survive wearing little or no armor? Is there a point where you die so much from warding spells that most monks will move into armor?
3) At some level does the UCS fail to overwhelm your foe? This works great for the levels of characters that my monk fights, but I'm wondering if the NPC's don't become more difficult to overwhelm later.
>>No reason all monks have to fit into the iron skin niche, my monk prefers the square path unlike what the norm appears to be.<<
There is no reason that they have to fit into the iron skin niche, but that is how they were created.
ALUVIUS
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/29/2013 10:03 PM CDT
Yeah it bothers me as well when we're told that monks were never designed to be the top tier users of UAC.
RATHBONER
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/30/2013 07:20 AM CDT
>For the most part, I don't expect to have much issue managing things after I get my own script running. If I run into a group of casters or they somehow pile up on me while I'm doing something else, I'm sure there will be problems if I can't leave. Then there are always the instances where things go wrong; you fumble/miss, CC effects wear off or are dispelled, environmental events, etc. That said, I've been able to easily get to the Bowels (leveling through here really wasn't much worse with the same script on other characters, but I racked up a lot of deaths from ~80 to 89) without using 1207 or feint. I haven't even learned feint yet.
Thanks for posting. I don't think there's much point for you in learning feint, the main reason for having it is to hunt critters that you'd just avoid. I find its less effective for ethereal mages now than it was for elder trees when I first got it, I think due to the CMan system generally shifting slightly in favor of defense as you level and I would expect even fewer situations at level 90. If you've got that far without it, I doubt now is the time to pick it up.
I'm surprised you don't use 1207 though, particularly in the Bowels. If you are carrying a pocket e-waver, fine, but 1207 has to be the best way for a monk to make sure that Illoke are prone before they die.
>Maybe it's just me and the fact that I'm not as familiar with hunting squares or semis, but I feel much more vulnerable to magic as a monk.
You are more likely to be warded when cast at. Whether that makes you more vulnerable or not is down to tactics and the situations they put you in. Treat critters with warding spells like critters with manoevers. If you give them chances, sooner or later they will nail you. If they don't one-shot you though, you aren't as squishy and that applies both for manoevers and spells.
The thing I find most surprising in your training is not being 3x dodge. You've pumped your AGI at the cost of low TD stats (that AUR and WIS are another reason you'll be feeling a little bit more vulnerable to warding than some) but you haven't pumped your DS skills.
RAKKASH
Re: Monk Tweaks (crosspost)
03/30/2013 05:45 PM CDT
>Thanks for posting. I don't think there's much point for you in learning feint, the main reason for having it is to hunt critters that you'd just avoid. I find its less effective for ethereal mages now than it was for elder trees when I first got it, I think due to the CMan system generally shifting slightly in favor of defense as you level and I would expect even fewer situations at level 90. If you've got that far without it, I doubt now is the time to pick it up.
I'm not really sure that I will get feint. It was never a part of my plan, but lately I've wondered if it would not be worth having something to put critters in RT if needed.
>I'm surprised you don't use 1207 though, particularly in the Bowels. If you are carrying a pocket e-waver, fine, but 1207 has to be the best way for a monk to make sure that Illoke are prone before they die.
No ewaves. Just a punch to the leg or two and down they go. Part of the problem with using 1207 under the limits of the scripts I'm using right now is that I'd end up wasting a whole lot of mana that I really don't have with 33 ranks of HP. The swarmy nature of the place coupled with my leaving if there are more than two critters in the room would mostly render the tactic useless since I'd end up running from a number of 1207'd targets and eventually not have the mana to even try using it.
If, on the other hand, I punch a leg once or twice and remove it, they're down and will remain down until the area clears some and I get back around to finishing them off.
>The thing I find most surprising in your training is not being 3x dodge. You've pumped your AGI at the cost of low TD stats (that AUR and WIS are another reason you'll be feeling a little bit more vulnerable to warding than some) but you haven't pumped your DS skills.
Eh, not a full 3x, but both dodge and PF are 2.8x. I forget what it was for exactly, but at some point I needed to free up some points and shaved a little off of those skills to free them up. I'm not much of a formula guy, so I dunno if lacking a full 3x dodge has much effect, but it hasn't been a problem that I've noticed. As to the stats... I tend to set them up for TPs to cover whatever build I have laid out for the character. DS really isn't the issue. I get hit, sure, but my deaths are a result of spells.
I'm not really sure that I will get feint. It was never a part of my plan, but lately I've wondered if it would not be worth having something to put critters in RT if needed.
>I'm surprised you don't use 1207 though, particularly in the Bowels. If you are carrying a pocket e-waver, fine, but 1207 has to be the best way for a monk to make sure that Illoke are prone before they die.
No ewaves. Just a punch to the leg or two and down they go. Part of the problem with using 1207 under the limits of the scripts I'm using right now is that I'd end up wasting a whole lot of mana that I really don't have with 33 ranks of HP. The swarmy nature of the place coupled with my leaving if there are more than two critters in the room would mostly render the tactic useless since I'd end up running from a number of 1207'd targets and eventually not have the mana to even try using it.
If, on the other hand, I punch a leg once or twice and remove it, they're down and will remain down until the area clears some and I get back around to finishing them off.
>The thing I find most surprising in your training is not being 3x dodge. You've pumped your AGI at the cost of low TD stats (that AUR and WIS are another reason you'll be feeling a little bit more vulnerable to warding than some) but you haven't pumped your DS skills.
Eh, not a full 3x, but both dodge and PF are 2.8x. I forget what it was for exactly, but at some point I needed to free up some points and shaved a little off of those skills to free them up. I'm not much of a formula guy, so I dunno if lacking a full 3x dodge has much effect, but it hasn't been a problem that I've noticed. As to the stats... I tend to set them up for TPs to cover whatever build I have laid out for the character. DS really isn't the issue. I get hit, sure, but my deaths are a result of spells.
