I've recently returned after 9 years away. I trained my new wizard in magic skills to take advantage of Runestaffs. I feel that my DS is way off. Does anyone have any help on whether weapon and shield is better or worse.
Sulla
SULLA
DOUG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 07:22 AM CST
If I might suggest, you may want to post your stats, training and your results (a creature swinging at you in defensive and offensive) for us to review.
In general, the rule of thumb is stated as 8 magical ranks (spells, Harness Power, lores, Magic Item Use, Arcane Symbols, mana controls, and the like) is supposed to be normal.
In practice, I think what the wizard community has found is that 10 to 12 ranks is much better -- although it can be a small drain on training points in the early years. There are a number of practical reasons for this, including getting more oomph out of your spells.
If you can get 10 magical ranks, and you're wielding a 4x runestaff (don't worry about investing too fast or too much in a greater enchant -- another story), and 4x armor, you should be doing fine when doing the parry tango (stance dancing).
If that's not the case, looking over stats and training may help us pinpoint why.
To answer the weapon / shield question -- if you are going to go that route, the general rule of thumb is .5x shield and 1x weapon (and of course, more shield is more better). Some pure magic classes have been doing .5x shield and 1x brawling -- this is intended to be an offset to the creatures that disarm in combat. While it's useful towards around mid-game to cap, I can't think of a good reason to do so in the early years.
Welcome back!
Doug
In general, the rule of thumb is stated as 8 magical ranks (spells, Harness Power, lores, Magic Item Use, Arcane Symbols, mana controls, and the like) is supposed to be normal.
In practice, I think what the wizard community has found is that 10 to 12 ranks is much better -- although it can be a small drain on training points in the early years. There are a number of practical reasons for this, including getting more oomph out of your spells.
If you can get 10 magical ranks, and you're wielding a 4x runestaff (don't worry about investing too fast or too much in a greater enchant -- another story), and 4x armor, you should be doing fine when doing the parry tango (stance dancing).
If that's not the case, looking over stats and training may help us pinpoint why.
To answer the weapon / shield question -- if you are going to go that route, the general rule of thumb is .5x shield and 1x weapon (and of course, more shield is more better). Some pure magic classes have been doing .5x shield and 1x brawling -- this is intended to be an offset to the creatures that disarm in combat. While it's useful towards around mid-game to cap, I can't think of a good reason to do so in the early years.
Welcome back!
Doug
RATHBONER
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 09:49 AM CST
>In practice, I think what the wizard community has found is that 10 to 12 ranks is much better -- although it can be a small drain on training points in the early years. There are a number of practical reasons for this, including getting more oomph out of your spells.
AGI (and spells) is the key to starting with a decent DS, not runestaff ranks. Cap is a different story.
>If you can get 10 magical ranks, and you're wielding a 4x runestaff (don't worry about investing too fast or too much in a greater enchant -- another story), and 4x armor, you should be doing fine when doing the parry tango (stance dancing).
A capped pure gets the same additional amount of DS by going from 11 to 12 runestaff ranks as they do going from a 4x to a 5x runestaff.
A level 20 pure gets the same amount of additional DS by going from a 4x to a 5x runestaff as they would by going from 9 to 12 runestaff ranks.
Runestaff enchant is significant compared to the DS increase from extra magic ranks, particularly at lower levels. A level 10 pure will get about half their staff DS from the 4x enchant and only a quarter from their magic ranks (the other quarter comes from holding the staff).
At low level, when it isn't liable to be disarmed, it makes a lot of sense to use as high an enchant staff as you can lay your hands on. You just can't get comparable amounts of DS from training extra ranks.
>While it's useful towards around mid-game to cap, I can't think of a good reason to do so in the early years.
Haste. Its a lot easier managing the mana than bolting.
AGI (and spells) is the key to starting with a decent DS, not runestaff ranks. Cap is a different story.
>If you can get 10 magical ranks, and you're wielding a 4x runestaff (don't worry about investing too fast or too much in a greater enchant -- another story), and 4x armor, you should be doing fine when doing the parry tango (stance dancing).
A capped pure gets the same additional amount of DS by going from 11 to 12 runestaff ranks as they do going from a 4x to a 5x runestaff.
A level 20 pure gets the same amount of additional DS by going from a 4x to a 5x runestaff as they would by going from 9 to 12 runestaff ranks.
Runestaff enchant is significant compared to the DS increase from extra magic ranks, particularly at lower levels. A level 10 pure will get about half their staff DS from the 4x enchant and only a quarter from their magic ranks (the other quarter comes from holding the staff).
At low level, when it isn't liable to be disarmed, it makes a lot of sense to use as high an enchant staff as you can lay your hands on. You just can't get comparable amounts of DS from training extra ranks.
>While it's useful towards around mid-game to cap, I can't think of a good reason to do so in the early years.
Haste. Its a lot easier managing the mana than bolting.
DOUG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 09:52 AM CST
Heh. I was referring to brawling for an open hand. Wizards aren't great brawlers, even with haste, and with Voln.
Otherwise, with weapon and shield, I'd agree.
While you're here, Rath -- what's the thought on the tipping point for runestaff enchant versus training. Roughly 65 to 70 trains at nominal 10 ranks per? Or does it happen earlier?
Doug
Otherwise, with weapon and shield, I'd agree.
While you're here, Rath -- what's the thought on the tipping point for runestaff enchant versus training. Roughly 65 to 70 trains at nominal 10 ranks per? Or does it happen earlier?
Doug
RATHBONER
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 10:44 AM CST
>While you're here, Rath -- what's the thought on the tipping point for runestaff enchant versus training. Roughly 65 to 70 trains at nominal 10 ranks per? Or does it happen earlier?
The real tipping point is runestaff versus armor enchant. An enchant on armor is worth about double one on the runestaff if you are not liable to lose the staff. As the risk of loss goes up, enchant on the staff gets worth less.
Training magic ranks for runestaff DS is almost never worth it at any level. The returns diminsh very fast. A wizard shouldn't be without 1x AS and MIU if they use a staff, but thats about it.
If your magical training works in other ways, it will work for the DS too. Lots of spells, not many magic ranks, or few spells and lots of magic ranks, provided you are spending the points on magic, it doesn't matter. Usually I think you are a bit better off with the points towards tripling spells and fewer magic ranks.
The real tipping point is runestaff versus armor enchant. An enchant on armor is worth about double one on the runestaff if you are not liable to lose the staff. As the risk of loss goes up, enchant on the staff gets worth less.
Training magic ranks for runestaff DS is almost never worth it at any level. The returns diminsh very fast. A wizard shouldn't be without 1x AS and MIU if they use a staff, but thats about it.
If your magical training works in other ways, it will work for the DS too. Lots of spells, not many magic ranks, or few spells and lots of magic ranks, provided you are spending the points on magic, it doesn't matter. Usually I think you are a bit better off with the points towards tripling spells and fewer magic ranks.
THROGG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 01:21 PM CST
Hide behind a twig? No way! I use a BIG stick and bop things upside the head. Thwap!
::pulls out her self enchanted 7x maul::
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
::pulls out her self enchanted 7x maul::
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
BHTM
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 02:14 PM CST
Could we see some logs of you swinging a big stick and bopping things upside the head, preferably in the bowels and hasted if you don't mind. Thanks.
-Richard.
-Richard.
DOUG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 02:31 PM CST
Trap! It's a trap!
Hasted indeed. :P
Doug
Hasted indeed. :P
Doug
LAMOREED
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 03:15 PM CST
>>Hide behind a twig? No way! I use a BIG stick and bop things upside the head. Thwap!
>>::pulls out her self enchanted 7x maul::
I thought you used a Flail. What gives?! Logs to show how much more effective a maul is?
-- dantastic
>>::pulls out her self enchanted 7x maul::
I thought you used a Flail. What gives?! Logs to show how much more effective a maul is?
-- dantastic
SULLA
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 05:49 PM CST
In sorting through the posts, I guess it brings a question to mind about training choices in general. Ive listed below the magic training skills excluding spells. Any advice on two paths, one for sword shield the other for runestaff. If I understand correctly I can undo the damage May 20th if I go wrong?
Arcane Symbols
Magic Item Use
Harness Power
Spell Aiming
Mana Control: Elemental
Mana Control: Spiritual
Mana Control: Mental
Elemental Lore
Air
Earth
Fire
Water
Spiritual Lore
Blessings
Religion
Spirit Summoning
Sorcerous Lore
Demonology
Necromancy
Mental Lore
Divination
Manipulation
Telepathy
Transference
Transformation
Arcane Symbols
Magic Item Use
Harness Power
Spell Aiming
Mana Control: Elemental
Mana Control: Spiritual
Mana Control: Mental
Elemental Lore
Air
Earth
Fire
Water
Spiritual Lore
Blessings
Religion
Spirit Summoning
Sorcerous Lore
Demonology
Necromancy
Mental Lore
Divination
Manipulation
Telepathy
Transference
Transformation
THROGG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 06:07 PM CST
>>I thought you used a Flail. What gives?! Logs to show how much more effective a maul is?<<
Umm yes, I was using a flail. I enchanted it up to 6x. Then I bought a 4x fine maul, and enchanted it to 7x. Now the flail is tempering on its way to 7x.
So, eventually I will have the choice between a 7x superior flail and a 7x fine maul. The maul does have one thing in it's favor, namely that it does purely crush damage, while the flail can puncture. But, it's been a while since I have run into any puncture immune creatures, so this may not be all that germane.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Umm yes, I was using a flail. I enchanted it up to 6x. Then I bought a 4x fine maul, and enchanted it to 7x. Now the flail is tempering on its way to 7x.
So, eventually I will have the choice between a 7x superior flail and a 7x fine maul. The maul does have one thing in it's favor, namely that it does purely crush damage, while the flail can puncture. But, it's been a while since I have run into any puncture immune creatures, so this may not be all that germane.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 06:11 PM CST
>>Could we see some logs of you swinging a big stick and bopping things upside the head, preferably in the bowels and hasted if you don't mind. Thanks.<<
>>Trap! It's a trap!
Hasted indeed. :P<<
Yes, I know it's a trap. I haven't posted any combat logs for months. The last time I did, the GMs announced they were thinking of nerfing warmages. Anyone who wants to see Gwen in action can come to the Bowels with her.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
>>Trap! It's a trap!
Hasted indeed. :P<<
Yes, I know it's a trap. I haven't posted any combat logs for months. The last time I did, the GMs announced they were thinking of nerfing warmages. Anyone who wants to see Gwen in action can come to the Bowels with her.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
SILVERHEALER
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 06:57 PM CST
While I am anything but an expert ::bows in Doug and Rath's direction:: I have to say that your list of magical skills is all very well in theory but as a wizard you can't or shouldn't learn 3/4 of them. And if your character is a giantman, don't waste time on Spell Aim, either. Personally, my young wizards swing a weapon as mana is too hard to come by early on and use wands when needed.
I sincerely suggest you go to Krakiipedia and read everything there, and also read all the back posts in the entire Wizard folder. Over the years every question ever asked is answered, one way or the other, in those places.
I sincerely suggest you go to Krakiipedia and read everything there, and also read all the back posts in the entire Wizard folder. Over the years every question ever asked is answered, one way or the other, in those places.
DRIZZT-12
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 09:05 PM CST
As far as lores are concerned, the only lores you want to train in as a wizard are the ELEMENTAL ones. The others really won't help you at all.
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
ALUVIUS
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/08/2011 09:56 PM CST
Or just read through this forum since there are plenty of posts about pure and warmage builds.
THROGG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/09/2011 10:09 AM CST
>>And if your character is a giantman, don't waste time on Spell Aim, either.<<
This advice is offered with respect to the lower agi/dex bonuses for this race, but is, IMO, a bit misguided. My Giantkin empath was quite a terror when she was a pure caster, and used a lot of bolt spells, both native empath and wizard wands. I daresay a giantkin wizard would also be as effective using bolts. Remember, critters generally have a lower DS vs bolts than vs weapons.
I eventually fixskilled her spell aiming away, but not because she was ineffective using bolts; I switched her to THWs because I wanted more of a challenge. Using her as a pure caster was literally too easy :)
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
This advice is offered with respect to the lower agi/dex bonuses for this race, but is, IMO, a bit misguided. My Giantkin empath was quite a terror when she was a pure caster, and used a lot of bolt spells, both native empath and wizard wands. I daresay a giantkin wizard would also be as effective using bolts. Remember, critters generally have a lower DS vs bolts than vs weapons.
I eventually fixskilled her spell aiming away, but not because she was ineffective using bolts; I switched her to THWs because I wanted more of a challenge. Using her as a pure caster was literally too easy :)
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
Re: To runestaff or not to runestaff
02/09/2011 10:12 AM CST
Oh yes, my empath used 513 imbeds when she was bolting, to add to her bolt AS; but a wziard can mimic this added effect by using pure potions to get a similar AS boost.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
