I rolled up a dwarf cleric for fun. Has to be dwarf for RP purposes. Voln all the way, of course. My questions are:
1. Would shield/OHB be better than Brawl? I envision him as a more martial cleric than pure warding caster.
2. What defensive skills does one train if going brawl? Dodge seems prohibitively expensive. Do we generate enough DS from spells to make it unnecessary?
3. My wizard is my main so really not interested in bolting as another hunting option, so assume that I will not train in Spell Aim and have those points to use elsewhere. Also means I probably will only single MIU/AS as I don't need the runestave DS.
Thanks for all your help/advice.
LALAKERCLAN
RATHBONER
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/08/2015 05:54 AM CDT
>1. Would shield/OHB be better than Brawl? I envision him as a more martial cleric than pure warding caster.
It really comes down to whether you'd rather be not that good at UAC on critters or not that good at swinging a mace at them. The combat style is completely different.
>2. What defensive skills does one train if going brawl? Dodge seems prohibitively expensive. Do we generate enough DS from spells to make it unnecessary?
Dodge is postcap training. You should be fully 3x in spells and have points waiting to be used before considering it. Spells are your main source of DS, then you can get more from holding a runestaff or shield, but to the detriment of your UAC.
>3. My wizard is my main so really not interested in bolting as another hunting option, so assume that I will not train in Spell Aim and have those points to use elsewhere. Also means I probably will only single MIU/AS as I don't need the runestave DS.
Single training AS/MIU for DS from runestaff isn't worth the points, let alone doubling. If you want to use items and scrolls, then your DS is a little better, but if the main reason for training them is DS, you need to be getting that DS from things like 503 imbeds. Otherwise 3x spells, then train dodge and dodge isn't going to be worth it until post cap.
The main benefit of runestaff DS is that its free. (Counting 0.5-1 MTP of a skill's cost against its additional runestaff DS is fair value, so its worth having if you were training the skill anyway, but not worth having if you weren't)
If you are intending to use swinging as your normal attack and usually just setup spells, you'll need to train CMan as well and should stick to 2x spells. If you are intending to use 302 as your main attack you should train 2.5x in spells. Its effective, but when you are a one trick pony, that trick needs to be trained for.
It really comes down to whether you'd rather be not that good at UAC on critters or not that good at swinging a mace at them. The combat style is completely different.
>2. What defensive skills does one train if going brawl? Dodge seems prohibitively expensive. Do we generate enough DS from spells to make it unnecessary?
Dodge is postcap training. You should be fully 3x in spells and have points waiting to be used before considering it. Spells are your main source of DS, then you can get more from holding a runestaff or shield, but to the detriment of your UAC.
>3. My wizard is my main so really not interested in bolting as another hunting option, so assume that I will not train in Spell Aim and have those points to use elsewhere. Also means I probably will only single MIU/AS as I don't need the runestave DS.
Single training AS/MIU for DS from runestaff isn't worth the points, let alone doubling. If you want to use items and scrolls, then your DS is a little better, but if the main reason for training them is DS, you need to be getting that DS from things like 503 imbeds. Otherwise 3x spells, then train dodge and dodge isn't going to be worth it until post cap.
The main benefit of runestaff DS is that its free. (Counting 0.5-1 MTP of a skill's cost against its additional runestaff DS is fair value, so its worth having if you were training the skill anyway, but not worth having if you weren't)
If you are intending to use swinging as your normal attack and usually just setup spells, you'll need to train CMan as well and should stick to 2x spells. If you are intending to use 302 as your main attack you should train 2.5x in spells. Its effective, but when you are a one trick pony, that trick needs to be trained for.
AMMINAR
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/08/2015 04:54 PM CDT
| 1. Would shield/OHB be better than Brawl? I envision him as a more martial cleric than pure warding caster. |
I don't think either is significantly better than the other. Go with whatever you think would be more fun or suits the character!
| 2. What defensive skills does one train if going brawl? Dodge seems prohibitively expensive. Do we generate enough DS from spells to make it unnecessary? |
I disagree on the value of 3x spells, at least after level 20 or so. (Before then, between 2x-3x can be good when it gives you a significant new spell, and you'd want to shoot for 211/215 pretty early, and 120 would be nice.) Keeping Cleric Base trained at level is optimal for defense, sure... you get various DS bonuses from 303, 307, 310, 313 within certain limits at earlier levels, and then it's +1.5 DS/rank from level 35 onward for 303/313. But putting in a third train to bring either MnS or MjS closer to level is not an efficient use of TPs for the DS it gives you.
MnS gives you +1 DS per rank (or really +2 per 2 ranks) from 102 and 120. As a swinger/brawler you probably shouldn't even use 102, so it's really +1 DS per 2 ranks. MjS is +1 DS per 3 ranks (from 202). So we're talking 64 MTP (or 128 PTP) per DS point for MnS training, and 96 MTP (or 192 PTP) per DS point for MjS training. (And if you're between 2x-3x spells, you WILL be converting some PTPs to MTPs.)
Against THOSE numbers, 20/20 for dodging doesn't even look that bad -- it's +1 DS per rank in stance def, +0.75 DS in stance off. (Though reduced by encumbrance.) And if your TPs are staying nearly balanced (which might be possible/good for a more physical character), it's definitely more efficient than converting lots of PTPs to MTPs for extra spells.
If you do brawl (no shield), keeping 0.5x trained in TWC is a pretty good DS boost. Gives you an automatic +15, plus 0.1-0.35 per rank (depending on stance). For 4.5/4.5 per level, this is very TP-efficient compared to a 3rd spell research rank.
Another possibility to consider for the DS is CMAN Combat Movement. First rank is an automatic +2 DS for 40/24 (i.e. 20/12 per DS point), which is better than brawl and more efficient than extra MnS spells, no matter where your PTP/MTP balance is. Additional ranks are 30/18 and 40/24 per DS point, so less efficient, but still not bad compared to a 3x spell research rank, depending on your PTP/MTP balance. And of course, that's not the only perk of CMAN training.
| 3. My wizard is my main so really not interested in bolting as another hunting option, so assume that I will not train in Spell Aim and have those points to use elsewhere. Also means I probably will only single MIU/AS as I don't need the runestave DS. |
Yes. Ignore spell aim.
Another benefit of being a open-handed brawler is two-handed channeling of spells, if you use your warding spells.
Also, not really relevant to you, but... my math shows that on a DS/TP basis (either PTP or MTP), AS and MIU are worth 1x training for runestaff defense alone, more so than a 2x-3x rank of MnS even with 102 running. They are the only magical skills for which this is true, though, and it's not true of 2x training in them.
Hope this helps!
THROGG
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/08/2015 08:20 PM CDT
Brawling & shield is how I went. I do not use UAC as an attack mode, since single training isn't that effective; this training for me is purely defensive. Since there is no runestaff, you cannot be disarmed, nor do you have to worry about AS/MIU adding to runestaff DS. One hand is always open for channeling purposes. The only downside is losing some spell ranks in order to find the TPs for shield/brawling skill, but clerics get the cheapest physical skill costs of any pure, so it's not that bad in the end.
That having been said, I actually capped my cleric with training in brawling, shield, CMan and THWs (that's how cheap weapon skills are for a cleric; my empath couldn't do that). Basically, I would start a combat using shield and empty hand for DS, bind an enemy, then stow the shield and pull out my maul and whack it. Post cap, I decided this was pretty awkward and dropped the THW skill in favor of more spells.
Using a weapon as a cleric is more a style/RP thing. If I had to rate caster professions as far as suitability for weapon use, I'd put mages first (e-wave + haste), then empaths (high weapon AS), then clerics as third. Sorcerers come in a distant fourth. We're still waiting to see how the haste changes will affect warmages, but for now that ranking is still valid, IMO.
That having been said, I actually capped my cleric with training in brawling, shield, CMan and THWs (that's how cheap weapon skills are for a cleric; my empath couldn't do that). Basically, I would start a combat using shield and empty hand for DS, bind an enemy, then stow the shield and pull out my maul and whack it. Post cap, I decided this was pretty awkward and dropped the THW skill in favor of more spells.
Using a weapon as a cleric is more a style/RP thing. If I had to rate caster professions as far as suitability for weapon use, I'd put mages first (e-wave + haste), then empaths (high weapon AS), then clerics as third. Sorcerers come in a distant fourth. We're still waiting to see how the haste changes will affect warmages, but for now that ranking is still valid, IMO.
LALAKERCLAN
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/08/2015 10:34 PM CDT
Thanks very much for all the responses!
Another question: at what point do you guys think it makes sense to invest points into lores to add AS via Heroism? Once you have 27 ranks in cleric spells and maxed 307? or would points be better spent on CM?
I definitely plan on casting lots of spells -- we have access to so many different amazing disablers (it seems to me...experience will tell) -- and then whack something. I hadn't thought about using a two-hander because I figured RT would be too high with a dwarf. Would you still recommend that over shield/OHB?
Another question: at what point do you guys think it makes sense to invest points into lores to add AS via Heroism? Once you have 27 ranks in cleric spells and maxed 307? or would points be better spent on CM?
I definitely plan on casting lots of spells -- we have access to so many different amazing disablers (it seems to me...experience will tell) -- and then whack something. I hadn't thought about using a two-hander because I figured RT would be too high with a dwarf. Would you still recommend that over shield/OHB?
THROGG
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/08/2015 11:55 PM CDT
Hmm, depends on your agi/dex. I wasn't using a claidh, which is slow. I wanted a high enchant weapon to maximize my AS, so I got a 7x perfect maul.
You can check out your RT easily enough; grab a TWH and see what your RT is using it. Or a polearm, although you probably aren't going to swing a lance in 5 seconds.
The thing is, one handed weapons don't do as much damage. If you are going to use an admittedly less efficient means of combat, you want to minimize the time you are vulnerable to a counterattack. Killing the foe in 3 swings instead of 5-6 helps with that.
You can check out your RT easily enough; grab a TWH and see what your RT is using it. Or a polearm, although you probably aren't going to swing a lance in 5 seconds.
The thing is, one handed weapons don't do as much damage. If you are going to use an admittedly less efficient means of combat, you want to minimize the time you are vulnerable to a counterattack. Killing the foe in 3 swings instead of 5-6 helps with that.
RATHBONER
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/09/2015 06:33 AM CDT
>I hadn't thought about using a two-hander because I figured RT would be too high with a dwarf. Would you still recommend that over shield/OHB?
My original (and the one I've taken to the highest level) cleric is a THW dwarf. I found 8s base weapons usable at low level but somewhere around level 20-30 I switched to 7s ones. Past that point I wasn't comfortable with the 7s swing time (just 1 off from AGIDEX) that I was getting.
I reckon that if using a 1 handed weapon you should be aiming it, and thats not going to happen for a cleric till quite a high level. If swinging randomly, I should do heavy damage when I hit and that means a THW.
>Another question: at what point do you guys think it makes sense to invest points into lores to add AS via Heroism? Once you have 27 ranks in cleric spells and maxed 307? or would points be better spent on CM?
10 ranks lore or 2 ranks CM give 1 AS. 60 MTP or 20/12 which at the margin is the equivalent of 22 MTP. Unless your main reason for getting blessing lore is something else, it doesn't pay to train it until you have maxxed CMan.
...
>Also, not really relevant to you, but... my math shows that on a DS/TP basis (either PTP or MTP), AS and MIU are worth 1x training for runestaff defense alone, more so than a 2x-3x rank of MnS even with 102 running.
You need 10 or 20 ranks of AS (the more you have already the more you need) to get the equivalent of 1 rank THW which gives 0.3 DS in offensive stance (and for this marginal DS its offensive stance thats the relevant stance, you are already covered in defensive/guarded)
Thats 67 or 133 MTP per DS, compared to 32 MTP per DS from training extra MnS spell ranks.
You'll want 102 stopped when swinging, but now that it can be stopped at will its a viable tactic to have it up till the foe is disabled and then stop it. One cast per swing is probably too expensive in mana, but one cast per combat isn't. I reckon both dodge and 3x spells are too expensive for a swinger though, so its a moot point what's best to spend non-existent TPs on.
My original (and the one I've taken to the highest level) cleric is a THW dwarf. I found 8s base weapons usable at low level but somewhere around level 20-30 I switched to 7s ones. Past that point I wasn't comfortable with the 7s swing time (just 1 off from AGIDEX) that I was getting.
I reckon that if using a 1 handed weapon you should be aiming it, and thats not going to happen for a cleric till quite a high level. If swinging randomly, I should do heavy damage when I hit and that means a THW.
>Another question: at what point do you guys think it makes sense to invest points into lores to add AS via Heroism? Once you have 27 ranks in cleric spells and maxed 307? or would points be better spent on CM?
10 ranks lore or 2 ranks CM give 1 AS. 60 MTP or 20/12 which at the margin is the equivalent of 22 MTP. Unless your main reason for getting blessing lore is something else, it doesn't pay to train it until you have maxxed CMan.
...
>Also, not really relevant to you, but... my math shows that on a DS/TP basis (either PTP or MTP), AS and MIU are worth 1x training for runestaff defense alone, more so than a 2x-3x rank of MnS even with 102 running.
You need 10 or 20 ranks of AS (the more you have already the more you need) to get the equivalent of 1 rank THW which gives 0.3 DS in offensive stance (and for this marginal DS its offensive stance thats the relevant stance, you are already covered in defensive/guarded)
Thats 67 or 133 MTP per DS, compared to 32 MTP per DS from training extra MnS spell ranks.
You'll want 102 stopped when swinging, but now that it can be stopped at will its a viable tactic to have it up till the foe is disabled and then stop it. One cast per swing is probably too expensive in mana, but one cast per combat isn't. I reckon both dodge and 3x spells are too expensive for a swinger though, so its a moot point what's best to spend non-existent TPs on.
AMMINAR
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/09/2015 08:57 AM CDT
| >Also, not really relevant to you, but... my math shows that on a DS/TP basis (either PTP or MTP), AS and MIU are worth 1x training for runestaff defense alone, more so than a 2x-3x rank of MnS even with 102 running. |
| You need 10 or 20 ranks of AS (the more you have already the more you need) to get the equivalent of 1 rank THW which gives 0.3 DS in offensive stance (and for this marginal DS its offensive stance thats the relevant stance, you are already covered in defensive/guarded) |
| Thats 67 or 133 MTP per DS, compared to 32 MTP per DS from training extra MnS spell ranks. |
| You'll want 102 stopped when swinging, but now that it can be stopped at will its a viable tactic to have it up till the foe is disabled and then stop it. One cast per swing is probably too expensive in mana, but one cast per combat isn't. I reckon both dodge and 3x spells are too expensive for a swinger though, so its a moot point what's best to spend non-existent TPs on. |
The "20 ranks" is when you have more than 11 ranks/level of magical skills... for example 3x spell research, 2x lore, 2x SMC, 2x harness power, 2x spell aiming. No one has the training points for so many magic ranks pre-cap... MAYBE if you did 2x in cheap skills like AS and MIU you could get there, but that isn't recommended in any case.
I tend to assume runestaff users are in stance guarded for the relevant calculation, in which case it's 22 MTP per DS. I don't think it's correct to assume that you're "already covered" in stance guarded, e.g. if you overhunt, aren't using outside spells, get knocked down, etc... any of which I think are more common than finding yourself in stance offensive with your runestaff out.
RATHBONER
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/09/2015 02:55 PM CDT
>I tend to assume runestaff users are in stance guarded for the relevant calculation, in which case it's 22 MTP per DS. I don't think it's correct to assume that you're "already covered" in stance guarded, e.g. if you overhunt, aren't using outside spells, get knocked down, etc... any of which I think are more common than finding yourself in stance offensive with your runestaff out.
Increased critter AS is the least of your problems if you are overhunting. The main problem is that you are much more likely to find yourself disabled rather than having your defensive DS overtopped by the critter swinging a higher AS. Knockdowns aren't an issue unless I'm stanced too (and stancing is a pretty common outcome from being manoevered) Add in the pseudo stancing effects of ambush and FoF as well, and its not at all unlikely to be stanced with a runestaff out. Then I dont channel if not in offensive, but there are situations where I'll keep hold of my staff while channeling because I want the DS from it.)
With a THW I can have DS issues in defensive but with a runestaff it doesn't happen without some type of stance forcing being involved. If you see archers in your future opponents list, you will struggle for DS with a THW.
>The "20 ranks" is when you have more than 11 ranks/level of magical skills... for example 3x spell research, 2x lore, 2x SMC, 2x harness power, 2x spell aiming. No one has the training points for so many magic ranks pre-cap... MAYBE if you did 2x in cheap skills like AS and MIU you could get there, but that isn't recommended in any case.
People that spread out their training for runestaff ranks get there at low level. People that 3x spells don't till post cap. If you 2x spells but still put your training into magical skills, you'll be there straight from the mangler.
Increased critter AS is the least of your problems if you are overhunting. The main problem is that you are much more likely to find yourself disabled rather than having your defensive DS overtopped by the critter swinging a higher AS. Knockdowns aren't an issue unless I'm stanced too (and stancing is a pretty common outcome from being manoevered) Add in the pseudo stancing effects of ambush and FoF as well, and its not at all unlikely to be stanced with a runestaff out. Then I dont channel if not in offensive, but there are situations where I'll keep hold of my staff while channeling because I want the DS from it.)
With a THW I can have DS issues in defensive but with a runestaff it doesn't happen without some type of stance forcing being involved. If you see archers in your future opponents list, you will struggle for DS with a THW.
>The "20 ranks" is when you have more than 11 ranks/level of magical skills... for example 3x spell research, 2x lore, 2x SMC, 2x harness power, 2x spell aiming. No one has the training points for so many magic ranks pre-cap... MAYBE if you did 2x in cheap skills like AS and MIU you could get there, but that isn't recommended in any case.
People that spread out their training for runestaff ranks get there at low level. People that 3x spells don't till post cap. If you 2x spells but still put your training into magical skills, you'll be there straight from the mangler.
THROGG
Re: New Dwarf Cleric
10/09/2015 05:47 PM CDT
>>With a THW I can have DS issues in defensive but with a runestaff it doesn't happen without some type of stance forcing being involved. If you see archers in your future opponents list, you will struggle for DS with a THW.<<
Ah, precisely the reason I had a shield in play until the foe was disabled; better defense vs bolts/missiles. I also carried a runestaff for those rare occasions when it was indicated. If you want to not bother with brawling and shield at all, consider getting 5 ranks of disarm and switching back and forth between THW and runestaff, as called for by the situation.
Ah, precisely the reason I had a shield in play until the foe was disabled; better defense vs bolts/missiles. I also carried a runestaff for those rare occasions when it was indicated. If you want to not bother with brawling and shield at all, consider getting 5 ranks of disarm and switching back and forth between THW and runestaff, as called for by the situation.
