To explain this, I need to give you some numbers.
I am 31 trains, with 60 ranks of CM, sweeping storm giants 37 trains. My margin on the sweep attempts is very regularly 68. Without mobility on, as I add CM ranks via enhancives, the margin scales up. It goes up about a point every 3 CM ranks or so, maybe a little less as it gets really high. With about +30 CM ranks, the margin scales up to about 77 or so.
In contrast, when I wear mobility whether cast on me by another or from a scroll, at 60 ranks the margin is 70 (which is expected, +2 to the margin!). However, and here is the problem, the margin no longer scales up as I put on CM enhancives. At about 90 CM ranks via +30 CM enhancives, the margin was still 70.
So, if this is not intended behavior (and I cant imagine why it would be), there is a bug in the interaction of mobility and CM ranks from enhancives.
GILCHRISTR
mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/03/2015 02:35 PM CDT
GILCHRISTR
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/03/2015 02:56 PM CDT
Here is the data I currently have on this:
level 31, sweep ranks 4, sweeping on storm giants (37 trains, confirmed by bard CS)
59 ranks, delta observed: 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68
60 ranks, delta observed: 70, 70, 70 (for this result, I was wearing mobility cast on me by another) 70, 70, 70 (this is when I was wearing mobility I cast [scroll])
61 ranks, delta observed: 69, 69, 69
62 ranks, delta observed: 70, 69, 69, 69, 69, 69
64 ranks, delta observed: 70, 70, 70, 70, 70
65 ranks, delta observed: 70, 70, 70, 70
67 ranks, delta observed: 71, 71, 71, 71
68 ranks: delta observed: 72, 72, 72, 72, 72
70 ranks: delta observed: 72, 72, 72, 72, 72
71 ranks: delta observed: 72, 73, 73, 73, 73, 73
74* ranks: delta observed: 73, 73, 73, 73, 73
75* ranks: delta observed: 74
92 ranks: delta observed: 70, 70, 70, 70, 70 (with mobility on, cast on me by another)
GILCHRISTR
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/03/2015 11:14 PM CDT
AT LEVEL 32 (sweeping storm giants, lvl 37):
With mobility
60 ranks - margin 79 observed 5 times, while wearing mobility
63 ranks - margin 79 observed 5 times, mobility
69 ranks - margin 79 observed 1 times, mobility
78 ranks - margin 79 observed 3 times, mobility
83 ranks - margin 79 observed 3 times, mobility
92 ranks - margin 79 observed 2 times, mobility
WITHOUT MOBILITY
60 ranks - margin 76, 78, 76, 76, 76, 76, 76, 76, 76
61 ranks - margin 77, 77, 77, 77
62 ranks - margin 77, 77, 77, 77
63 ranks - margin 78, observed 8 times
64 ranks - margin 78, 78, 78, 78, 78
65 ranks - margin 78, 78, 78, 78
66 ranks - margin 79, 79, 79
68 ranks - margin 80, 80, 80
69 ranks - margin 80, 80, 80
71 ranks - margin 81, 81, 81, 81
95 ranks - margin 86, 86, 86, 86, 86
You can clearly see that the margin is fixed with mobility. As CM ranks are added, there is no scaling, in contrast to the results when not wearing mobility.
CANNONCD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/04/2015 05:35 PM CDT
Very interesting....
GILCHRISTR
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/04/2015 05:43 PM CDT
Looks like storm giants are actually level 39.
Anyway, to sum it up - this applies to everyone not just rangers - if you have CM bonus or CM ranks enhancive and you are fully trained in CM (2x), the testing demonstrates that wearing mobility will currently make you LESS LIKELY to succeed on at least your offensive CMANs.
Anyway, to sum it up - this applies to everyone not just rangers - if you have CM bonus or CM ranks enhancive and you are fully trained in CM (2x), the testing demonstrates that wearing mobility will currently make you LESS LIKELY to succeed on at least your offensive CMANs.
ELIZAISGOD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/04/2015 05:44 PM CDT
If 618 is preventing us from getting bonuses from CM enhancives that take us past 2x, I hope someone will fix it.
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
GS4-ESTILD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 12:50 AM CDT
This should now be resolved. As with Patron's Blessing (1611), which this bug also affected, the maximum spell bonus from either spell cannot take you past the equivalent of 2x training in Combat Maneuvers for offensive and defensive maneuver calculations.
GameMaster Estild
GameMaster Estild
ELIZAISGOD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 01:29 AM CDT
Thanks.
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
GILCHRISTR
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 02:19 AM CDT
Thank you.
Can the official spell description be updated to explicitly state that the spell gives "phantom CM ranks", or whatever term (the spell description could be taken almost verbatim from the similar spell you noted, patron's blessing.
In addition, can you give here information about how many "phantom CM ranks" mobility gives? So that rangers will be able to figure out how many times they need to train CM such that combined with their spell, they are fully 2x'ed for CMANs? I think paladins have this information in their version of the spell on either the officials or the gswiki.
Can the official spell description be updated to explicitly state that the spell gives "phantom CM ranks", or whatever term (the spell description could be taken almost verbatim from the similar spell you noted, patron's blessing.
In addition, can you give here information about how many "phantom CM ranks" mobility gives? So that rangers will be able to figure out how many times they need to train CM such that combined with their spell, they are fully 2x'ed for CMANs? I think paladins have this information in their version of the spell on either the officials or the gswiki.
KRAKII
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 10:09 AM CDT
"In addition, can you give here information about how many "phantom CM ranks" mobility gives? So that rangers will be able to figure out how many times they need to train CM such that combined with their spell, they are fully 2x'ed for CMANs?" -- GilchristR
"the maximum spell bonus from either spell cannot take you past the equivalent of 2x training in Combat Maneuvers for offensive and defensive maneuver calculations." -- GM Estild
You're 19th level. You can train 20 times. Double-trained == 40. You have 17 ranks. The maximum spell benefit is +23.
It wasn't terribly difficult for Patron's Blessing, it shouldn't be too tough for Rangers, either.
(Unless they can't find their fingers to count upon, but that's a different issue entirely.)
"the maximum spell bonus from either spell cannot take you past the equivalent of 2x training in Combat Maneuvers for offensive and defensive maneuver calculations." -- GM Estild
You're 19th level. You can train 20 times. Double-trained == 40. You have 17 ranks. The maximum spell benefit is +23.
It wasn't terribly difficult for Patron's Blessing, it shouldn't be too tough for Rangers, either.
(Unless they can't find their fingers to count upon, but that's a different issue entirely.)
GILCHRISTR
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 11:01 AM CDT
"The maximum spell benefit is +23."
What I believe remains unknown is how many ranger spell ranks are required to get that +23.
What I believe remains unknown is how many ranger spell ranks are required to get that +23.
GS4-ESTILD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 11:12 AM CDT
This only applies to CML calculations: for Rangers, it's ((ranger spell ranks - 18) * 2 / 3) + 15. For non-Rangers, it's just +15. As noted before, both bonuses are capped at the equivalent of being 2x trained in CM.
GameMaster Estild
GameMaster Estild
ELIZAISGOD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 02:00 PM CDT
Thanks again for the info, Estild.
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
KITHUS
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 02:48 PM CDT
| This only applies to CML calculations: for Rangers, it's ((ranger spell ranks - 18) * 2 / 3). For non-Rangers, it's just +15. As noted before, both bonuses are capped at the equivalent of being 2x trained in CM. |
| GameMaster Estild |
So if you have 18 ranger spell ranks it's a 0 bonus to you as a ranger but +15 if you cast it on someone else or is there a minimum benefit to the ranger?
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
PENNINGTONB1
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 03:03 PM CDT
That's fantastic info. Thanks, Estild.
~Brian, Sepher's player
(SecretName does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
~Brian, Sepher's player
(SecretName does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
GS4-ESTILD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/05/2015 03:40 PM CDT
| Keith/Brinret/Shiun |
| So if you have 18 ranger spell ranks it's a 0 bonus to you as a ranger but +15 if you cast it on someone else or is there a minimum benefit to the ranger? |
I corrected my original post. There should be a + 15 at the end of the formula for Rangers.
GameMaster Estild
SHEN1
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 05:54 AM CDT
So if we are already at 202 ranks combat maneuvers, we wont see any benefit from mobility I take it?
KITHUS
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 07:10 AM CDT
Alright that makes a lot more sense. I figured there must have been something missing. Thanks for the update!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
PENNINGTONB1
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 08:19 AM CDT
>So if we are already at 202 ranks combat maneuvers, we wont see any benefit from mobility I take it?
Correct. With 202 CM ranks, 618 will provide 0 phantom ranks.
~Brian, Sepher's player
(SecretName does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
Correct. With 202 CM ranks, 618 will provide 0 phantom ranks.
~Brian, Sepher's player
(SecretName does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
GS4-ESTILD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 10:09 AM CDT
| PENNINGTONB1 |
| Correct. With 202 CM ranks, 618 will provide 0 phantom ranks. |
Just keep in mind, this only applies to the CML, which is different than the standard maneuver roll. Mobility has a ton of benefits, a number of which are even capped.
GameMaster Estild
PENNINGTONB1
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 01:48 PM CDT
Couple questions, Estild.
Is the CML bonus capped at level, a characters max CM ranks, or both?
Does any bonus from CM equivelent ranks apply to other benefits normally gained by CM ranks, or solely to CML offensive/defense? As in, do these ranks count toward non-CML maneuver defense? Another example of CM benefits would be additional AS, which we know 618 spell does not apply.
Hopefully that made sense.
~Brian, Sepher's player
(SecretName does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
Is the CML bonus capped at level, a characters max CM ranks, or both?
Does any bonus from CM equivelent ranks apply to other benefits normally gained by CM ranks, or solely to CML offensive/defense? As in, do these ranks count toward non-CML maneuver defense? Another example of CM benefits would be additional AS, which we know 618 spell does not apply.
Hopefully that made sense.
~Brian, Sepher's player
(SecretName does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
ELIZAISGOD
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 06:16 PM CDT
>Is the CML bonus capped at level, a characters max CM ranks, or both?
Not sure exactly what you're asking, but he just said it was capped at 2x level.
>Does any bonus from CM equivelent ranks apply to other benefits normally gained by CM ranks, or solely to CML offensive/defense? As in, do these ranks count toward non-CML maneuver defense?
They told us a while ago that 618 adds Standard Maneuver Roll defense, and that that bonus was uncapped.
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
Not sure exactly what you're asking, but he just said it was capped at 2x level.
>Does any bonus from CM equivelent ranks apply to other benefits normally gained by CM ranks, or solely to CML offensive/defense? As in, do these ranks count toward non-CML maneuver defense?
They told us a while ago that 618 adds Standard Maneuver Roll defense, and that that bonus was uncapped.
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
DOUG
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 06:28 PM CDT
Adds DS too, through Dodge, doesn't it?
Doug
Doug
SPYRIDONM1
Re: mobility 618 preventing CM margin from scaling up with enhancive CM ranks
05/06/2015 11:29 PM CDT
>I'm asking if that's the only point the bonus is capped at. Some spells are capped at level, etc. If I have 202 ranger and if the bonus from 618 doesn't push my CM equiv ranks beyond 202, does every spell rank count toward the bonus, or does it stop at 100?
>Also, I'm fairly sure that the other bonuses from this spell aren't capped at level (Droit mentioned that the standard maneuver bonus isn't), though the Wiki says that they are. Would someone confirm this for me? I don't trust my memory.
>I'm going to rewrite some of the article. I have no idea what people were thinking when they edited it. Weren't DAID and SARAH3 on a crusade to make the wiki not suck with their superior intellect (they must be too busy writing emails)?
>~Brian, Sepher's player
>(Sinodlak does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
1. Ranger ranks converted to dodge phantom ranks are capped at level. There is no observed DS bonus increase from ranks greater than level.
2. Ranger ranks factored into the CM phantom ranks formula are uncapped. Combat maneuver offensive and defensive effectiveness continues to increase with additional ranks greater than level.
3. Ranger ranks applied toward standard creature maneuvers are uncapped based on a response to Droit from Mestys.
Mark (not a ranger)
>Also, I'm fairly sure that the other bonuses from this spell aren't capped at level (Droit mentioned that the standard maneuver bonus isn't), though the Wiki says that they are. Would someone confirm this for me? I don't trust my memory.
>I'm going to rewrite some of the article. I have no idea what people were thinking when they edited it. Weren't DAID and SARAH3 on a crusade to make the wiki not suck with their superior intellect (they must be too busy writing emails)?
>~Brian, Sepher's player
>(Sinodlak does not like Sepher and thinks he is wasting time.)
1. Ranger ranks converted to dodge phantom ranks are capped at level. There is no observed DS bonus increase from ranks greater than level.
2. Ranger ranks factored into the CM phantom ranks formula are uncapped. Combat maneuver offensive and defensive effectiveness continues to increase with additional ranks greater than level.
3. Ranger ranks applied toward standard creature maneuvers are uncapped based on a response to Droit from Mestys.
Mark (not a ranger)
