New Bard, advice please? 02/07/2012 11:41 AM CST
Hi there,

I'm looking for advice on the viability and training of a pure/Fu-ing bard. I'm at a total loss on how to place stats for this kind of build, would it lean more towards mtp or ptp? I'd probably go sword/board in the beginning of the first 30 days with a stat placement to match, and not convert over to brawling until I'd advanced enough to actually use kick.

Any advice on pulling off this kind of build would be appreciated!
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/07/2012 01:49 PM CST
Pretty sure this is a common build. You'll want the air lores necessary to drop your Voln-Fu RT to a minimum. Because you'll be barehanded you can probably forgo Manipulation Lore and simply play a two-handed instrument you've mastered when casting 1030.

I'm sure folks who have done this build can expand on the finer points. I imagine getting dodge ranks will help - especially when combined with 1019 (Song of Mirrors) and Song of Tonis - both of which add phantom dodge ranks and can be combined with wizard Blurs. You'll be like a singing ninja! You might even be able to wear robes to further your dodge bonus- maybe someone could comment on the viability of that as well.

Follow a quick 1030 burst with a few kicks and voila!
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/08/2012 12:08 PM CST
Its very very viable. The build leans heavily on mtp as you'll want to at least 1x harness power, lores (30 air by 35trains, 30 manipulation by 30 trains), and over train in spells. Physically you should try for 2x brawling and I would recommend using a shield (1x minimum 2x would be better) rather than trying to block an attack with a two handed instrument. Also training to use a shield is cheaper than training in dodge and costs no mtp which will be at a premium for you as a pure bard. Get 425 as soon as possible its a huge help to your casting strength.

Archales
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/08/2012 02:29 PM CST
"Get 425 as soon as possible its a huge help to your casting strength." -- Archales

Actually, it's only a help to the tune of about +15CS even working it for all you're worth. (202 Songs known, versus 75 MnE + 127 Songs.) Tinker with the spreadsheet trainer a little to see how it works out, and remember that as a Bard you are not likely to be regularly double-training in Spell Research unless you go really, really heavily down the pure-caster route. (Note that "all that training in Brawling skill" cuts into the points you have available for double-training in Spell Research.)

I don't see anything wrong with learning Targeting/425 at 25th, since it will help with your Brawling AS.

And I never recommend going the pure-casting Bard route before 30th level, since that's the earliest you can learn Disruption/1030.

On the other hand, note that that's 55 spells known in 32 (30 levels + level 0 + pre-training for 31st) possible trainings, or 1.7x in Spell Research. That's a LOT of doubling.

.

What I would suggest is, play around as a brawling Fu'er from levels 25-29, taking advantage of Targeting/425. Do a migration over the course of 29th level so you walk into level 30 with 15 or more ranks of Manipulation [for single-target Disruption/1030] and knowing 30 Songs (you will probably need to un-learn a bunch of Minor Elemental), and then try that out and see how you like being a pure. BE PREPARED for it to be really, really, different from swinging a weapon/Fu'ing for 29 levels.

Then you can decide which one you really want to settle on.

Higher levels/more training points will let you blend the two more closely.
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/08/2012 02:58 PM CST
And if I could suggest general hunting tips.

Get Song of Noise. Hunt arch wights from 17 to 25. They are AMAZINGLY squishy and can do almost nothing with Song of Noise running. Throw Song of Luck and Mirrors in there and you'll be nearly untouchable.

Krakii, Arch, does Song of Kai factor into MB? Does it do the AS=MB conversion? Or does Song of Luck improve the MB "maneuver" score?

Never really been clear on that.
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/08/2012 03:44 PM CST
Let's assume it takes you more than 30 days to reach level 40ish, which is about when you might begin to lean upon 1030 as a primary weapon. Frankly, I'm more of the thought it won't start being truly viable for extended hunts til about 50+. The reason I say assume is because we're going to NOT focus on pure development but upon a brawling/fu build. This build will get you to a level where you begin to fixskill over to a more pure path.

1x Armor
2x Brawl
2x TWC
1+x Dodge (Get as much as possible along with CM)
1+x Combat Maneuvers (see above comment)
1x Physical Fitness
1x Harness Power
1x Spells (401, 1011,406, 1020, 430, 1035) Those are your break points for spells. Looks like level 64 to get those, but you could move 430 to 425 and get 430 after 1035. 1035 is too mana intensive to bother using it before level 55, IMO, other than for brief bits of fun.
30 ranks MMC
20+ ranks MIU or Arcane Symbols whichever you prefer.
40 ranks climb
60-70 ranks of swim (I have 70)
1x Air Lore
18 or 25 ranks of Telepathy lore.
5 ranks MOC ASAP, followed by working toward 30 ranks. Let the warriors go for more, use 1035 at level 60ish to speed swing instead of trying to do the same with MOC.
Whatever else makes you a happy person. If I missed something someone will let me know.

Things we can do with the above build:
TWC with brawling weapons, a fun fast but relatively light attack that is incumbent upon flares crit-killing as much as damage over time. Two troll claws or fist-scythes. Use your sonic in your off hand.

CMAN Twin Hammerfist - get it, live it, love it. After getting rank 4 or 5 of that, adding 2 ranks CMovement (requirement) then getting Side by Side is fun, at least I enjoy it.

Two open hands for Voln-fu. If you are going to fu, fu the way you should.

If you really desire a shield, drop the TWC and add 1.5x shield. If you go this route, get shield bash or sweep to help with mana consumption.

We know voln fu is going to change. We don't know how but let's presume it will still be a viable to very viable hunting path still. Secondly, if you want to go pure, I would not fixskill into it right away, because once done you can only change it with a potion for a year, so think about it. My suggestion would be to drop the Air Lore and Telepathy Lore, moving those points into Manipulation lore. I would gouge the CM and TWC next, giving yourself a bunch of extra spells. I prefer Dodge over Shield, but shield is purely ptp and many pure bards encourage that route (if so go more than 1x shield). Armor, I'd just get 90 ranks and wear augmented chain. Even if you get hindered, you lose no mana and can immediately re-incant. I would not go less than singled in PF, ever. All my pures are singled and they lose nothing but gain much for it.

If you cannot get the wiggle room to 2x TWC from the start, go at least 1.5x while working extra points to get it to 2x as you gain levels.

Hopefully, that covers the first 40 levels (and then some) of your bardic career.

~Galenok
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/08/2012 09:04 PM CST
Thank you all for the advice, it is appreciated!

I'm assuming since this will be a mtp heavy build down the road, I should really look at maxing mental stats at level 100 then? I really don't want to rely on the idea of 'oh I'll just buy/earn a fixstat down the road'. I think it would be eons before I hit cap, to be honest.

>>BE PREPARED for it to be really, really, different from swinging a weapon/Fu'ing for 29 levels.<<

This part isn't going to phase me. It's going to be more difficult for me to actually wrap my head around playing a martial character. I've only played pures before of various varieties before. I won't know what to do with all that AS!

Galenok, I might give the TWC a try, if I want to kick vs undead, I can just go ahead and grab a shield for the extra protection, yes?

Definitely a lot of things to think about, thanks everyone!
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/09/2012 06:48 AM CST
Yes, you can always grab a shield. One reason I suggested TWC is because with the right spells you won't lose DS without a shield, even to bolts, and the amount of offensive power you gain is quite significant. I would go with a dextrous race, though, for that build. A full elf, halfling, even a half-krolvin or erithian would be superior early on with this build over a half elf, human or giantman. The reason is that in order to use two weapons quickly you need a bunch of AGI/DEX. The concept early game of being concerned with DS is solved by stance dancing and outside spells. There's really very little reason to ever hunt without your base spirit spells, bardsongs, minor elemental, colors and/or blurs (except maybe RR or Solhaven, if you play early). In my opinion, with any TWC build, getting resist elements (602) is important, because of the bolt DS it grants it counters the loss of a shield. It is simply a matter of being friendly and asking nicely for those spells. I've never turned someone down who was kind about it, often I'll even log in my wizard to add those.

You get the most martial brawl (MB) with nothing in your hands, by several points, and you can use voln throw with nothing in your hands. Most fuers tend to forget about throw and it's value is underrated.

~Galenok
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/09/2012 10:09 AM CST
I think your racial advice is way out.

Races by AGIDEX. Krolvin and Erithian are low, not high. Half-elfs are high not low.

Halflings +25, but pay for it in STR -15 and INF -5. The high AGI bonus makes them fairly easy to train to walk around empty handed and self spelled. Poor STR means permanent struggles against encumberance.
Burghals +20, a slightly more LOGical and less DEXtrous halfling. You takes your +1 exp per pulse or your extra MB and elemental defense.
Elf +20, the obvious choice for a fu bard. Bonuses where it matters and penalties where it doesn't.
Other elfs, gnomes and aeletoi +15, not too far short of the full elf if they have something you want going for them.

I'd want something pretty good by way of compensation to go with any of the others.
Krolvin +5 Extra AS but slower, lower MB/DS and ugly. Might be worth it for a CoL TWC bard, but I wouldn't touch them for a fu bard
Human, Erithian 0,
Dwarf -5
Giant -10,
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/09/2012 10:35 AM CST
You should decide whether you want to be primarily a Caster (who happens to be able to Fu) or primarily a Fu'er (who happens to be a competent caster). Decide on your race from there.

I would basically never take a Halfling, just from the encumbrance standpoint. I would consider an Erithian, but then work to offset the encumbrance issue. Elf you can at least pretend to be able to carry something. :)
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/09/2012 12:57 PM CST
As far as race is concerned, I'm looking at the choice fron an RP standpoint, rather than mechanical. Right now it's between human and half-elf (leaning towards human), simply because those are the only two races that fit with the character concept I have in mind.

With my love of pures, I think I'm leaning more towards a caster who is able to fu, rather than a character that's fu-centric with casting secondary.
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/09/2012 02:00 PM CST
Half-krol make decent TWC users because of the +5 AGI and +10 STR/CON. The -5 to INF hurts a bard, true, but I've seen many successful bards take non-traditional races and make it work. Some of my suggestion was to get away from the standard fare that Gemstone sees, and certainly sees in its bards. Human and Half-elven bards are common. Half-krol and Erithian bards, not so much. Erithians while weak, will make a decent to good pure bard. HK make fine warriorly bards without suffering terribly as a pure. Elves sort of win for speed and casting. I was just trying to suggest races that weren't a stretch but are not common either.

This is not to discourage the OP. Merely an explanation for Rathboner.

~Galenok
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/10/2012 02:44 AM CST
>We know voln fu is going to change. We don't know how but let's presume it will still be a viable to very viable hunting path still.

To be very clear, Voln Fu goes away entirely. Unarmed Combat will take its place and will indeed be perfectly viable, but it won't be the same as Fu. I would not personally suggest making any long-term plans based around the mechanics of Fu.
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/10/2012 06:33 PM CST
~facepalms~

Maybe you should just go sword and shield.

My suggestions hold true. We're getting a new form of unarmed combat, it'll either suck or it won't, and you can kill things with your hands...maybe...if Finros lets it happen for folks other than monks.

~Galenok
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Re: New Bard, advice please? 02/11/2012 02:24 AM CST
>My suggestions hold true. We're getting a new form of unarmed combat, it'll either suck or it won't, and you can kill things with your hands...maybe...if Finros lets it happen for folks other than monks.

Everyone will be able to use unarmed combat (assuming proper training for it, at least).
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