Hey there,
I've been considered making a brawling cleric (obviously Voln). Is this still viable? What would that training plan look like? I'm thinking possibly Dwarf, but if there are other races that work well (I know that any race can work, but some are better than others!), I'd like to get input.
BOBCATDRAGON
VERSIN
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/03/2017 11:06 AM CDT
Check out the paladin profession, a more melee-oriented spiritualist.
BOBCATDRAGON
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/03/2017 10:45 PM CDT
I have. And here I am, asking about a brawling cleric! I'm not into the whole... paladin... thing.
DRUMPEL
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 07:16 AM CDT
I don't do brawling (it's been many, many, many years since I did brawling or used Voln Fu) anymore. But the idea of a cleric only being able to 1x in brawling, I'm not sure how effective it would be for you.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but you may find relying on brawling aspect of combat to be a fall back attack method and not a primary form of attack. At least, that's how I'd view it.
-Drumpel
I'm not saying it can't be done, but you may find relying on brawling aspect of combat to be a fall back attack method and not a primary form of attack. At least, that's how I'd view it.
-Drumpel
COLEMANJ
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 08:12 AM CDT
Jessa has a brawling cleric, with sanctified gauntlets (handwraps, something.) I think she's in her 20's or so, and seems to be doing quite well with it. I've heard her mention multiple times how much she loves it, though that's been a bit, I've yet to hear anything contradictory.
VERSIN
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 11:05 AM CDT
Exactly. With the caveat that anything can be done in GS with enough patience, the undead-fighting melee class is designed to be the paladin, which can train brawling 2x with cheaper TP costs, not to mention CMANs, MOC, etc. The brawling class is designed to be the monk.
A brawling cleric would be reliant on 301 to freeze their opponent while they punching bagged them to death. So, maximize your cleric CS, get AS/MIU for outside AS-boosting spells, and get the physical skills whenever you can.
A brawling cleric would be reliant on 301 to freeze their opponent while they punching bagged them to death. So, maximize your cleric CS, get AS/MIU for outside AS-boosting spells, and get the physical skills whenever you can.
OM1E5GA
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 11:10 AM CDT
Usually, when there are few people that use a build, there's a good reason why it's not popular.
That said, I would think a brawling cleric would be easier then a brawling paladin since paladins are designed to take advantage of heavy armor, which severely hinders UCS. Also, their greater access to disabling spells and AS boosters (all of which should increase UAC) would help make up for only being able to 1x in brawling, esp if they could find the TPs to get a decent number of ranks in Blessing lore.
If everything else failed, the brawling cleric can always take advantage of channeling 302.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
That said, I would think a brawling cleric would be easier then a brawling paladin since paladins are designed to take advantage of heavy armor, which severely hinders UCS. Also, their greater access to disabling spells and AS boosters (all of which should increase UAC) would help make up for only being able to 1x in brawling, esp if they could find the TPs to get a decent number of ranks in Blessing lore.
If everything else failed, the brawling cleric can always take advantage of channeling 302.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
MOURNE
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 01:27 PM CDT
I don't have a brawling cleric, but I do have a brawling empath pushing 30 that uses it as their primary combat mechanic, and there's a fair bit of overlap in spell availability between them. You may lag a bit in UAF, but if you can get your hands on some decently enchanted boots/gloves (5x/6x) I expect you'll do fine.
1x CM, 1x Brawl, 2x spells, everything else to taste. I recommend going up to brig or torso chain for armor eventually, you may or may not be able to afford tertiaries or lores. Make liberal use of scroll- or MIU- based offensive boosts as you can get your hands on them.
Kick often, the non-pure brawlers may rely more heavily on their hands, but that extra oomph from your feet as a pure can make all the difference and is worth an extra second of RT.
And, of course, you've got some excellent disablers as a cleric, make use of them.
---
Cendadric says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 110 silver coins for it."
1x CM, 1x Brawl, 2x spells, everything else to taste. I recommend going up to brig or torso chain for armor eventually, you may or may not be able to afford tertiaries or lores. Make liberal use of scroll- or MIU- based offensive boosts as you can get your hands on them.
Kick often, the non-pure brawlers may rely more heavily on their hands, but that extra oomph from your feet as a pure can make all the difference and is worth an extra second of RT.
And, of course, you've got some excellent disablers as a cleric, make use of them.
---
Cendadric says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 110 silver coins for it."
RCORTEZ575
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 01:36 PM CDT
I currently am a brawling/shield cleric. Still young, but it seems to work fine for me. Combined with the shield and self-cast spells my DS is enough to survive a lot of poor stance dancing.
My UAF isn't the best but getting to Heroism(215) helps a bunch.
I tested out using just brawling and adding the 0.5x training in TWC to add to DS. At my current level the DS difference isn't too bad. However, I'm not sold on the added channel damage of both open hands versus the additional MTP costs.
My UAF isn't the best but getting to Heroism(215) helps a bunch.
I tested out using just brawling and adding the 0.5x training in TWC to add to DS. At my current level the DS difference isn't too bad. However, I'm not sold on the added channel damage of both open hands versus the additional MTP costs.
LEAFIARA
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 01:56 PM CDT
Well, to me this kind of depends on why you're interested in a cleric.
If because of 318/319/325/350/some other cleric-specific spell, or you want to RP a cleric specifically, etc.:
THWs or polearms are probably the way to go for sheer effectiveness if you have to be a cleric but want to swing, and I say that as someone who trained brawling--and used it--from 55 to cap. (Was OHE before that, which I would never ever ever ever ever recommend to anyone. Ever.)
Still, to answer... There's nothing too complex about the training path. Just train brawling and combat maneuvers and go for at least brig--I went to chain mail myself. Brawling works against bandits forever. You'll have to lead with a spell, but even most semis do that. Against other foes... it works up through minotaurs decently enough, with the highest level mino being 78. I can't say I had success with it in the Bowels (too swarmy) or at the end of the Red Forest (where treekins stand up even with no legs). In the Rift, well... I mean, it works, but it's really risky.
By the way, I don't know how this works out at earlier levels, but when I finally got around to trying this at, like, level 90 or whenever I found that having a runestaff in hand doesn't drop your MM all that much. So if you want to keep runestaff DS while still brawling, instead of going out with open hands, it's doable.
If you want to be a rescuer:
Look into THW empaths. For a long time they have AS like semis and you can still rescue with 130 and 225. Armor and weapon training costs are noticeably higher for empaths than for clerics, so you'll have less combat maneuver training. On the other hand, you don't need it for AS because 1109 + 1130 is significantly better than 307 + nothing and you don't need it for maneuver defense because you'll have at least twice as many PF ranks as a cleric would.
The downside: empaths don't have 319, which is an incredible defensive tool. Empaths heal off the hits they take, but it's even better to avoid the first attack anything throws at you. That's most noticeable with bandits, where often the first hit from hiding is the only one you care about avoiding.
If you want to hunt by brawling but also mix in magic:
Look into rangers. UAC rewards knockdowns and ambushing and rangers are good at both.
If because of 318/319/325/350/some other cleric-specific spell, or you want to RP a cleric specifically, etc.:
THWs or polearms are probably the way to go for sheer effectiveness if you have to be a cleric but want to swing, and I say that as someone who trained brawling--and used it--from 55 to cap. (Was OHE before that, which I would never ever ever ever ever recommend to anyone. Ever.)
Still, to answer... There's nothing too complex about the training path. Just train brawling and combat maneuvers and go for at least brig--I went to chain mail myself. Brawling works against bandits forever. You'll have to lead with a spell, but even most semis do that. Against other foes... it works up through minotaurs decently enough, with the highest level mino being 78. I can't say I had success with it in the Bowels (too swarmy) or at the end of the Red Forest (where treekins stand up even with no legs). In the Rift, well... I mean, it works, but it's really risky.
By the way, I don't know how this works out at earlier levels, but when I finally got around to trying this at, like, level 90 or whenever I found that having a runestaff in hand doesn't drop your MM all that much. So if you want to keep runestaff DS while still brawling, instead of going out with open hands, it's doable.
If you want to be a rescuer:
Look into THW empaths. For a long time they have AS like semis and you can still rescue with 130 and 225. Armor and weapon training costs are noticeably higher for empaths than for clerics, so you'll have less combat maneuver training. On the other hand, you don't need it for AS because 1109 + 1130 is significantly better than 307 + nothing and you don't need it for maneuver defense because you'll have at least twice as many PF ranks as a cleric would.
The downside: empaths don't have 319, which is an incredible defensive tool. Empaths heal off the hits they take, but it's even better to avoid the first attack anything throws at you. That's most noticeable with bandits, where often the first hit from hiding is the only one you care about avoiding.
If you want to hunt by brawling but also mix in magic:
Look into rangers. UAC rewards knockdowns and ambushing and rangers are good at both.
RATHBONER
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 03:50 PM CDT
>The downside: empaths don't have 319, which is an incredible defensive tool. Empaths heal off the hits they take, but it's even better to avoid the first attack anything throws at you. That's most noticeable with bandits, where often the first hit from hiding is the only one you care about avoiding.
Do you find 2x spell training gives enough CS for 319 against bandits? While I find 319 makes most hunting (including bandits) fairly easy on a Baniac build, its not much use on my THW build and I've never actually tried it against bandits because the failure rate I get on other critters would make it suicidal.
Do you find 2x spell training gives enough CS for 319 against bandits? While I find 319 makes most hunting (including bandits) fairly easy on a Baniac build, its not much use on my THW build and I've never actually tried it against bandits because the failure rate I get on other critters would make it suicidal.
ROBERTSM8
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 04:00 PM CDT
Are you thinking 316, RATHBONER? 319 blocks the first incoming attack from critters. Or does that have a hidden TD roll I'm not aware of? Being capped, its just always worked.
316 is the mass disabler.
JOSGEM
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 09:37 PM CDT
Wasn't there an old 319?
317 definitely nukes bandits, but I don't try and solo them as it takes too long to kill with Bane and I don't have enough mana to kill with 317.
My experience with bandits is that they just ignored 319 consistently. I believe there IS a hidden TD roll to ignore the effect, because it's definitely able to be ignored -- there's a message for it but I forget what it is.
JOSGEM
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/04/2017 09:49 PM CDT
From the 319 spell description:
>The attempt to shield the Cleric is based upon a hidden warding attempt with the attacker receiving -25 TD. If the attacker fails to ward, their attack is negated.
Over-trained by +21 in cleric and with a -25 TD push-down should make this a nearly-always-auto-success, but there are always fumbles and higher level/spelled enemies, I suppose.
>The attempt to shield the Cleric is based upon a hidden warding attempt with the attacker receiving -25 TD. If the attacker fails to ward, their attack is negated.
Over-trained by +21 in cleric and with a -25 TD push-down should make this a nearly-always-auto-success, but there are always fumbles and higher level/spelled enemies, I suppose.
LEAFIARA
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/05/2017 03:24 AM CDT
If RATHBONER was talking about 316 (Censure), I don't use that when I'm hunting bandits solo, but I do in groups or on escorts. It's always powered by one of my charges of 340 since Symbol of Renewal lets me recharge my symbol as many times as I have mana for, so the only way it won't hit is if armor hindrance stops me.
I know it would be different at lower levels, though, since I have 100 Influence along with a half-elf's +5 bonus. For clerics who tank Influence, which I'm sure is most of them precap (if not also postcap), I'm guessing they'd have to be an elf or erithian to use 316 that way before level 60+.
Now, if RATHBONER meant 319 (Soul Ward)... I checked the log of a bandit bounty and the escort bounty that came right after it. With 116 Cleric and 40 each of Minor and Major Spiritual (which isn't even 2x spells), I got:
Bandit group 1: Blocked ambush, blocked ambush, failed against Subdual Strike (8 roll), blocked ambush + second chance flare
Bandits 2: Blocked ambush, blocked ambush, failed against Throatchop (7 roll)
Bandits 3: Failed against ambush, blocked ambush, blocked ambush
Lingering bandit: Blocked Shield Bash (86 roll) + second chance flare
Bandits 4: Failed against ambush + second chance flare, failed against ambush, failed against Shield Bash (10 roll)
Bandits 5: Failed against ambush, blocked ambush, failed against Groin Kick (11 roll)
Bandits 6: Failed against ambush, blocked Groin Kick (129 roll), blocked Sweep (20 roll), blocked ambush
Bandits 7: Failed against ambush, blocked ambush
Bandits 8: Blocked Subdual Strike (18 roll), blocked ambush
Escort bandits 1: Failed against ambush, blocked Subdual Strike (24 roll) + second chance flare, blocked ambush, blocked ambush
So that's 18 hits blocked and 11 failed, and two of the hits that my cleric didn't need to deal with would probably have been the death of my empath. First the 86 Shield Bash (well, she might have survived because there was only one bandit in this weird case, but normally there would be more), then later the 129 Groin Kick would have stanced her and knocked her to her knees, giving the Sweep afterward enough of a bonus to get her prone and stack RT so attacks could finish up from there.
I know it would be different at lower levels, though, since I have 100 Influence along with a half-elf's +5 bonus. For clerics who tank Influence, which I'm sure is most of them precap (if not also postcap), I'm guessing they'd have to be an elf or erithian to use 316 that way before level 60+.
Now, if RATHBONER meant 319 (Soul Ward)... I checked the log of a bandit bounty and the escort bounty that came right after it. With 116 Cleric and 40 each of Minor and Major Spiritual (which isn't even 2x spells), I got:
Bandit group 1: Blocked ambush, blocked ambush, failed against Subdual Strike (8 roll), blocked ambush + second chance flare
Bandits 2: Blocked ambush, blocked ambush, failed against Throatchop (7 roll)
Bandits 3: Failed against ambush, blocked ambush, blocked ambush
Lingering bandit: Blocked Shield Bash (86 roll) + second chance flare
Bandits 4: Failed against ambush + second chance flare, failed against ambush, failed against Shield Bash (10 roll)
Bandits 5: Failed against ambush, blocked ambush, failed against Groin Kick (11 roll)
Bandits 6: Failed against ambush, blocked Groin Kick (129 roll), blocked Sweep (20 roll), blocked ambush
Bandits 7: Failed against ambush, blocked ambush
Bandits 8: Blocked Subdual Strike (18 roll), blocked ambush
Escort bandits 1: Failed against ambush, blocked Subdual Strike (24 roll) + second chance flare, blocked ambush, blocked ambush
So that's 18 hits blocked and 11 failed, and two of the hits that my cleric didn't need to deal with would probably have been the death of my empath. First the 86 Shield Bash (well, she might have survived because there was only one bandit in this weird case, but normally there would be more), then later the 129 Groin Kick would have stanced her and knocked her to her knees, giving the Sweep afterward enough of a bonus to get her prone and stack RT so attacks could finish up from there.
RATHBONER
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/05/2017 08:53 AM CDT
>Are you thinking 316, RATHBONER? 319 blocks the first incoming attack from critters. Or does that have a hidden TD roll I'm not aware of? Being capped, its just always worked.
My experience with 3x builds is that it always works, but if you are 2x it has significant failure rates (about 60% failure rate on my 2x cleric's current hunting). Its a hidden modified TD roll.
>Over-trained by +21 in cleric and with a -25 TD push-down should make this a nearly-always-auto-success, but there are always fumbles and higher level/spelled enemies, I suppose.
It was -25 push down on release which did make it nearly always auto a bit too often and entirely too good for non-clerics, so its now +level/5 push UP. Also overtraining +21 isn't really on for a 2x cleric until pretty close to cap.
>With 116 Cleric and 40 each of Minor and Major Spiritual (which isn't even 2x spells), I got: ...
But how did you manage before you had 140 and 340? e.g. how did you do it at level 30 and level 60? I've done it on a 3x build, but I don't see how to do it on a 2x swinging build.
My experience with 3x builds is that it always works, but if you are 2x it has significant failure rates (about 60% failure rate on my 2x cleric's current hunting). Its a hidden modified TD roll.
>Over-trained by +21 in cleric and with a -25 TD push-down should make this a nearly-always-auto-success, but there are always fumbles and higher level/spelled enemies, I suppose.
It was -25 push down on release which did make it nearly always auto a bit too often and entirely too good for non-clerics, so its now +level/5 push UP. Also overtraining +21 isn't really on for a 2x cleric until pretty close to cap.
>With 116 Cleric and 40 each of Minor and Major Spiritual (which isn't even 2x spells), I got: ...
But how did you manage before you had 140 and 340? e.g. how did you do it at level 30 and level 60? I've done it on a 3x build, but I don't see how to do it on a 2x swinging build.
LEAFIARA
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/05/2017 02:51 PM CDT
I can't really comment on level 30 since I was OHE at the time. Bandits in the mid-50s weren't a problem, just web and swing. The early 60s were a shift because suddenly bandits were wearing metal breastplate, so I'll definitely say that's a rough time for bandits as a cleric because CS hasn't caught up to a sudden jump in CvA. Still better against bandits than empaths, though, because bandits flip two coins against empaths (does their AI pick a powerful maneuver and do they roll high enough?) but flip three against clerics (do they also get past 319?).
And I never use 140 against bandits unless I'm going after them self-spelled, which happens maybe once a month? As long as I have at least one out of wizardlies and rangerlies, AS attacks that aren't Spirit Strike-powered ranged shots have never been an issue for me... It's all about the maneuvers.
And I never use 140 against bandits unless I'm going after them self-spelled, which happens maybe once a month? As long as I have at least one out of wizardlies and rangerlies, AS attacks that aren't Spirit Strike-powered ranged shots have never been an issue for me... It's all about the maneuvers.
JOSGEM
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/05/2017 03:11 PM CDT
Sorry to distract from the topic here and bring it to myself: were you only able to do this because of webbing and swinging, Leafiara?
I'm about 2.5x spelled in FGB, but Smite specced, and I can't imagine having the mana to use 317 enough on them. I skip bandits solo but would love to figure them out.
~Giantkin servant of Lorminstra, Proud member of Helden Hall~
I'm about 2.5x spelled in FGB, but Smite specced, and I can't imagine having the mana to use 317 enough on them. I skip bandits solo but would love to figure them out.
~Giantkin servant of Lorminstra, Proud member of Helden Hall~
RATHBONER
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/06/2017 09:27 AM CDT
>I'm about 2.5x spelled in FGB, but Smite specced, and I can't imagine having the mana to use 317 enough on them. I skip bandits solo but would love to figure them out.
Do escorts while you work on it. They are less mana intensive since you'll have only about 1/3 the ambushes per task. 316/302 works fine for me in the 30s, (2.75x though, I reckon 2.5x is low end for pure CS training) not sure when you would need to be using 317 over 302, but do some escorts and see how your mana lasts.
> Bandits in the mid-50s weren't a problem, just web and swing.
How does web and swing stop a bandit that you don't know is there taking you out with its first swing from ambush? I have yet to survive a single action by a bandit on that character (because the first action killed me so easily that I haven't been back for a second, my analysis was don't even think about trying again till I have 140, I can't see any other way to get enough DS to survive that first blow)
Do escorts while you work on it. They are less mana intensive since you'll have only about 1/3 the ambushes per task. 316/302 works fine for me in the 30s, (2.75x though, I reckon 2.5x is low end for pure CS training) not sure when you would need to be using 317 over 302, but do some escorts and see how your mana lasts.
> Bandits in the mid-50s weren't a problem, just web and swing.
How does web and swing stop a bandit that you don't know is there taking you out with its first swing from ambush? I have yet to survive a single action by a bandit on that character (because the first action killed me so easily that I haven't been back for a second, my analysis was don't even think about trying again till I have 140, I can't see any other way to get enough DS to survive that first blow)
GS4-ESTILD
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/06/2017 10:09 AM CDT
Amusingly, the impetus for Soul Ward (319) was because I was tired of walking into a room and instantly being incapacitated by bandits. :)
GameMaster Estild
GameMaster Estild
LEAFIARA
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/06/2017 02:25 PM CDT
>Sorry to distract from the topic here and bring it to myself: were you only able to do this because of webbing and swinging, Leafiara?
>I'm about 2.5x spelled in FGB, but Smite specced, and I can't imagine having the mana to use 317 enough on them. I skip bandits solo but would love to figure them out.
I'm a Smite cleric too. And early on, right, I just webbed and then started swinging. Web apparently has a -25 TD pushdown, so it's very easy and efficient to hit with and I almost always only needed to cast it once per bandit... I think I'd still do it that way today if I had to do it over again.
At cap I use a 340-powered 317 instead, because either they instantly die or they lose a limb and become useless enough to finish up with melee at no risk. I know you wouldn't be able to cast that for every bandit on a bounty at your level, especially if you don't have 50+ Blessings, but you could try a similar strategy too if you want and if you didn't set Influence to 20 like most people do... Since you're a giant in Voln, you have the same race Influence bonus and access to Symbol of Renewal that I do, but also recover spirit faster naturally on top of that.
>How does web and swing stop a bandit that you don't know is there taking you out with its first swing from ambush? I have yet to survive a single action by a bandit on that character (because the first action killed me so easily that I haven't been back for a second, my analysis was don't even think about trying again till I have 140, I can't see any other way to get enough DS to survive that first blow)
Bandits didn't hit me with the initial ambush in the mid-50s because of 319. It wasn't until they made the sudden jump to MBP that it became any real issue. But why DS is an issue for you is where I'm lost, unless you're self-spelled only... Maybe you got unlucky with a bandit that jumped out with Spirit Strike up?
Here's part of a log I found from level 54 bandits, when I'm pretty sure my spell ranks were 50 Cleric, 30 Minor Spiritual, 19 Major Spiritual:
Suddenly, a carefully concealed net springs up from the ground, completely entangling you!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
A human outlaw quickly approaches!
A halfling brigand quickly approaches!
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
A halfling brigand positions himself to attack you.
The evanescent shield shrouding you flares to life and absorbs the oncoming blow. Before fading, it flickers with a pale incandescence.
A human outlaw positions himself to attack you.
The evanescent shield shrouding you flares to life and absorbs the oncoming blow.
A halfling brigand pulls out a small statue and rubs it!
A faint silvery glow surrounds a halfling brigand.
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a human outlaw engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A human outlaw swings a short sword at you!
AS: +314 vs DS: +275 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +18 = +82
A clean miss.
A human outlaw swings a short sword at you!
AS: +314 vs DS: +275 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +71 = +135
... and hits for 5 points of damage!
Glancing blow to your left leg!
That was with a +22 small shield (and no training for it) and OHE in my hands and full outside spells (no small statue and probably no 1601), but without the 50 or so DS I would have gotten from 102 and Symbol of Protection.
After getting untangled, my DS in offensive with Symbol of Protection up was 351, which would be 301 prone. So even if I was swept and even if this bandit had a handaxe instead of a short sword, it still wouldn't have been threatening.
Oh, I had a thought, so I deleted my post and put it back up to add this... Maybe a big difference maker is race and how initial stats were set up? Half-elves have nice agility bonuses and I originally set my stats to have several 100s in the level 60-65 range. I'm guessing I had 94-96 agility around level 54.
Okay, I had a second thought. :P Just because I'm a brawling cleric doesn't mean that bandits attack against openhanded DS--I carry an 8x shield and an open right hand, I blast them with 317, then I put away the shield and start swinging. Likewise, if I was a THW cleric, I'd hold a runestaff at first, then disable or take limbs off, then swap weapons to swing.
>I'm about 2.5x spelled in FGB, but Smite specced, and I can't imagine having the mana to use 317 enough on them. I skip bandits solo but would love to figure them out.
I'm a Smite cleric too. And early on, right, I just webbed and then started swinging. Web apparently has a -25 TD pushdown, so it's very easy and efficient to hit with and I almost always only needed to cast it once per bandit... I think I'd still do it that way today if I had to do it over again.
At cap I use a 340-powered 317 instead, because either they instantly die or they lose a limb and become useless enough to finish up with melee at no risk. I know you wouldn't be able to cast that for every bandit on a bounty at your level, especially if you don't have 50+ Blessings, but you could try a similar strategy too if you want and if you didn't set Influence to 20 like most people do... Since you're a giant in Voln, you have the same race Influence bonus and access to Symbol of Renewal that I do, but also recover spirit faster naturally on top of that.
>How does web and swing stop a bandit that you don't know is there taking you out with its first swing from ambush? I have yet to survive a single action by a bandit on that character (because the first action killed me so easily that I haven't been back for a second, my analysis was don't even think about trying again till I have 140, I can't see any other way to get enough DS to survive that first blow)
Bandits didn't hit me with the initial ambush in the mid-50s because of 319. It wasn't until they made the sudden jump to MBP that it became any real issue. But why DS is an issue for you is where I'm lost, unless you're self-spelled only... Maybe you got unlucky with a bandit that jumped out with Spirit Strike up?
Here's part of a log I found from level 54 bandits, when I'm pretty sure my spell ranks were 50 Cleric, 30 Minor Spiritual, 19 Major Spiritual:
Suddenly, a carefully concealed net springs up from the ground, completely entangling you!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
A human outlaw quickly approaches!
A halfling brigand quickly approaches!
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
A halfling brigand positions himself to attack you.
The evanescent shield shrouding you flares to life and absorbs the oncoming blow. Before fading, it flickers with a pale incandescence.
A human outlaw positions himself to attack you.
The evanescent shield shrouding you flares to life and absorbs the oncoming blow.
A halfling brigand pulls out a small statue and rubs it!
A faint silvery glow surrounds a halfling brigand.
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a human outlaw engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A human outlaw swings a short sword at you!
AS: +314 vs DS: +275 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +18 = +82
A clean miss.
A human outlaw swings a short sword at you!
AS: +314 vs DS: +275 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +71 = +135
... and hits for 5 points of damage!
Glancing blow to your left leg!
That was with a +22 small shield (and no training for it) and OHE in my hands and full outside spells (no small statue and probably no 1601), but without the 50 or so DS I would have gotten from 102 and Symbol of Protection.
After getting untangled, my DS in offensive with Symbol of Protection up was 351, which would be 301 prone. So even if I was swept and even if this bandit had a handaxe instead of a short sword, it still wouldn't have been threatening.
Oh, I had a thought, so I deleted my post and put it back up to add this... Maybe a big difference maker is race and how initial stats were set up? Half-elves have nice agility bonuses and I originally set my stats to have several 100s in the level 60-65 range. I'm guessing I had 94-96 agility around level 54.
Okay, I had a second thought. :P Just because I'm a brawling cleric doesn't mean that bandits attack against openhanded DS--I carry an 8x shield and an open right hand, I blast them with 317, then I put away the shield and start swinging. Likewise, if I was a THW cleric, I'd hold a runestaff at first, then disable or take limbs off, then swap weapons to swing.
RATHBONER
Re: Brawling Cleric
04/07/2017 10:12 AM CDT
>That was with a +22 small shield
Thats a big difference, I thought you said you only had a shield in the 30s.
102 might be another one. The rules have changed on that so having it up for the initial attack and then stopping is now possible.
>I'm guessing I had 94-96 agility around level 54.
Thats another advantage. A good 20 maybe even 25 points in AGI bonus on me there.
> unless you're self-spelled only...
I'm normally self-spelled with standard gear (maybe 5x rather than 4x, maybe a flare rather than a plain 4x). Scrolls and imbeds would bring me to about the same as a full wiz+ranger othercast when testing a new opponent though from different spells. I calculated I'd need 140 on top of that. I'm not sure whether gaming configurations would be enough to do without it or not, but I can see why you reckon you don't need it I reckon I do.
Thats a big difference, I thought you said you only had a shield in the 30s.
102 might be another one. The rules have changed on that so having it up for the initial attack and then stopping is now possible.
>I'm guessing I had 94-96 agility around level 54.
Thats another advantage. A good 20 maybe even 25 points in AGI bonus on me there.
> unless you're self-spelled only...
I'm normally self-spelled with standard gear (maybe 5x rather than 4x, maybe a flare rather than a plain 4x). Scrolls and imbeds would bring me to about the same as a full wiz+ranger othercast when testing a new opponent though from different spells. I calculated I'd need 140 on top of that. I'm not sure whether gaming configurations would be enough to do without it or not, but I can see why you reckon you don't need it I reckon I do.
BOBCATDRAGON
Re: Brawling Cleric
02/12/2018 09:30 PM CST
Wow, this was 10 months ago?
Anyway, he just hit 30 and I've really enjoyed playing him. I haven't bothered yet picking up any TWC and he's doing fine, defensively. I'm sloooowly adding MOC where I can. My question is spells. Right now he has 19 in each Spirit and 30 in Cleric. Any recommendations as to what base(s) might be most beneficial to go up at this point?
Anyway, he just hit 30 and I've really enjoyed playing him. I haven't bothered yet picking up any TWC and he's doing fine, defensively. I'm sloooowly adding MOC where I can. My question is spells. Right now he has 19 in each Spirit and 30 in Cleric. Any recommendations as to what base(s) might be most beneficial to go up at this point?
OM1E5GA
Re: Brawling Cleric
02/13/2018 06:37 PM CST
<Any recommendations as to what base(s) might be most beneficial to go up at this point?>
I don't know what you mean by bases, but since you're asking about recommendations, I would suggest getting a single rank in TWC as soon as you can afford it.
Your defenses prolly are fine for now and will be for quite a while so long as you're not under any status effects. You're going to be getting to the point soon where you'll be encountering an increasing number of critters able to use maneuvers to make you prone/stunned/RT locked/stanced up/etc, though. A single rank might not seem like it'll do much, but it will open up parry defense for your brawler which could very well be the bit extra you need to survive a hairy situation that would otherwise result in death.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I don't know what you mean by bases, but since you're asking about recommendations, I would suggest getting a single rank in TWC as soon as you can afford it.
Your defenses prolly are fine for now and will be for quite a while so long as you're not under any status effects. You're going to be getting to the point soon where you'll be encountering an increasing number of critters able to use maneuvers to make you prone/stunned/RT locked/stanced up/etc, though. A single rank might not seem like it'll do much, but it will open up parry defense for your brawler which could very well be the bit extra you need to survive a hairy situation that would otherwise result in death.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
LEAFIARA
Re: Brawling Cleric
02/13/2018 07:20 PM CST
I'd say go to 120 for Lesser Shroud and then start pushing Cleric Base for a stronger Soul Ward, which is your best defensive tool and IMO is better than the extra DS you'd get from pushing Minor Spiritual.
(I assume Soul Ward's hidden roll is based on CS, anyway, but I don't know that for sure. It seemed that way to me as I made the slow climb to 3x spells.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
(I assume Soul Ward's hidden roll is based on CS, anyway, but I don't know that for sure. It seemed that way to me as I made the slow climb to 3x spells.)
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
RATHBONER
Re: Brawling Cleric
02/14/2018 05:41 AM CST
>(I assume Soul Ward's hidden roll is based on CS, anyway, but I don't know that for sure. It seemed that way to me as I made the slow climb to 3x spells.)
Its your CS against the attackers TD + level/5
The level/5 bonus the attacker gets means you really have to push cleric spells to maximise the benefit from 319
The only reason for going for one of the other circles would be if your favorite disabler was in there, but it would really have to be a strong favorite to stick with it rather than relying on cleric circle disablers. You lose out massively elsewhere by boosting another circles CS rather than the cleric circle.
Its your CS against the attackers TD + level/5
The level/5 bonus the attacker gets means you really have to push cleric spells to maximise the benefit from 319
The only reason for going for one of the other circles would be if your favorite disabler was in there, but it would really have to be a strong favorite to stick with it rather than relying on cleric circle disablers. You lose out massively elsewhere by boosting another circles CS rather than the cleric circle.
BOBCATDRAGON
Re: Brawling Cleric
02/17/2018 09:23 PM CST
Cool, thanks. When you say push Cleric, is 1x enough or should it be more?
RATHBONER
Re: Brawling Cleric
02/18/2018 05:49 AM CST
>Cool, thanks. When you say push Cleric, is 1x enough or should it be more?
I don't know how high a rate of 319 firing a brawling cleric needs before it becomes a major benefit, but I reckon it isn't a major benefit for a weapon user with 2x spells and cleric at level, and it is a major benefit to a pure CS build with 2.7x spells placed to maximise cleric CS.
I don't know how high a rate of 319 firing a brawling cleric needs before it becomes a major benefit, but I reckon it isn't a major benefit for a weapon user with 2x spells and cleric at level, and it is a major benefit to a pure CS build with 2.7x spells placed to maximise cleric CS.
LEAFIARA
Re: Brawling Cleric
02/18/2018 02:08 PM CST
I'd make the push to level +21 in cleric ranks. I mentioned 319 before, but another benefit is a higher warding margin on 316 so you can immobilize (151+ endrolls) and not just stun (101-150). And if you run into things that aren't good brawling targets for one reason or another, like immunity to UAC, the extra CS will be a good fallback.
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara
BOBCATDRAGON
