I'm to the point I've got to decide where to start putting extra training points (all physical). What would be the actual play benefit of raising Perception from 0.5x to 1x and for raising First Aid from 2x to 3x be? I've read the Krakiipedia pages on both.

Perception is said to help with a lot of things, in a worthwhile way or amount?

First Aid training is said to reduce herb use RT, does taking it to 3x give a significant improvement? It is said to reduce the TENDING RT. Will going to 3x reduce those asinine RT numbers enough so that tending one of two bleeders isn't suicide by RT from the other bleeder? Will it give a decent improvement in getting better quality hides from skinning?

I'm currently moving training points from Arcane Symbols and Magic Item use. I'm taking them from 1x to 0.5x and have finished increasing Physical Fitness to 2x, am taking Telepathy up to 20, and am going to keep that Lore Group at 1x training Telepathy for the Empathic Assault & Empathy spells.

Current Skills at level 68 are:

Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 240 140
Arcane Symbols.....................| 149 49
Magic Item Use.....................| 159 59
Spell Aiming.......................| 240 140
Harness Power......................| 240 140
Elemental Mana Control.............| 90 20
Spirit Mana Control................| 170 70
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 170 70
Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 58 12
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 152 52
Survival...........................| 170 70
Perception.........................| 132 36
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 25 5
First Aid..........................| 240 140

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 25

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 89

Tanivar's main occupation will return to playing town healer more once I get to where some characters I'd like to hunt with
can join in bounties Tanivar has, within 5 levels I believe. Just went through a brief burnout period on power hunting, should of gotten level 68 last Friday instead of around an hour ago, but this power hunting scene just isn't as fun as laid back play is.

Where skill change suggestions are concerned, what I want Tanivar to be capable of doing is fast, efficient healing in TSC and when in deep puppychow out with a group hunting where Bad Things (tm) play. The Elemental Mana Control will be kept since I tend to send manna to other casters once Tanivar's mind is full and I only need to maintain that full mind and have a little manna handy for healing. I also tend to send manna to anyone casting defensive spells on others, something I'm very game to help with since I've long experience with needing such magic. I plan on adding Skinning and Foraging to Tanivar's Service Show listings but I want to buff those two abilities up a bit first. I'm really happy with the current skill set so I'm not likely to make major skill changes. Minor ones with distinct benefits are doable possibilities.



Tanivar Somakre

"Healing, you want it, you shall have it."

I can say from personal experience that triple training in first aid is really not that much of a benefit over doubling. Sure, it helps with herb RT, but your spells at this point are much faster and you've got the mana reserves to be able to use them in the field. Just keep yourself to healing just enough so that you're able to fight, skin and absorb experience without penalty. Perception I only had 30 ranks and only after I've filled out some things at cap do I intend to bring it higher. Honestly, what I'd recommend is looking at sinking excess points into spell ranks. I'd also suggest at least looking into mental mana control for the runestaff defense ranks, mana regen and MANA verb utilities. You'll also eventually want to raise swimming up to 50-ish ranks for Nelemar.

Gretchen

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<Get yourself enough trading that you can readily appraise your skins before putting anything extra in skinning skills. You probably have them maxxed out for quality benefit but the only way to be sure is to check the quality you are getting. Maybe 5-10 ranks.

I can appraise them now and get an occasional non-default response. Are these appraisals accurate if it's not the default response?

<For better foraging get items/scrolls with the Ranger spell (and Haste). More survival and perception will improve it slowly but thats the only quick boost you can get.

I don't think I'll raise Survival past 1x. Perception has more promise of giving benefits I suspect.

<Eating RT is reducible to sensible levels. I don't think tending RT is.

<RATHBONER

The Tending RT was the big thing. I rarely use it other than as the absolute last chance at not bleeding out. Maybe once every decade or so <rolls eyes> :) Don't recall ever trying it on a patient to see if the RTs are as bad that way.

---

<Honestly, what I'd recommend is looking at sinking excess points into spell ranks.

I've considered this but have no real interest in the spells I would get. Call Lightning for opening chests is Russian Roulette thanks to the Gylph traps, dead at least every other batch of boxes. Symbol of Return can cover for Spirit Guide, Wall of Force has an awful short duration and often wouldn't last through killing a monster due to the CS attack spell failure rate. The Abolition one might be handy later on. Spirit Slayer doesn't sound all that worthwhile.

There is that +1 ds every two or three spell ranks but that ds gain is fairly pricy that way.

<I'd also suggest at least looking into mental mana control for the runestaff defense ranks, mana regen and MANA verb utilities.

I did some Skill Goal changes and am going to add 20 ranks of Mental Mana Control. it is a pretty cheap magic rank for runestaff ds and will let me send to Monks who have only trained to send and receive mental manna. I've only ran into one once who no one could send to but the ability would be there should I run into another Monk who needs manna and only has the mental sending trained.

Another one point of manna every couple of minutes... <shrug>.

Might be enough to get the Mana Verb defense spell casting to work. The 70 Spirit and 20 Elemental hasn't done it. Must be a heck of a handicap from Airwall.


<You'll also eventually want to raise swimming up to 50-ish ranks for Nelemar.

About what training will I need it?

<Gretchen

---

I re-adjusted my Skill Goals and will continue to work on getting Telepathy Lore increased until that lore group is 1x. I'll also work at getting Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use back to 1x for runestaff ds. FoF is getting me torn up when it drops my ds.

I'll let any extra training points pile up and save them for a future bright idea or the increased swimming.

Kind of nice getting to this point where training points are concerned. Nice change. :)



Tanivar Somakre

"Healing, you want it, you shall have it."

It looks like you bolt b/c you train in spell aim, but if you use any CS-based spells you will want spell ranks for the offense.

>> Call Lightning for opening chests is Russian Roulette thanks to the Gylph traps, dead at least every other batch of boxes. Symbol of Return can cover for Spirit Guide, Wall of Force has an awful short duration and often wouldn't last through killing a monster due to the CS attack spell failure rate. The Abolition one might be handy later on. Spirit Slayer doesn't sound all that worthwhile.<<


You will seriously want 130 later on; there are times later on when you won't be able to find decent level undead to hunt, and keeping favor up may get to be a problem. Also, it's on the way to getting 140. WoF is expensive, true, but also extremely useful when fogging into dangerous situations on rescues (snatch and fog), especially during invasion scenarios.

I must confess, Spirit slayer I rarely use, but again, it does come into play during invasions, when the bigger nasties have high TDs.

Why in Charl's name would an empath want to tend anybody's wounds once they get to the point where they can take them? OK, I suppose if you are with a group that's in immediate combat you might want to not lose an arm or leg in mid battle, but you can keep a wounded comrade alive by just restoring health. If for some odd reason it becomes a chronic issue, go to Teras and grab some dwarven healing ales.

>>I'll also work at getting Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use back to 1x for runestaff ds. FoF is getting me torn up when it drops my ds.<<

Generally speaking, getting more spell ranks is a more cost efficient use of TPs to get better physical DS, since this also aids your CS based attacks. Also, have you looked into getting some ranks in MOC? Will help with FoF issues as well as your ball spell (spirit fire) attacks. And, of course, get a higher enchant runestaff, when you can afford it. Also, a shot or two of Sympathy will relieve the problem for a couple of rounds while the critters whack each other instead of you. Oh wait; that's a CS based spell! Hmm, all the more reason to increase your spell ranks ;)

"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."

<You will seriously want 130 later on; there are times later on when you won't be able to find decent level undead to hunt, and <keeping favor up may get to be a problem. Also, it's on the way to getting 140.

Lack of decent Undead at levels to come would make using Symbol of Return a problem. Tan's favor has been holding at 550 spins of the Globe for months but had been 600 spins back in the winter. I'll have to slide 130 into my training priority list somewhere.


<WoF is expensive, true, but also extremely useful when fogging into dangerous situations on rescues (snatch and fog), <especially during invasion scenarios.

I currently have a Spirit Fog macro set up which gives me 30 seconds concealment when fogging in for a rescue. Usually works for keeping me out of trouble.

<Why in Charl's name would an empath want to tend anybody's wounds once they get to the point where they can take them?

I don't think I have ever tended a patient. Having no mana, both 1150s used, a level three wound in a certain spot and having a dieing patient with a wound in that spot I'd try it. It sits at the very bottom of the list of options. That Tending RT is suicidal for a bleeding Healer.


< Also, have you looked into getting some ranks in MOC? Will help with FoF issues as well as your ball spell (spirit fire) attacks.

I give it thought quite often. Just not sure I want to put the 350 training points into it for the 2 opponents same as one ability until later on.


<And, of course, get a higher enchant runestaff, when you can afford it.

I usually carry a +25 Illthorn runestaff. A +20 Faewood one if going where your made to drop weapons.

Got something like 9 million silver so far. A bit of a pauper in these lands. :)


<Also, a shot or two of Sympathy will relieve the problem for a couple of rounds while the critters whack each other instead of you. Oh wait; that's a CS based spell! Hmm, all the more reason to increase your spell ranks ;)

Not sure I can really train past 2x in spells very well. Got most of my training points accounted for each level now.

---

<If you are suffering due to FoF, getting DS via runestaff is the worst way to do it. Getting those AS and MIU ranks to use more <outside spells is fine but its wasted TPs if you are using it for runestaff DS. FoF works off the difference between offensive and <defensive stance DS. This is the same for spells but very different for staff DS. Runestaff DS is shredded by FoF, spell DS isn't <touched by it.

Krakiipedia gives it has a straight 25% loss of ds per additional opponent. What site gives the additional info about FoF and runestaves? Might explain more on other things as well. :)



Tanivar Somakre

"Healing, you want it, you shall have it."

>>Krakiipedia gives it has a straight 25% loss of ds per additional opponent. What site gives the additional info about FoF and runestaves? Might explain more on other things as well. :)<<

I believe Rathboner's point is this: while runestaff DS is based on magical skill ranks rather than THW skill training, it is still a parry based defense. As such, it is affected by FoF, while DS from spells is not. It pushes you into higher stances as its first effect, then continues from there. I sort of said the same thing, although I didn't explain it that clearly. Here is the pertinent Documentation from the GS4 Combat Guide.

>>Force on Force

Force on Force is a system that comes into play when a single character engages multiple opponents in the same room. Each same-level foe that attacks in short succession after the first will lower the character's stance by approximately one full level. Once the character's stance is pushed all the way down to stance offensive, Force on Force will begin eroding the character's defensive strength and ability to Evade, Block, and Parry.

Training in Multi-Opponent Combat can offset the negative effects of Force on Force. 10 ranks will remove one opponent from consideration in stance reduction, followed by one more foe at 25 and 45 ranks. One foe more is ignored every 25 ranks afterward.

There is a short grace period upon entering a room, during which a character will not be affected by Force on Force.<<

I do have a clarification question for Rathboner, however. If I am hunting in offensive stance (or any stance, for that matter) with both hands empty, and have no brawling skill, will FoF have any effect, since all of my DS is spell based?

>>I'll be honest, I never saw the need for MOC until I capped <<

Oh I have to disagree here; I got 30 ranks of MOC some time before cap, so I could get a double tap with my ever so wonderful flail. :)

Well, ok, so Guenn is a mutant; but it sort of renders FoF questions irrelevant unless the swarm is quite out of control. And Sympathy will remove half a dozen foes from the FoF equation. If a swarm is THAT massive that FoF still becomes a problem (and I have seen some swarms that were ... greater Vruul rooms can have 20 or so critters if you wander in at the wrong time) it's time to make a strategic withdrawal. AKA, run like a bunny.

"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male"

>I do have a clarification question for Rathboner, however. If I am hunting in offensive stance (or any stance, for that matter) with both hands empty, and have no brawling skill, will FoF have any effect, since all of my DS is spell based?

Everyone gets a flat 50 DS in defensive dropping to 0 in offensive. In melee situations you should always be taking FoF based off that 50 difference even if you managed to avoid any skill based stance dependent DS. In ranged situations that DS is buggy, and I'd have to see a test to know what was happening.

I added ten ranks of Mental Mana Control to Tanovar's 70 Spirit and 20 Elemental Mana Control and the Mana verb spellup now works.

Starting for 130 as of this coming weekends (69th) training. I'm going to stop double training Harness Power for 4 more manna per level and just take the two I'll get from past training, and stop training Survival. This will cover the cost of a second spell per level and still leave me the stray points I normally have to use for another double cost spell or whatever.

What of the idea of going pure CS caster and dropping Spell Aiming? I'd lose Fire Spirit, Empathic Assault, and wand use from my combat options, but could add a serious number of spells for more CS. Would doing this chomp me on the sitter somehow now or down the line?




Tanivar Somakre

"Healing, you want it, you shall have it."

<<What of the idea of going pure CS caster and dropping Spell Aiming? I'd lose Fire Spirit, Empathic Assault, and wand use from my combat options, but could add a serious number of spells for more CS. Would doing this chomp me on the sitter somehow now or down the line?>>

Going pure CS is an option, and some choose that so they can have the strongest bone shatter possible. However, it's not necessary to go pure CS to be an effective hunter. My caster empath was slinging bolts and CS spells from day 1 and she's always been a viable character. In addition, giving up spell aim would also deprive you of web bolt, which is your single most effective disabling spell if you've trained in summoning lore. Since you mentioned having issues with FoF, web bolt would be one of the most valuable spells you have aside from bone shatter.

Gretchen

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<<Calm is a great and cheap crowd control spell (yes not everything keeps calm). Bind works as well. There are fine CS-based disablers.>>

Calm and bind are on the major spirit list, so a caster's CS is naturally not going to be as high as if they were empath circle CS spells. On top of that, calm drops as soon as the target is attacked by any target and might not negate a good portion of the target's defense like web bolt. Bind is much more mana intensive than web bolt and doesn't do any damage with the potential to knock an opponent prone like web bolt will.

You mentioned that some critters can break out of calm. This is true, as well as some that can break out of a bind and webbing. That much requires the caster to pay attention.

Gretchen

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<<Calm is a great and cheap crowd control spell (yes not everything keeps calm). Bind works as well. There are fine CS-based disablers.

I also use 110, Unbalance, quite frequently....as a ranger. I find it HIGHLY effective.

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq