All,
Has anyone done any testing on how often shield bash forces a stance, and how much of a stance change?
For a follow-up: what is a 'minor' shield bash, referenced by shield strike and shield strike mastery?
I've been playing with shield strike against casters in warcamps, and either they come in stanced offensive a lot more than I remember, or shield strike is doing a good job of stancing them. If shield bash forces a stance reliably with a good hit, I'd consider dropping feint and using sbash instead.
Yes, sbash costs double the stamina, but I'm okay with that.
Thanks,
Morden, player of.
STUDTMANNJ
GRYPES
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/14/2013 09:45 PM CDT
I've been playing with shield strike against casters in warcamps, and either they come in stanced offensive a lot more than I remember, or shield strike is doing a good job of stancing them. If shield bash forces a stance reliably with a good hit, I'd consider dropping feint and using sbash instead.
Yes, sbash costs double the stamina, but I'm okay with that.
Thanks,
Morden, player of.
When I was a sword/shield build I never needed feint. Shield bash was all I ever needed in most situations to do the job as it knocks down, forces stance, and usually stuns.
However, there are some things that are immune or really difficult to shield bash (four legged creatures come to mind), whereas I haven't met anything that's completely immune to feint (though destroyers and crusaders come close). I'd say if you're looking at spending the next several months/years in areas that are sbash friendly, drop feint. If not, keep some ranks in it.
Dgry
Yes, sbash costs double the stamina, but I'm okay with that.
Thanks,
Morden, player of.
When I was a sword/shield build I never needed feint. Shield bash was all I ever needed in most situations to do the job as it knocks down, forces stance, and usually stuns.
However, there are some things that are immune or really difficult to shield bash (four legged creatures come to mind), whereas I haven't met anything that's completely immune to feint (though destroyers and crusaders come close). I'd say if you're looking at spending the next several months/years in areas that are sbash friendly, drop feint. If not, keep some ranks in it.
Dgry
STUDTMANNJ
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/14/2013 10:10 PM CDT
I remember crusaders being difficult to feint, but I believe they're also difficult to sbash, as they're dark paladins and have all the skills I do.
Anything with four legs I can think of is not a caster, and it's the casters I want to feint to get out of guarded.
Also FWIW: as a dwarf, I know there's a height penalty to shield bashing creatures taller than you. I may try a few grimswarm giant camps and see how effective it is against those casters.
I haven't been back to Nelemar since the shield maneuvers were released, as I've been busy mastering Sunfist. Will give sbash a whirl there in lieue of feint... but it occurs to me that sentries are noncorporeal, so I think immune to sbash.
Morden, player of
Anything with four legs I can think of is not a caster, and it's the casters I want to feint to get out of guarded.
Also FWIW: as a dwarf, I know there's a height penalty to shield bashing creatures taller than you. I may try a few grimswarm giant camps and see how effective it is against those casters.
I haven't been back to Nelemar since the shield maneuvers were released, as I've been busy mastering Sunfist. Will give sbash a whirl there in lieue of feint... but it occurs to me that sentries are noncorporeal, so I think immune to sbash.
Morden, player of
ARCHIGEEK
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/14/2013 11:31 PM CDT
Trample with Trample Mastery is highly effective. It's hard to beat knocking down 5 at a time.
I've been playing around with Forward. If the positive effect of Forward lasted longer than 15 seconds I'd probably keep it. It's a nice defensive bonus at no cost other than activating an offensive shield maneuver, but if you're trample is successful, you've probably knocked down everything in the room, so the likelyhood of being short on DS is minimal. I can see the value if you are going to use bash or trample as a setup every single time, but short of that, the 15 second duration makes spending the point questionable. Choices choices.
Kerl
I've been playing around with Forward. If the positive effect of Forward lasted longer than 15 seconds I'd probably keep it. It's a nice defensive bonus at no cost other than activating an offensive shield maneuver, but if you're trample is successful, you've probably knocked down everything in the room, so the likelyhood of being short on DS is minimal. I can see the value if you are going to use bash or trample as a setup every single time, but short of that, the 15 second duration makes spending the point questionable. Choices choices.
Kerl
STUDTMANNJ
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/15/2013 01:11 AM CDT
>Trample with Trample Mastery is highly effective. It's hard to beat knocking down 5 at a time.
No choice available. <-- Paladin
Congrats on the nice knockdown, though.
No choice available. <-- Paladin
Congrats on the nice knockdown, though.
KITHUS
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/15/2013 08:02 AM CDT
| No choice available. <-- Paladin |
| Congrats on the nice knockdown, though. |
If only paladins had spells that forced multiple targets to kneel...
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
ATTENTION: Monks were only designed to reach level 39. Please check into the nearest Inn and choose the retire option immediately before you break the game completely!
ZENDADA
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/15/2013 08:11 AM CDT
Paladin here with 3 ranks of feint, 5 ranks of bash, and 5 ranks of strike.
I find feint more usable and more effective than either bash or strike on most everything in the Rift. But if bash works I use strike or bash depending on if I need to have 117 ready.
Chad, player of a few
I find feint more usable and more effective than either bash or strike on most everything in the Rift. But if bash works I use strike or bash depending on if I need to have 117 ready.
Chad, player of a few
ZIZZLE-ZEARL
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/15/2013 08:32 AM CDT
Trample with Trample Mastery is highly effective. It's hard to beat knocking down 5 at a time.
I've been playing around with Forward. If the positive effect of Forward lasted longer than 15 seconds I'd probably keep it. It's a nice defensive bonus at no cost other than activating an offensive shield maneuver, but if you're trample is successful, you've probably knocked down everything in the room, so the likelyhood of being short on DS is minimal. I can see the value if you are going to use bash or trample as a setup every single time, but short of that, the 15 second duration makes spending the point questionable. Choices choices.
Kerl
Although I only have a level 21 warrior, I went the trample route, with shield charge. About rank 2 or so in each. I shield trample if there are more than one in the room otherwise I shield charge to bowl them over first. Really makes my giantman warrior fun to play.
--Zizzle
I've been playing around with Forward. If the positive effect of Forward lasted longer than 15 seconds I'd probably keep it. It's a nice defensive bonus at no cost other than activating an offensive shield maneuver, but if you're trample is successful, you've probably knocked down everything in the room, so the likelyhood of being short on DS is minimal. I can see the value if you are going to use bash or trample as a setup every single time, but short of that, the 15 second duration makes spending the point questionable. Choices choices.
Kerl
Although I only have a level 21 warrior, I went the trample route, with shield charge. About rank 2 or so in each. I shield trample if there are more than one in the room otherwise I shield charge to bowl them over first. Really makes my giantman warrior fun to play.
--Zizzle
STUDTMANNJ
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/15/2013 10:35 AM CDT
>If only paladins had spells that forced multiple targets to kneel...
Messaging for trample is way cooler and looks to be a lot more fun.
Fun is important :)
Mechanically, 1630 only hits 3 creatures without lore, only a 35% base to kneel (damage is primary, kneel is secondary), knockdown has more of a DS loss than kneeling, and affects the shroud in warcamps darn quickly. Oh, and it's not group friendly.
Don't get me wrong, I use it a lot (outside of a warcamp), and if I'm casting, will use it if there are two creatures in a room as an attack spell. It's also fun with bandits if I risk a cast where others may be running through to kneel and then open mstrike, but... there are a lot of limits. With the non group friendly aspect, I use it more than I should, and have occasionally tagged someone else (bandit groups on Teras, for example)
Congrats on trample, though, and I do mean that sincerely. I don't begrudge any class for getting cool toys. If I ever get a bazillion extra TPs on my warrior, I'd learn shield just for this... but as a TWC brawler, and a halfling, I doubt that'll happen.. unless there's trample messaging for vaulting onto a creature and trampling their head in while jumping to another.
Morden, player of.
Messaging for trample is way cooler and looks to be a lot more fun.
Fun is important :)
Mechanically, 1630 only hits 3 creatures without lore, only a 35% base to kneel (damage is primary, kneel is secondary), knockdown has more of a DS loss than kneeling, and affects the shroud in warcamps darn quickly. Oh, and it's not group friendly.
Don't get me wrong, I use it a lot (outside of a warcamp), and if I'm casting, will use it if there are two creatures in a room as an attack spell. It's also fun with bandits if I risk a cast where others may be running through to kneel and then open mstrike, but... there are a lot of limits. With the non group friendly aspect, I use it more than I should, and have occasionally tagged someone else (bandit groups on Teras, for example)
Congrats on trample, though, and I do mean that sincerely. I don't begrudge any class for getting cool toys. If I ever get a bazillion extra TPs on my warrior, I'd learn shield just for this... but as a TWC brawler, and a halfling, I doubt that'll happen.. unless there's trample messaging for vaulting onto a creature and trampling their head in while jumping to another.
Morden, player of.
KITHUS
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/15/2013 11:32 AM CDT
Don't worry Morden, I play a ranger. We don't get any new cool toys. We're the stealth class that can't pry a single stealth manuver away from rogues.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
ATTENTION: Monks were only designed to reach level 39. Please check into the nearest Inn and choose the retire option immediately before you break the game completely!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
ATTENTION: Monks were only designed to reach level 39. Please check into the nearest Inn and choose the retire option immediately before you break the game completely!
ALUVIUS
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/15/2013 12:10 PM CDT
So how does the size system work, is it a combination of height/weight or just height? Does a giantman get enough of a bonus from these to make up for their horrible agidex? Is a dwarf as bad off as a halfling due to height or does his higher weight compensate like encumbrance?
STUDTMANNJ
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/16/2013 02:32 PM CDT
>So how does the size system work, is it a combination of height/weight or just height? Does a giantman get enough of a bonus from these to make up for their horrible agidex? Is a dwarf as bad off as a halfling due to height or does his higher weight compensate like encumbrance?
I'm not sure, which is why I asked the question myself :)
From the notes on shield bash:
Sbash ranks.
Shield use ranks.
Endroll.
Shield size.
A random roll for damage level, heavily modified by the aforementioned factors.
Basher vs. Target size.
As reminded by another post, I think size modifiers show up as a penalty, vs the others which you see indirectly via the roll to endroll.
My impression... and until last week, hadn't had shield bash in years, is that dwarves are still pretty effective, and that weight (or strength/con bonus) is a factor.
As one of the crits involves a shield bash that flips the target up, over, and landing on their head.. maybe dwarves get a bonus against taller creatures for being stocky. :)
Morden, player of.
I'm not sure, which is why I asked the question myself :)
From the notes on shield bash:
Sbash ranks.
Shield use ranks.
Endroll.
Shield size.
A random roll for damage level, heavily modified by the aforementioned factors.
Basher vs. Target size.
As reminded by another post, I think size modifiers show up as a penalty, vs the others which you see indirectly via the roll to endroll.
My impression... and until last week, hadn't had shield bash in years, is that dwarves are still pretty effective, and that weight (or strength/con bonus) is a factor.
As one of the crits involves a shield bash that flips the target up, over, and landing on their head.. maybe dwarves get a bonus against taller creatures for being stocky. :)
Morden, player of.
WBURKE1
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/16/2013 03:38 PM CDT
I recall, but cannot now find, a GM post explaining that larger shields have a penalty to the hit roll but a bonus to the hidden roll for effect.
THROGG
Re: feint vs shield bash
04/16/2013 07:26 PM CDT
>> Is a dwarf as bad off as a halfling due to height or does his higher weight compensate like encumbrance?<<
Gonna go out on a limb here with a purely speculative answer. I think the dwarf would be better off due to the weight/strength factors. I don't have anyone using shield bash, but I suspect the mechanics might be similar to bull rush. My rather massive (con 100, str 100) giantkin warrior is guite successful with bull rush. Makes sense; a 340 pound giantkin warrior smashing into you would be more effective in knocking you down than a 90 lb halfling.
Best way to check would be to have 2 equally trained/equal level characters (one dwarf, one halfling) both use shield bash on the same critters, and compare end rolls/results.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
Gonna go out on a limb here with a purely speculative answer. I think the dwarf would be better off due to the weight/strength factors. I don't have anyone using shield bash, but I suspect the mechanics might be similar to bull rush. My rather massive (con 100, str 100) giantkin warrior is guite successful with bull rush. Makes sense; a 340 pound giantkin warrior smashing into you would be more effective in knocking you down than a 90 lb halfling.
Best way to check would be to have 2 equally trained/equal level characters (one dwarf, one halfling) both use shield bash on the same critters, and compare end rolls/results.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
