>>So is this additional percentage is on top of the existing shield probability to deflect an arrow? Or is it a second equation so a tower shield now has the already existing first chance of 60% to defect an arrow or bolt, and now your adding a second chance up to a 75% success rate of deflecting the same arrow?

You have to successfully block the bolt first. If you do so, you get a 75% chance to redirect it. This doesn't make anybody better at blocking arrows (though other new abilities might).

Coase & Team:

When Shield Spike Mastery is in use, is there any chance of allowing flares in addition to the spikes?

Given how infrequently you get the attack, I don't think it's a lot to provide for 40 shield ranks to get. I cleared a medium warcamp last night and my logs show 7 reactive hits of 5-30 points each.

With flares, it's worth it just for the cool factor, but I'm a fan of guiding light flares, and dug my sancted/spiked shield out of the locker just to play with this.

Without it... it's rather meh.

A Grimswarm troll guard thrusts with a trident at you!
With extreme effort, you block the attack with your greatshield!
You manage to angle your mithglin greatshield just right so that the troll guard comes perilously close to the spikes on it!

A spike on your mithglin greatshield jabs into the troll guard!
... 10 points of damage!
Strike to right hand breaks a fingernail!
A Grimswarm troll soldier's flesh wounds regenerate quickly.
A Grimswarm troll soldier's abdomen regenerates and looks much better.

Thanks,

Morden, player of.

<I should note, that this opinion comes from someone who plays/ed a ranger extensively.>

I absolutely do! but, I do have others, and some of these are great improvements to them. I still stand with what ive said.

<It's also the most popular, the fastest, and the cheapest form of weaponized combat in the game. It needs no attention. (Barring some minor uptweaks to crossbows.) If it was 'virtually impossible', then why are there so many ranged characters of all level ranges?>

Not correct UAC is now the fastest, and for many the cheapest. The virtually impossible part is, hitting and doing significant damage to a critter or person wearing metal armor above brig, and holding a shield. These improvements that effect ranged weapons. What percentage of creatures use ranged weapons? Maybe 2 or 3 critters, not including the grims. Other then that there improvements toward CVC situations. CVC a ranger with a bow has a very small chance of success as it is now vs a square in plate with a shield. Against grims YES it would aid greatly. But the Grims traditional gain those same skills for themselves and use them against non squares.

<Wall of Thorns doesn't, and shouldn't, protect against every physical attack. Currently it already provides superior protection, and a case could be made that it does TOO much, adding a few new maneuvers isn't going to diminish it's value.>

I should have phrased that better, for the training cost spent by a ranger to get WoT and the lores it takes to be fairly effective its value is greatly dimished if a cman is introduced at 1/3 or less the training cost that WoT doesnt defend at all against, and to quote the docs as I have done before about this spell..

Casting this spell creates a wall of living thorns around the ranger. This wall will provide a +20 Defense Strength (DS) bonus as well as possibly block incoming attacks with the thorns.

The docs have been modified since my last rant on this, so that they don't say all physical attacks any more, So I have to concede that point, however there are a multitude of cmans that are attacks, that are just not effected by the spell. It has been explained to me why because of mechanics, but it doesn't change the fact that every time a new cman is added its one more way around that spell. Plus I am talking about cmans not available to rangers, so there is no train the cman yourself to defend against it.
Id make the same argument for a ranger that was a board an sword, or a bard in how some of these new maneuvers would effect them. Id be fine if there was a cman for rangers that was sidestep- or something like that where semis could train to have a chance to learn to parry or do a defensive spin to avoid things like a shield pin.. but they don't exist.

>Maybe 2 or 3 critters, not including the grims. Other then that there improvements toward CVC situations. CVC a ranger with a bow has a very small chance of success as it is now vs a square in plate with a shield. Against grims YES it would aid greatly. But the Grims traditional gain those same skills for themselves and use them against non squares.>

<I'm sorry. I'll be honest. I'm not sure what you're even talking about here or the point you're seeking to prove.>

I am asking why does there need to be an improvement against Ranged weapons above the already existing benefit a shield offers. I do not think there are that many critters that fire arrows, maybe a handful at best. I don't see a reason to create a Cman to improve a defense that already has a minimum of succeeding 50% of the time against ranged attacks when only a handful of critters fire arrows. I as a semi have nothing now that has a 50% chance of stopping one type of attack just by holding my bow, nor do those using two weapons, uac, two handed weapons, or any other method accept a runestaff for pure casters.

If it is a change that is meant to be for CvC defense. In CvC situations anyone with a bow already has almost no chance against heavy armor and a shield. Why feel the need to make what is already lopsided to the the square even more so.

CvC is never considered when implementing mechanics. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but outside of the justice system, I think that's it.

<CvC is never considered when implementing mechanics. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but outside of the justice system, I think that's it>

exactly!

<The goal of this release is to provide new capabilities to the shield use character builds within the martial classes, so that those character builds can better compete with the powerful twohanded and ranged weapon builds.>

so who are the critters, that are using two handed and ranged builds that squares need to be able to defend against when a shield already ? if its not CVC that is.

A character with 1x shield training and a medium shield will block a like-level foe roughly 5% of the time in stance offensive. A character with 3x shield training and all other factors the same would have roughly a 15% chance to block that same attack.

For Bolt DS, which includes all ranged attacks (arrows, hurled weapons, and bolt spells), the size modifier of your shield is increased by 50%. For example, a wall shield would have a 60% size modifier versus ranged attacks rather than the 40% versus melee attacks

Which critter is so overpowering in using a bow, that a 1x trained in shields needs an additional benefit beyond the existing ones to defend against?

The new shield commands are great. Clunk always likes to play the guard turtle, and it looks like tortoise stance and a few of the other new skills will let him reinforce that turtlish aptitude.


Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)

I am all for most every one of the changes, I dont mean to imply otherwise. I just do not see a reason for a cman created for a hand full of creatures using ranged weapons that has a broader impact on CVC situations or Grimswarms making use of it.

I hate to use this,, but if you want an example comparable.. lets make a cman squares can learn, and only squares, that allows them to stop gremlins and the looting critter, (which far outnumber the ones using ranged weapons) from looting enhansives, weapons, or stealing from bodies. However the side effect is, it also stops thieves from pickpocketing.

Many creatures will randomly throw weapons now, won't they? I imagine it would be useful for creatures who frequently do that type of attack.

As you are quite obviously aware, the few creatures with shields were already probably the most effective at defending against your eye shots. This doesn't really change the equation very much, at least as far as I can tell from my testing, and I doubt there's anyone who can defend with a shield better than I can. The truth is it, didn't change things very much, so I dumped it and tried the next skill.

I just dont seem to be getting what I am saying across, so Ill try once more, and I am done arguing this..


I am not arguing anything related to my abilities to kill or battle creatures. I am asking what creatures out of the odd ones,(of wich bandits are another example to my favor, if bandits now have this cman as one for them to use).

The point of this update was to allow squares to better compete with or against overpowering range attacks. What creatures that are part of the regular hunting system land wide.. NOT ADVGs, not Grimwarm, are so overpowering that a Cman has to be created to defend against there attacks Above the already powerful defense a shield offers. Id rather see a cman for warriors or squares that would help defend against bein looted or robbed or buried by critters (A much greater threat then ranged arrows).

Ok im wrong, I do have one more point to make, and this does NOT include ADVG things like bandits, or Grimswarm

Which towns first have critters that use the ranged system?

Then what age are they, an what hunting area?

I think, although I may be wrong, that 4 towns, don't even have creatures that fire bows, at all, of those that do, I am not sure but right off hand I can think of 3 that the critters are below the age of 30, aside from that, I can think of two capped areas that have em using bows and recent posts on the boards about one of those areas is the critter is ineffective and a not worth hunting cause it offers no exp for capped players. I don't know for sure on Teras, been a while since I've been there.

So how I see it, any changes these new shield moves or cmans offer that increase abilities to defend against ranged weapons, are completely non effective for more then half the towns, only effect creatures below the age of 30 in two more towns, affect one town that finds the creature a bother to hunt, and is generally avoided. This leaving new land wide changes to better defend against ranged weapons to actually relate at best to two towns, and almost as few creatures.

I still ask the same question I started with, WHAT critters are there that are so overpowering that would prompt a land wide change? Especially when almost half the towns dont even have creatures using ranged weapons

<...can't say as I saw it hit anyone with a shield, but I never hunted with people using a shield outside of a capped environment. Also..why are you completely excusing Warcamps and Bandits? Both Grimswarm and Bandits can be found outside of their respective system even if you attempted to avoid both mechanics>

I excluded them first because there classified as uncommon creatures, on a different system then other critters, and are specialized of nature.(that was the answer I got when I asked why some things like cmans are differnt with them, plus my other half of the complaint is they know all the cmans, skills, or otherwise that we do.. I dont like the idea of them using these cmans or shield uses against me.)

<Someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but the CMAN also protects against thrown weaponry, yes? If so, many creatures on the BCS code have been updated to occasionally toss their weapon at you. Ithzir were notorious for doing this (especially scouts), but this was by no means an Ithzir specific script. I could see someone lacking in Bolt/Ranged DS getting tagged with this attack easily. As a matter of fact, I DID see it hit many runestaff users who got careless with their stance. >

yes, but thrown is not exactly ranged, different training skills, and Scouts are the one critter that is fairly effective at a high level, Once again though, with all the enhasives that many wear, and the already big bonus a shield gives not enough? Do we really need cmans across the board to protect against one or two creatures that use ranged , or thrown weapons?

And were not talkin about people with a lack of bold/Ranged defense were talkin about capped warriors, paladins or close to it hunting in OTF, do you think there at that age an not wearing plate? not wearing the best armor an shield they can manage? only hunting at 1x in those skills?

Looks to be a great update and glad it was made. I thought shields needed some love and they got it. Sadly I feel that semis again lose out here. I dont think semi's should have all the great maneuvers but I can't see why they can't have a small subset. its not like you will see a bard or ranger 3x shields so its not going to tip the scales here.

so who are the critters, that are using two handed and ranged builds that squares need to be able to defend against when a shield already ? if its not CVC that is.

A character with 1x shield training and a medium shield will block a like-level foe roughly 5% of the time in stance offensive. A character with 3x shield training and all other factors the same would have roughly a 15% chance to block that same attack.

For Bolt DS, which includes all ranged attacks (arrows, hurled weapons, and bolt spells), the size modifier of your shield is increased by 50%. For example, a wall shield would have a 60% size modifier versus ranged attacks rather than the 40% versus melee attacks

Which critter is so overpowering in using a bow, that a 1x trained in shields needs an additional benefit beyond the existing ones to defend against?

---

You're misreading the above clip - they're actually separate on the website as they should be. The 15% chance refers to your block chance. The 50% size modifier refers to ranged DS and is only a portion of the DS formula.

Dgry

>I suppose it's possible to get 50% or potentially even more to your outright block percentage.
Dough

Yes, but that's entirely different from 'being virtually untouchable to archers due to the instant 50% block advantage a character gets from just picking up a shield and HOLDING it' (I paraphrased that).



-farmer

>>Yes, but that's entirely different
framer

Why yes, yes it is. It's also entirely different that it's only even remotely possible with a warrior.

But -- why quibble. We agree.

Doug

Deflection in a warcamp is insanely fun to use. 3x capped warrior with 3 ranks of block mastery and 1609 giggler orb.

Deflecting a shot where the grim cast 117 before firing at me:

A Grimswarm giant ranger removes a plain wooden arrow from in her quiver.

A Grimswarm giant ranger fires a plain wooden arrow at you!

In the nick of time, you interpose your black mithril pavis between yourself and the missile!

You manage to block with the exact angle needed to deflect the attack toward a Grimswarm giant ranger!

AS: +536 vs DS: +337 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +87 = +310

... and hits for 82 points of damage!

Elbow punctured, oh what pain!

The giant ranger is stunned!

The guiding force leaves a Grimswarm giant ranger.

The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away.

Deflecting a shot that one-shot killed the ranger who fired at me.

You manage to block with the exact angle needed to deflect the attack right back at the giant ranger!

AS: +450 vs DS: +256 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +81 = +298

... and hits for 86 points of damage!

Attack punctures the eye and connects with something really vital!

[You have earned 35 prestige points.]

The giant ranger falls to the ground and dies.

The wall of force disappears from around a Grimswarm giant ranger.

A Grimswarm giant ranger loses a thorny barrier.

A Grimswarm giant ranger seems to lose some internal strength.

The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away.

And deflecting a shot from a ranger towards a grim soldier.

A Grimswarm giant ranger cocks her heavy crossbow and loads it with a wooden heavy crossbow bolt.

A Grimswarm giant ranger fires a wooden heavy crossbow bolt at you!

You skillfully block the missile with your pavis!

You manage to block with the exact angle needed to deflect the attack toward a Grimswarm giant soldier!

AS: +446 vs DS: +253 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +23 = +238

... and hits for 29 points of damage!

Minor puncture to the back.

The heavy crossbow bolt breaks apart and crumbles away.

-Richard/Fjalar.

<Based on this stance, you should be against ANY improvement to ranged. Period. Right?

And yet, strangely, I seem to recall a post by you stating ranged needs help and it's not all that powerful..>

I said I am against any improvement to shield mechanics that improve defense against ranged weapons based on creatures using ranged weapons, that ranged weapons themselves are not as overpowering as they were when first created. That a number of improvements have come to be including enhansive items that greatly effect the balance. I can go back an quote the post myself, but that is the jist of what I was saying, and I think my words were that with all the more recent changes in other areas Ranged could use some attention itself.

Look I think this discussion has kinda of run itself out, the best way I can suggest to find out or form an opinion for yourself is easy.

Go get a almost capped or just capped archer, doesnt have to be a ranger, and get a warrior or paladin of equal age that uses a shield. let them both spell up or use there guild tricks, spells, shouts, anything they want to.. and then let the archer have one shot.. after that the warrior or paladin can do as they wish, I can almost promise you if the archer hits at all, it will be minimal, and unless he can hide before his foe reacts, he wont win the confrontation.

In fact if you really want to test this, have Heldon hall hold a special pitfight in the next few days just to challenge this an make sure its logged.

<<No its not, what is most concerning to me is that bandits and Grimswarms will now have these same Cmans to use against archers. I do not mind that they have whatever systems we have available to them, its there nature. I don't like the idea that those of us that have to hunt the grims and bandits now may have to face a significantly improved defense in them that is implemented over protecting a very small group of squares that already have a significant existing system to defend against Arrows. This change is prompted as a defense against archery from an almost non existing threat from normal hunting area creatures. However I am speaking about one or two of the new cmans, only the ones that effect archery, or thrown weapons. I have nooo issue with the rest.

That is probably not right. Just because a new maneuver is released doesn't mean that creatures automatically will have access to it. Creatures have to be built to use those maneuvers specifically. If the creature is built before the maneuver was released then most likely the creature would have to be specifically adjusted to start using them. I'm not going to say this absolutely won't happen. But I also don't personally see the point in re-coding creature by creature to start using such.

Albeit, the opinion above is from a GM that is NOT a part of the DEV team. So don't take what has been said with 100% certainty. Just my own take of it.


~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er

The biggest thing to me, is that you are freaking out about something that may or may not happen, and creatures are also nowhere near as tough to kill/hit as players are. So trying to compare a capped creature to a capped player is just plain silly.