What are our chances on seeing either a 620 review or an armor review for rangers? Rogues, for example, have options available to them which make light armor more attractive, while rangers were left behind in this regard (we have no ARMOR, SHIELD, or specialty CMAN abilities, despite being able to 2x all of them; the TP costs for these are also now overvalued mechanically based on comparisons with other classes). I'd love to know what the dev team things about this particular balance issue where rangers are concerned.
Most rangers go into some form of chain once they're able, rendering one of our neatest (but unfortunately limited in many ways) spells useless for those rangers. The benefit of even a high resistance armor, except in rare circumstances, never overwhelms the benefit of a higher AG armor.
Is this an issue that might be considered in the near future for development? I know a lot of rangers would like to see something like this happen.
~Brian, Sepher's player
P.S. I should make another thread, but I just have one question regarding the SHIELD maneuver system. Why is it that I can learn Shield Bash through the CMAN system, while I can't through the SHIELD system? Would that make ranger CMANs too overwhelming (this is rhetorical)?
PENNINGTONB1
WINTERMYST
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/02/2015 03:27 PM CST
<Most rangers go into some form of chain once they're able, rendering one of our neatest (but unfortunately limited in many ways) spells useless for those rangers. The benefit of even a high resistance armor, except in rare circumstances, never overwhelms the benefit of a higher AG armor.>
Not sure why you would say that most rangers are in heavy armor, my ranger is capped and in 6x HCP brig, and that was only after CCF, there is no reason a ranger needs to go into heavier armor than brig.
I however do agree that the hinderance for a class that are semi-casters is ridiculous, even in brig it can drive you bonkers, I was in the temple casting spike thorn 6 fails in 6 casts grrrrrrrrrrrrr.....
~Shi'larra & Miaya~
Milly's shriek can once again be heard from a back corner, quickly followed by a muffled thump. A couple of larger penguins waddle from that direction, looking oddly pleased with themselves.
Not sure why you would say that most rangers are in heavy armor, my ranger is capped and in 6x HCP brig, and that was only after CCF, there is no reason a ranger needs to go into heavier armor than brig.
I however do agree that the hinderance for a class that are semi-casters is ridiculous, even in brig it can drive you bonkers, I was in the temple casting spike thorn 6 fails in 6 casts grrrrrrrrrrrrr.....
~Shi'larra & Miaya~
Milly's shriek can once again be heard from a back corner, quickly followed by a muffled thump. A couple of larger penguins waddle from that direction, looking oddly pleased with themselves.
DMWCINCY
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/02/2015 05:25 PM CST
Since i dont have access to HCP and on standard account i dont have PP i have my capped ranger in chain haubek. That didnt happen until about the 95 lvl. Up to that point it was brig. It was a must for him in invasions and warcamps. He is also a true semi and hunts with both spells and his weapons and while annoying i do not find the hinderance an issue.
PENNINGTONB1
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/03/2015 01:42 PM CST
>Not sure why you would say that most rangers are in heavy armor, my ranger is capped and in 6x HCP brig, and that was only after CCF, there is no reason a ranger needs to go into heavier armor than brig.
Statistically speaking, most capped rangers get into chain. You may not, but you are not most people. You are one person. That's why I say most capped rangers are in some form of chain. Even before I was capped, I went up the sub groups of chain simply for the better crit divisor (because I felt I needed it).
Personally, I wear haub for extra protection in invasions and swarmy hunting situations, and because it has a lower CvA which makes the difference between being warded or not by things like sentries, cerebralites, etc.
~Brian, Sepher's player
Statistically speaking, most capped rangers get into chain. You may not, but you are not most people. You are one person. That's why I say most capped rangers are in some form of chain. Even before I was capped, I went up the sub groups of chain simply for the better crit divisor (because I felt I needed it).
Personally, I wear haub for extra protection in invasions and swarmy hunting situations, and because it has a lower CvA which makes the difference between being warded or not by things like sentries, cerebralites, etc.
~Brian, Sepher's player
CRESPO8
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/03/2015 03:56 PM CST
down with metal! I use Brig also and never touch that metal armor. I do wish 620 was actually useful though in everyday situations considering chain is actually far superior.
Daemon Ranger
Daemon Ranger
KITHUS
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 09:42 AM CST
Correction, most PRIME rangers are in chain. Most PLAT rangers are in brig. You only need a better crit divisor if you are getting hit and if you're getting hit as a capped ranger you aren't training right.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
PENNINGTONB1
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 11:51 AM CST
>Correction, most PRIME rangers are in chain. Most PLAT rangers are in brig. You only need a better crit divisor if you are getting hit and if you're getting hit as a capped ranger you aren't training right.
First of all, who cares about plat. It can just disappear and stop wasting everyone's time pretending to be a thing. We all know everything is just easy mode there. ;P
In certain circumstances, you can wear just about anything. In OTF, I'm currently in plain 4x doubles (because I had to do some assasining and needed a high nature resistance #killingYourOwn), and have been hunting in it for a few days just to see how it goes. Sepher is fine in it, and his DS is high enough that he can't be hit regardless, sans a few older cons and griffins after he gets knocked down. I wouldn't recommend doubles there for anyone not at least a bit post-cap unless they're trying to be a pure ranger early on.
Main circle around Nelemar, I could probably wear doubles, too. Sepher is pretty far post-cap, however, so again it's not for everybody.
Invasions, Nelemar with sentries, or The Scatter: I want my hauberk to stop or greatly reduce warded hits. Every point makes a difference in these places since any time (even a couple seconds) spent incapacitated can lead to a quick death.
Most of the time, I just wear my hauberk because it's better and I don't want to change armors all the time. I have to admit I do love the 0% hindrance of doubles, though -- I feel like I come out spending half the mana I do in hauberk.
All that said, the hauberk has saved my life far more times than I can count. I still remember watching those death knights from underWehnimer's wasting people with their 700+ AS and two handers. I got caught in offensive a couple times against those hits and could only laugh at the 1-3 round stuns from 250-300 endrolls. One example from many.
~Brian, Sepher's player
First of all, who cares about plat. It can just disappear and stop wasting everyone's time pretending to be a thing. We all know everything is just easy mode there. ;P
In certain circumstances, you can wear just about anything. In OTF, I'm currently in plain 4x doubles (because I had to do some assasining and needed a high nature resistance #killingYourOwn), and have been hunting in it for a few days just to see how it goes. Sepher is fine in it, and his DS is high enough that he can't be hit regardless, sans a few older cons and griffins after he gets knocked down. I wouldn't recommend doubles there for anyone not at least a bit post-cap unless they're trying to be a pure ranger early on.
Main circle around Nelemar, I could probably wear doubles, too. Sepher is pretty far post-cap, however, so again it's not for everybody.
Invasions, Nelemar with sentries, or The Scatter: I want my hauberk to stop or greatly reduce warded hits. Every point makes a difference in these places since any time (even a couple seconds) spent incapacitated can lead to a quick death.
Most of the time, I just wear my hauberk because it's better and I don't want to change armors all the time. I have to admit I do love the 0% hindrance of doubles, though -- I feel like I come out spending half the mana I do in hauberk.
All that said, the hauberk has saved my life far more times than I can count. I still remember watching those death knights from underWehnimer's wasting people with their 700+ AS and two handers. I got caught in offensive a couple times against those hits and could only laugh at the 1-3 round stuns from 250-300 endrolls. One example from many.
~Brian, Sepher's player
PENNINGTONB1
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 12:01 PM CST
By the way, aren't you most ranger(s) in plat? What are there, like 30 players left there?
~Brian, Sepher's player
~Brian, Sepher's player
KITHUS
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 01:00 PM CST
There's a trade off there. Between brig and hauberk you are talking about an 11 better CvA and better crit divisor but an additional 3% dodge DS reduction, 5% higher spell hindrance and a 6 higher maneuver penalty.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
PENNINGTONB1
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 01:57 PM CST
>There's a trade off there. Between brig and hauberk you are talking about an 11 better CvA and better crit divisor but an additional 3% dodge DS reduction, 5% higher spell hindrance and a 6 higher maneuver penalty.
All of those detriments are negligible for my PC. To me, spell hindrance is an all or nothing sort of thing. If there is any hindrance, my hunting habits will account for spell failure. If there's none, I know I can rely 100% on my spells and can take on a more "glass cannon" approach. For the maneuver penalty, I can take out a pretty good portion of the penalty through armor overtraining. And I don't care if I lose 15-18 DS.
The CvA means 11% less death in situations where it matters.
~Brian, Sepher's player, with -29 CvA after ensorcells, which makes it impossible for sents to ward him.
All of those detriments are negligible for my PC. To me, spell hindrance is an all or nothing sort of thing. If there is any hindrance, my hunting habits will account for spell failure. If there's none, I know I can rely 100% on my spells and can take on a more "glass cannon" approach. For the maneuver penalty, I can take out a pretty good portion of the penalty through armor overtraining. And I don't care if I lose 15-18 DS.
The CvA means 11% less death in situations where it matters.
~Brian, Sepher's player, with -29 CvA after ensorcells, which makes it impossible for sents to ward him.
KITHUS
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 02:11 PM CST
Eww you use a shield?
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
PENNINGTONB1
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 02:40 PM CST
>Eww you use a shield?
I use a runestaff and a shield. I'm hardcore.
~Brian, Sepher's player
I use a runestaff and a shield. I'm hardcore.
~Brian, Sepher's player
KRAKII
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 06:42 PM CST
"I use a runestaff and a shield. I'm hardcore." -- Brian, Sepher's player
Yeah, but do you use it as a 2Hand weapon?!?!?
Yeah, but do you use it as a 2Hand weapon?!?!?
PENNINGTONB1
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 06:52 PM CST
>Yeah, but do you use it as a 2Hand weapon?!?!? -Krakii
Don't tell anyone, but my runestaff has this bug where I can swing it like a two-hander that only needs one open hand. It's also a modified claidhmore.
~Brian, Sepher's player
Don't tell anyone, but my runestaff has this bug where I can swing it like a two-hander that only needs one open hand. It's also a modified claidhmore.
~Brian, Sepher's player
GS4-TAMUZ
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/04/2015 08:00 PM CST
I use double leather for my capped ranger.
___
SGM of 3P and P3
Platinum, Premium, Promotions, and
Magical Night Clubs
___
SGM of 3P and P3
Platinum, Premium, Promotions, and
Magical Night Clubs
RATHBONER
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/05/2015 06:41 AM CST
Light armor where you can keep track of the critters and use tactics to stop them getting actions on you.
Heavy armor when the area is too crowded to track the critters and you are going to hit by actions whatever your tactics.
It sounds like brig is the worst of both worlds. Heavy enough to interfere with tactics, not heavy enough to protect well when tactics aren't any use.
Heavy armor when the area is too crowded to track the critters and you are going to hit by actions whatever your tactics.
It sounds like brig is the worst of both worlds. Heavy enough to interfere with tactics, not heavy enough to protect well when tactics aren't any use.
COYOTERRE
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/05/2015 10:46 PM CST
Was in platemail for awhile, and then gave it up just before I left. Not being able to cast while hunting was annoying - only - because of the spell durations.
Now that the spell duration issues are resolved, I have "train back up to platemail" on my post-cap training plan. I admittedly have pushed towards increased offensive capability so far in my post cap skills. I am hunting much less than what I once did, so it may be quite a while before I get back to platemail.
It's a mutant path, I know, but Turin's always been a mutant.
Nothing gave me greater pleasure during invasions than being in platemail and being able to go toe to toe with big nasties.
Mind you, the latest crop of big nasties are much much nastier than they were 6 years ago.
And I will say, as I was in platemail before capping, that maneuvers definitely felt like an issue (I was hunting Illoke/Bowels and stacking maneuvers were what killed me.. stuck prone in offensive and stacking RT, while HPs were plinked away was pretty awful), but that's subjective, and memory's a bear like that.
I think going 202 ranks in armor would offset some of the penalty, if I'm understanding the changes.
Now, as far as this thread goes - it'd take a lot more than 620 functionality to make me use leather armors again. While I think it's a cool spell, to maximize its use requires a pretty dedicated amount of training points, and then again, being limited to leather armors makes it even less useful, to me.
To be able to use it on chain class armors, even if moderately less effective, would (to me) be a tremendous improvement to the spell and make it something that all rangers could use, which I think should be the goal of the spell list.
I also agree that some of the more interesting maneuver training possibilities are not available to us. Armor. Shield. Surge of Strength! I am on my way to 2x armor and 2x CMAN and pretty much I only train in specific combat maneuvers to defend against bandit attacks. Seriously, if I have CM points available and I'm on a bandit bounty and a bandit disables me notably, that's where I put my CM points. Suffice to say I die less to bandits than I did 9 months ago. But, gosh, it'd be nice if there were maneuvers to train in that I might actually use, beyond defense. (Surge of Strength!) :-p
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
Now that the spell duration issues are resolved, I have "train back up to platemail" on my post-cap training plan. I admittedly have pushed towards increased offensive capability so far in my post cap skills. I am hunting much less than what I once did, so it may be quite a while before I get back to platemail.
It's a mutant path, I know, but Turin's always been a mutant.
Nothing gave me greater pleasure during invasions than being in platemail and being able to go toe to toe with big nasties.
Mind you, the latest crop of big nasties are much much nastier than they were 6 years ago.
And I will say, as I was in platemail before capping, that maneuvers definitely felt like an issue (I was hunting Illoke/Bowels and stacking maneuvers were what killed me.. stuck prone in offensive and stacking RT, while HPs were plinked away was pretty awful), but that's subjective, and memory's a bear like that.
I think going 202 ranks in armor would offset some of the penalty, if I'm understanding the changes.
Now, as far as this thread goes - it'd take a lot more than 620 functionality to make me use leather armors again. While I think it's a cool spell, to maximize its use requires a pretty dedicated amount of training points, and then again, being limited to leather armors makes it even less useful, to me.
To be able to use it on chain class armors, even if moderately less effective, would (to me) be a tremendous improvement to the spell and make it something that all rangers could use, which I think should be the goal of the spell list.
I also agree that some of the more interesting maneuver training possibilities are not available to us. Armor. Shield. Surge of Strength! I am on my way to 2x armor and 2x CMAN and pretty much I only train in specific combat maneuvers to defend against bandit attacks. Seriously, if I have CM points available and I'm on a bandit bounty and a bandit disables me notably, that's where I put my CM points. Suffice to say I die less to bandits than I did 9 months ago. But, gosh, it'd be nice if there were maneuvers to train in that I might actually use, beyond defense. (Surge of Strength!) :-p
~ Bill, Coyote.
The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.
~ Voltaire
SHEN1
Re: 620/Armor Review
02/12/2015 10:55 AM CST
Late getting to the thread I imagine. I have worn hauberk for a very long time. I would tend to think after cap, it is a bit easier to manage for most. I have just completed training to 170 armor ranks to offset maneuver penalties some. Definitely worth the investment if your going to wear hauberk.
I also think Aurach's style of two weapons has always leaned on heavier armor. Can always wear less armor if you want to move quicker during some patrols, and stack on the heavier for invasions and such. If I recall Armor ranks still helps in the redux formula someplace. So not a total loss training more than you need.
John
