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Having primarily rolled pures, I'm trying a polearm-user for the first time, and was wondering if anyone could post some successful training plans for polearm-using semis. I've re-aligned stats and such about 3 times, and wanted a better base of reference before committing to my fifth stat fix. Are there any good player sites with polearm training plans? Thanks for any help.
LMK1707
THROGG
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/04/2006 05:31 PM CST
Training plans aren't that different from another weapon type. With no shield, you will want to pick up dodge to help your DS vs bolt type attacks, but most semi's train in that in any event. 2x weapon, 1x or more in CM. It is not possible to hide and ambush with the larger poelarms, so S&H may not be on your list of desirable skills, although you can do so with things like spears and tridents, I think. (Never actually tried with a spear, but I believe it's the size of things like lances that sort of prevent you from surprising a foe in an ambush).
You need a high agi/dex bonus to wield the slower polearms in 5 seconds; I believe 53 total for a lance, if memory serves. A giant or dwarf cannot do this; I think a half-krolvin may just be able to manage that figure.
M-stike with a lance or awl pike is very awkward and slow, but works fairly well with a spear/trident.
You need a high agi/dex bonus to wield the slower polearms in 5 seconds; I believe 53 total for a lance, if memory serves. A giant or dwarf cannot do this; I think a half-krolvin may just be able to manage that figure.
M-stike with a lance or awl pike is very awkward and slow, but works fairly well with a spear/trident.
ICEWHITE
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/04/2006 06:46 PM CST
Throgg's right, but if you still want to look at something I put my old polearm post up on krakiipedia.
Its very general and doesn't get into stat placement as that varies greatly with profession and race.
There's also some extra comments on bards specifically at the end since that's what I'm nost familiar with. ;)
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
Its very general and doesn't get into stat placement as that varies greatly with profession and race.
There's also some extra comments on bards specifically at the end since that's what I'm nost familiar with. ;)
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
GANDHIKAHN
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 06:07 AM CST
>M-stike with a lance or awl pike is very awkward and slow
It is also absolutely devestating, particularly focused MSTRIKES. If you have access to imbeds and MIU, burning a charge of Haste is well worth it to unleash a huge MSTRIKE in certain situations. Frankly, I feel more comfortable MSTRIKing with a lance based weapon than a spear, even with the associated roundtimes. The caveat here is that I play a warrior and melee attacks are the buzzing of flies to him. If you connect with with a lance base there is a very good chance it will result in a stun, knockdown, or death. The spear just doesn't have that kind of stopping power in unaimed strikes.
As for a polearm build specific to semis, it is entirely dependant on which profession you are playing. The spells to which you have access will really determine how you build around the core combat skills. That said, if you still have statfixes that must mean the character is relatively new... there is still time to save yourself from a life of misery and reroll as a warrior ;)
It is also absolutely devestating, particularly focused MSTRIKES. If you have access to imbeds and MIU, burning a charge of Haste is well worth it to unleash a huge MSTRIKE in certain situations. Frankly, I feel more comfortable MSTRIKing with a lance based weapon than a spear, even with the associated roundtimes. The caveat here is that I play a warrior and melee attacks are the buzzing of flies to him. If you connect with with a lance base there is a very good chance it will result in a stun, knockdown, or death. The spear just doesn't have that kind of stopping power in unaimed strikes.
As for a polearm build specific to semis, it is entirely dependant on which profession you are playing. The spells to which you have access will really determine how you build around the core combat skills. That said, if you still have statfixes that must mean the character is relatively new... there is still time to save yourself from a life of misery and reroll as a warrior ;)
IMSATI
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 07:03 AM CST
>there is still time to save yourself from a life of misery and reroll as a warrior
Though if you reroll as a warrior, you may very well live a life of jealously after seeing Polearm Empaths hunt.
Better cut to the chase and start a Polepath now rather than wait.
~Imaera's Favorite
~Loves 2-Handed Poles
Though if you reroll as a warrior, you may very well live a life of jealously after seeing Polearm Empaths hunt.
Better cut to the chase and start a Polepath now rather than wait.
~Imaera's Favorite
~Loves 2-Handed Poles
THROGG
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 02:36 PM CST
>>focused MSTRIKES. If you have access to imbeds and MIU, burning a charge of Haste is well worth it to unleash a huge MSTRIKE in certain situations<<
Well gee whiz! Naturally it's devastating if you're hasted.
>>If you connect with with a lance base there is a very good chance it will result in a stun, knockdown, or death. The spear just doesn't have that kind of stopping power in unaimed strikes.<<
This is unarguably true; a lance is devastating. However, the person asking is a semi; semis are unlikely to be in plate mail (well, maybe a paladin), and so can't afford to sit around in offensive stance for 10 seconds or so of RT. Nor are they likely to get the needed 30 ranks of MOC for a focused Mstrike as early in training as a warrior. Hence my warning that Mstriking with a lance is slow.
Well gee whiz! Naturally it's devastating if you're hasted.
>>If you connect with with a lance base there is a very good chance it will result in a stun, knockdown, or death. The spear just doesn't have that kind of stopping power in unaimed strikes.<<
This is unarguably true; a lance is devastating. However, the person asking is a semi; semis are unlikely to be in plate mail (well, maybe a paladin), and so can't afford to sit around in offensive stance for 10 seconds or so of RT. Nor are they likely to get the needed 30 ranks of MOC for a focused Mstrike as early in training as a warrior. Hence my warning that Mstriking with a lance is slow.
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 02:48 PM CST
>This is unarguably true; a lance is devastating. However, the person asking is a semi; semis are unlikely to be in plate mail (well, maybe a paladin), and so can't afford to sit around in offensive stance for 10 seconds or so of RT. Nor are they likely to get the needed 30 ranks of MOC for a focused Mstrike as early in training as a warrior. Hence my warning that Mstriking with a lance is slow.
Care to place money on this?
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
MOCing Semi
Care to place money on this?
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
MOCing Semi
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 02:53 PM CST
I suppose I should be a bit more helpful...
My Bard is TWC, but for purposes of threat assesment and RT issues, there are similar situations. For the record I am not talking outta my arse with pole arms, I do have a fair amount of experience with them;)
At any rate, my Bard already had gotten the requisite 30 ranks of MOC by 30th train, maybe slightly after as that was around the time the limit got lowered. TWC, so no shield and comparable defense. Quite often focused mstrikes and unfocused are my friends, giving me on occasion RTs much larger than 10 seconds;)
At any rate, the point is with a semi, you take other steps. For Bards in particular ewave is a great setup spell. Or Lullabye if talking about a single target. Rangers have their options, though my gut feeling is they may not be as good at MOC as they are at ambush. Paladins as have already been mentioned can get into heavier armor easier than either of the others. But for the record my Bard still wears studded leathers, he hasn't needed plate or chain yet and this is true for up to at least 60 trains(Where he is hunting now) and most likely above(I have already successfully uphunted in various areas such as Stronghold etc)
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
My Bard is TWC, but for purposes of threat assesment and RT issues, there are similar situations. For the record I am not talking outta my arse with pole arms, I do have a fair amount of experience with them;)
At any rate, my Bard already had gotten the requisite 30 ranks of MOC by 30th train, maybe slightly after as that was around the time the limit got lowered. TWC, so no shield and comparable defense. Quite often focused mstrikes and unfocused are my friends, giving me on occasion RTs much larger than 10 seconds;)
At any rate, the point is with a semi, you take other steps. For Bards in particular ewave is a great setup spell. Or Lullabye if talking about a single target. Rangers have their options, though my gut feeling is they may not be as good at MOC as they are at ambush. Paladins as have already been mentioned can get into heavier armor easier than either of the others. But for the record my Bard still wears studded leathers, he hasn't needed plate or chain yet and this is true for up to at least 60 trains(Where he is hunting now) and most likely above(I have already successfully uphunted in various areas such as Stronghold etc)
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
HOFMANNM1
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 03:19 PM CST
To be fair though, you do have a somewhat higher threshold for number of acceptable deaths, Seablade.
-Anathemus' player
-Anathemus' player
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 03:26 PM CST
Actually the VAST majority of my deaths post 40 levels have been from 1018, NOT from creatures. In the past several levels I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I have died(With my bard) to a creature. Actually the only one I can actually think of was a boss critter in a swarm of 5 other critters...
Where I proved retribution DOES have a use... getting you a bounty task completed after dying;)
My rogue is another matter, but he hurls his weapons, he has an excuse.
My wizard I think has died once total.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
Who hasn't died much... something is DEFINITLY wrong;)
Where I proved retribution DOES have a use... getting you a bounty task completed after dying;)
My rogue is another matter, but he hurls his weapons, he has an excuse.
My wizard I think has died once total.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
Who hasn't died much... something is DEFINITLY wrong;)
THROGG
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 04:32 PM CST
Well, my bard and paladin both use polearms also. Neither of them have the stats right now to use a lance in 5 seconds, but they will in 4-5 trainings, I estimate.
So, right now ...
Srike with a lance: 6 seconds
Mstrike with lance, 2 opponents: 11 seconds
Focused Mstrike, 2 attacks: 10 seconds
Figure when stats go up, I can shave 1 second off the above times. Still a significant hang time there. On the other hand, they can mstrike with a spear in 7 seconds. Not as much damage, true, but less RT to worry about.
Yes, semi spells can be used to set up the foe; but if another critter wanders in during that time and swings, you'll be open to attack.
So, right now ...
Srike with a lance: 6 seconds
Mstrike with lance, 2 opponents: 11 seconds
Focused Mstrike, 2 attacks: 10 seconds
Figure when stats go up, I can shave 1 second off the above times. Still a significant hang time there. On the other hand, they can mstrike with a spear in 7 seconds. Not as much damage, true, but less RT to worry about.
Yes, semi spells can be used to set up the foe; but if another critter wanders in during that time and swings, you'll be open to attack.
KENHINDS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/05/2006 10:33 PM CST
Throgg,
When another creature walks in on you, just tell them that you are busy and they have to move to the end of the line and wait their turn. No line cutting allowed. :)
Ken
When another creature walks in on you, just tell them that you are busy and they have to move to the end of the line and wait their turn. No line cutting allowed. :)
Ken
GANDHIKAHN
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 06:13 AM CST
>Figure when stats go up, I can shave 1 second off the above times. Still a significant hang time there. On the other hand, they can mstrike with a spear in 7 seconds. Not as much damage, true, but less RT to worry about. Yes, semi spells can be used to set up the foe; but if another critter wanders in during that time and swings, you'll be open to attack.
I guess we just approach hunting in fundamentally different ways. To me, being stuck in 10 seconds of offensive RT over two dead or horribly crippled foes is better than dancing with two living (and potentially dangerous) foes while poking tiny holes in them over the course of several exchanges.
I guess we just approach hunting in fundamentally different ways. To me, being stuck in 10 seconds of offensive RT over two dead or horribly crippled foes is better than dancing with two living (and potentially dangerous) foes while poking tiny holes in them over the course of several exchanges.
ACMEGAMER
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 08:27 AM CST
I'm not finding that the spear in two handed mode is anything to scoff at personally. Sure it's not freaking lance but what is? Mechanically unbalanced weapon.
GANDHIKAHN
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 02:54 PM CST
>Sure it's not freaking lance but what is? Mechanically unbalanced weapon.
Are you basing that statement solely on the DF on the lance? In my experience, when a mechanic is unbalanced in favor of the player, people tend to gravitate toward it. Examples of this are DESs triple training in spells during GS3, the hide/ambush style of hunting used by every melee and some pure professions during GS3, etc.
The high DF of lance based weapons is offset by the high weight, high base speed, inability to ambush, and extreme difficulty in open aiming. While lance bases are certainly a popular choice among the polearmer subculture, you certainly don't see the masses flocking to polearms specfically to use a lance above all other weapon types.
Are you basing that statement solely on the DF on the lance? In my experience, when a mechanic is unbalanced in favor of the player, people tend to gravitate toward it. Examples of this are DESs triple training in spells during GS3, the hide/ambush style of hunting used by every melee and some pure professions during GS3, etc.
The high DF of lance based weapons is offset by the high weight, high base speed, inability to ambush, and extreme difficulty in open aiming. While lance bases are certainly a popular choice among the polearmer subculture, you certainly don't see the masses flocking to polearms specfically to use a lance above all other weapon types.
ICEWHITE
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 04:21 PM CST
<<While lance bases are certainly a popular choice among the polearmer subculture, you certainly don't see the masses flocking to polearms specfically to use a lance above all other weapon types.
"Popular" is a bit of an understatement. The vast majority of polearm users is closer to the mark.
Mechanically unbalanced is also right on as far as I'm concerned.
Since it seems we are stuck with this as is I still think they should drop the RT of awl-pike based weapons to base 8. Awl-pikes are "weaker" than the lance in the current implementations but are largely ignored unless someone wants to use a lighter weapon (physically).
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
"Popular" is a bit of an understatement. The vast majority of polearm users is closer to the mark.
Mechanically unbalanced is also right on as far as I'm concerned.
Since it seems we are stuck with this as is I still think they should drop the RT of awl-pike based weapons to base 8. Awl-pikes are "weaker" than the lance in the current implementations but are largely ignored unless someone wants to use a lighter weapon (physically).
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
LANDRYL4
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 04:35 PM CST
>Awl-pikes are "weaker" than the lance in the current implementations but are largely ignored unless someone wants to use a lighter weapon (physically).
Except that awl-pikes seem to disregard any and all weight modifiers for everything I've tested them with, namely hurling and truehand. A 15lb awl-pike, for all intents and purposes, seems to be the same as a 5lb awl-pike.
Currently, I see no real reason other then style/RP to use an awl-pike over a lance. Gordd still carries one around, but then again, his normal loadout is 2 lances (bonded one and a blessable for non-corp), 1 awl-pike (ice flares for skayls and the Eye), 1 jeddart-axe (for knockout flaring hurling goodness), and 1 trident (blessable for corpreal). So while my lances do get the majority of the action, there's certainly a reason to invest in quality "lessers".
-Gordd
Except that awl-pikes seem to disregard any and all weight modifiers for everything I've tested them with, namely hurling and truehand. A 15lb awl-pike, for all intents and purposes, seems to be the same as a 5lb awl-pike.
Currently, I see no real reason other then style/RP to use an awl-pike over a lance. Gordd still carries one around, but then again, his normal loadout is 2 lances (bonded one and a blessable for non-corp), 1 awl-pike (ice flares for skayls and the Eye), 1 jeddart-axe (for knockout flaring hurling goodness), and 1 trident (blessable for corpreal). So while my lances do get the majority of the action, there's certainly a reason to invest in quality "lessers".
-Gordd
XYGON
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 04:47 PM CST
> Currently, I see no real reason other then style/RP to use an awl-pike over a lance. Gordd still carries one around, but then again, his normal loadout is 2 lances (bonded one and a blessable for non-corp), 1 awl-pike (ice flares for skayls and the Eye), 1 jeddart-axe (for knockout flaring hurling goodness), and 1 trident (blessable for corpreal). So while my lances do get the majority of the action, there's certainly a reason to invest in quality "lessers".
My gods, I'd fall over! I carry my bonded cold-flaring lance and a shield. The rest is Voln Fu. I have a concussion flaring lance, too, but right now I can't hit the head of the things I'm hunting.
Xygon
http://www.playershops.com
My gods, I'd fall over! I carry my bonded cold-flaring lance and a shield. The rest is Voln Fu. I have a concussion flaring lance, too, but right now I can't hit the head of the things I'm hunting.
Xygon
http://www.playershops.com
GANDHIKAHN
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 05:33 PM CST
>The vast majority of polearm users is closer to the mark. Mechanically unbalanced is also right on as far as I'm concerned.
And how do the number of polearmers compare to OHE or THW? Also, would you please elaborate on how lance bases are unbalanced given the drawbacks I've mentioned previously? Unbalanced vs the awl-pike? Sure and I would support a re-evaluation of awl-pikes. Unbalanced cross all weapon types? No.
And how do the number of polearmers compare to OHE or THW? Also, would you please elaborate on how lance bases are unbalanced given the drawbacks I've mentioned previously? Unbalanced vs the awl-pike? Sure and I would support a re-evaluation of awl-pikes. Unbalanced cross all weapon types? No.
ACMEGAMER
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 05:45 PM CST
Icewhite covered, I also feel that claidhmores are unbalanced as well, mechanically speaking.
Jim
Jim
| "Bush told the truth. Hell froze." |
| - William Gibson |
| "Help! Trapped in a text adventure!" |
| - Marc Laidlaw |
ACMEGAMER
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 05:46 PM CST
| Currently, I see no real reason other then style/RP to use an awl-pike over a lance. Gordd still carries one around, but then again, his normal loadout is 2 lances (bonded one and a blessable for non-corp), 1 awl-pike (ice flares for skayls and the Eye), 1 jeddart-axe (for knockout flaring hurling goodness), and 1 trident (blessable for corpreal). So while my lances do get the majority of the action, there's certainly a reason to invest in quality "lessers". |
| -Gordd |
Damn dwarves and giantman. ;p
Some frail elf.
| "Bush told the truth. Hell froze." |
| - William Gibson |
| "Help! Trapped in a text adventure!" |
| - Marc Laidlaw |
WOLFES2
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 06:02 PM CST
Which giantman are you damning this time, Dusty Elf? ;)
I'll refrain from listing my payloads, especially my rogue's, since Gorrd's stuns you (granted his 5 are polearms).
~Galenok
I'll refrain from listing my payloads, especially my rogue's, since Gorrd's stuns you (granted his 5 are polearms).
~Galenok
ICEWHITE
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 06:23 PM CST
<<Also, would you please elaborate on how lance bases are unbalanced given the drawbacks I've mentioned previously?
People specifically plan around the high RT for one. Pump their stats with enhancives, spells, imbeds, etc. and they can easily negate the Rt and weight issues. You can do that with other weapons of course, but by and large the only ones you really need to do it with are weapons like the lance and claidmore.
The lance and claidhmore don't really have any truly "weak" areas. They have consistently good AvD and DF across all armor types in comparison to other weapons in their group (polearm or THW). There are instances where other weapons in the group may be slightly better in either AvD or DF, but it is counteracted in part by the other rating being higher in those instances.
The lance vs. awl-pike is a perfect exmaple of that. The awl-pike has a better DF vs. leather but a markedly weaker AvD against that armor group. Scale class armor is affected similarly, but the AvD difference is less notable.
In the case of puncturing attacks, the Cman Precision is available to all professions and can counter that particular issue. I don't think you originally mentioned that, but I'm throwing it out there anyway.
Claidhmores, on top of their "normal" advantages, can also be ambushed with can they not?
I think EVERY weapon / attack form / hunting style should have a weakness. The weight / RT issue with lances and claids can be easily bypassed. As far as I'm concerned, looking at the numbers, they are unbalanced.
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
People specifically plan around the high RT for one. Pump their stats with enhancives, spells, imbeds, etc. and they can easily negate the Rt and weight issues. You can do that with other weapons of course, but by and large the only ones you really need to do it with are weapons like the lance and claidmore.
| AvD's | Skin | Leather | Scale | Chain | Plate |
| Lance | 35 | 38 37 36 35 | 39 37 35 33 | 53 49 45 41 | 50 44 38 32 |
| Awl-pike | 15 | 20 19 18 17 | 35 33 31 29 | 45 41 37 33 | 50 44 38 32 |
| Claidhmore | 41 | 45 44 43 42 | 44 42 40 38 | 48 44 40 36 | 47 41 35 29 |
| DF's | Skin | Leather | Scale | Chain | Plate |
| Lance | .725 | .526 | .550 | .475 | .350 |
| Awl-pike | .600 | .550 | .575 | .450 | .350 |
| Claidhmore | .625 | .475 | .500 | .350 | .225 |
The lance and claidhmore don't really have any truly "weak" areas. They have consistently good AvD and DF across all armor types in comparison to other weapons in their group (polearm or THW). There are instances where other weapons in the group may be slightly better in either AvD or DF, but it is counteracted in part by the other rating being higher in those instances.
The lance vs. awl-pike is a perfect exmaple of that. The awl-pike has a better DF vs. leather but a markedly weaker AvD against that armor group. Scale class armor is affected similarly, but the AvD difference is less notable.
In the case of puncturing attacks, the Cman Precision is available to all professions and can counter that particular issue. I don't think you originally mentioned that, but I'm throwing it out there anyway.
Claidhmores, on top of their "normal" advantages, can also be ambushed with can they not?
I think EVERY weapon / attack form / hunting style should have a weakness. The weight / RT issue with lances and claids can be easily bypassed. As far as I'm concerned, looking at the numbers, they are unbalanced.
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
ICEWHITE
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 06:41 PM CST
<<The high DF of lance based weapons is offset by the high weight, high base speed, inability to ambush, and extreme difficulty in open aiming. While lance bases are certainly a popular choice among the polearmer subculture, you certainly don't see the masses flocking to polearms specfically to use a lance above all other weapon types.
As far as inablility to ambush and difficulty in open aiming, these are problems shared with all polearms that are used two-handed. The heavier polearms are all difficult to open aim are they not? Lances being the heaviest make them the hardest but do you honestly NEED to aim a lance?
... and I have had people tell me they decided to try polearms so they could use a lance. I don't think any impementation of any sort has ever had "masses flocking to" them, but there are instances that some have done so. Lances have been one of those for a long time. Its the negatives that affect the polearm class as a whole that prevent more from doing so.
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
As far as inablility to ambush and difficulty in open aiming, these are problems shared with all polearms that are used two-handed. The heavier polearms are all difficult to open aim are they not? Lances being the heaviest make them the hardest but do you honestly NEED to aim a lance?
... and I have had people tell me they decided to try polearms so they could use a lance. I don't think any impementation of any sort has ever had "masses flocking to" them, but there are instances that some have done so. Lances have been one of those for a long time. Its the negatives that affect the polearm class as a whole that prevent more from doing so.
Icewhite
Have fun, be true to yourself, tell the rest to go to hell.
HOFMANNM1
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 06:47 PM CST
A point you're leaving out is that it's extremely valuable to be able to aim a weapon, and lances even with maximal training are very, very difficult to aim. This is compounded by the issue of crit type: a maul is way, way more lethal than a claidhmore because a maul user can simply amb head and be guaranteed to be done with the matter (beyond EBP, of course).
To a lesser extent, there's no need to put up with the risk of a lance when I can just aim for an eye with a spear and finish the matter. I say lesser because spears don't pack the punch mauls do versus plate, which is usually where the trouble lies.
-Anathemus' player
To a lesser extent, there's no need to put up with the risk of a lance when I can just aim for an eye with a spear and finish the matter. I say lesser because spears don't pack the punch mauls do versus plate, which is usually where the trouble lies.
-Anathemus' player
THROGG
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 07:14 PM CST
Weakness of claidh: unblessable, cannot hit critters that need magic to be hit ... unless you shell out the bucks for a magic metal claidh.
LMK1707
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 10:07 PM CST
Thanks for the suggestions. My girl uses a spear, not a lance (lance does not fit her personality at all), and is loving tripping critters and whacking 'em with the spear. She is a ranger, also - expensive training plan, but I think an interesting one.
ACMEGAMER
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 10:35 PM CST
>>Which giantman are you damning this time, Dusty Elf? ;)
>>I'll refrain from listing my payloads, especially my rogue's, since Gorrd's stuns you (granted his 5 are polearms).
>>~Galenok
(mutters something about show offs) (grin)
Deadelf
>>I'll refrain from listing my payloads, especially my rogue's, since Gorrd's stuns you (granted his 5 are polearms).
>>~Galenok
(mutters something about show offs) (grin)
Deadelf
| "Bush told the truth. Hell froze." |
| - William Gibson |
| "Help! Trapped in a text adventure!" |
| - Marc Laidlaw |
ACMEGAMER
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 10:46 PM CST
Weakness of claidh: unblessable, cannot hit critters that need magic to be hit ... unless you shell out the bucks for a magic metal claidh. THROGG
Not a factor, mithril claids are cheap and easy to come by. Actually x1 to x2 arent hard or costly to come by rather quickly. If for some reason you hit a dry few months and can't find a x1 or better claidhmore than you can simply use premium points to enchant a normal steel claidhmore once, and now you have your enchanters mark.
One time enchanted claidhmores(invars with the enchanters mark or mithrils usually) go for 2mil to 5 mil. Two time enchanted claidhmores around 7mil to 12 mil. Three time enchanted claidhmores 20mil to 30mil and four time enchanted claidhmores 35mil to 40mil or so. Eonake claidhmores and sanctioned rolaren and ora claidhmores appear to be and have been for some years going for around the same ball park price as their unsanctioned similiar enchanted claidmores.
The rare ones are the x5 and x6 enchanted claidhmores, which number less then half a dozen and probably arent even accessable at this time. As to unblessable, well that's what 1625 is for. It's not about AS when it comes to claidhmores the sheer stun/crit/kill ability of them adds up that all you need is a claidhmore with an echanters mark. Most non Voln squares don't hunt undead anymore than they have to Throgg, I know that might surprise you but its true. Most undead aren't crittable so why bother. I just keep a high enchant two hander that's blessed for invasions of undead if I so choose to bother fighting them or when I have those rare undead hunts.
Or my other two hander has spells they use on undead if they hunt them. Hunting undead by and large for a physical character sucks eggs, physical character meaning an arms user. Most arms users who hunt undead have to because of the vicious cycle/addiction that is Voln and being able to use your symbols. And most of them use Voln fu for most undead.
Jim
Not a factor, mithril claids are cheap and easy to come by. Actually x1 to x2 arent hard or costly to come by rather quickly. If for some reason you hit a dry few months and can't find a x1 or better claidhmore than you can simply use premium points to enchant a normal steel claidhmore once, and now you have your enchanters mark.
One time enchanted claidhmores(invars with the enchanters mark or mithrils usually) go for 2mil to 5 mil. Two time enchanted claidhmores around 7mil to 12 mil. Three time enchanted claidhmores 20mil to 30mil and four time enchanted claidhmores 35mil to 40mil or so. Eonake claidhmores and sanctioned rolaren and ora claidhmores appear to be and have been for some years going for around the same ball park price as their unsanctioned similiar enchanted claidmores.
The rare ones are the x5 and x6 enchanted claidhmores, which number less then half a dozen and probably arent even accessable at this time. As to unblessable, well that's what 1625 is for. It's not about AS when it comes to claidhmores the sheer stun/crit/kill ability of them adds up that all you need is a claidhmore with an echanters mark. Most non Voln squares don't hunt undead anymore than they have to Throgg, I know that might surprise you but its true. Most undead aren't crittable so why bother. I just keep a high enchant two hander that's blessed for invasions of undead if I so choose to bother fighting them or when I have those rare undead hunts.
Or my other two hander has spells they use on undead if they hunt them. Hunting undead by and large for a physical character sucks eggs, physical character meaning an arms user. Most arms users who hunt undead have to because of the vicious cycle/addiction that is Voln and being able to use your symbols. And most of them use Voln fu for most undead.
Jim
| "Bush told the truth. Hell froze." |
| - William Gibson |
| "Help! Trapped in a text adventure!" |
| - Marc Laidlaw |
ARAV
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/06/2006 11:54 PM CST
I am one of those amazingly high agility and dexterity people who use lances.
I cannot mstrike. It takes me ten seconds, I wear LBP.
With my vultite naginata (+10-15 AVD over the lance, blessable) I can mstrike easily, and it's really quite nice to be able to do so.
Which do I use: the lance. But mostly because it's a krol-skulled vultite pike with scripts that I adore. But I assure you: I notice how little I can carry, and how much mstriking hurts, every time I pick up the naginata and can carry a chest without slowing down.
I cannot mstrike. It takes me ten seconds, I wear LBP.
With my vultite naginata (+10-15 AVD over the lance, blessable) I can mstrike easily, and it's really quite nice to be able to do so.
Which do I use: the lance. But mostly because it's a krol-skulled vultite pike with scripts that I adore. But I assure you: I notice how little I can carry, and how much mstriking hurts, every time I pick up the naginata and can carry a chest without slowing down.
GANDHIKAHN
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 06:02 AM CST
>The weight / RT issue with lances and claids can be easily bypassed. As far as I'm concerned, looking at the numbers, they are unbalanced.
I guess that is where we disagree. You are focusing on the benefits of the weapon while dismissing the disadvantages out of hand. I contend that the weight, RT, and aiming issues are not so easily bypassed, else you would see more people taking advantage of the DF and AvD numbers that are so skewed according to your analysis.
Things like enhansives, MIU, and CMAN precision are not free. Even among the races that can achieve the necessary AGIDEX to swing a lance in 5, not everyone is willing to sellout and stack those two stats at the expense of others to get the required threshold at a reasonable level.
As Anathemus pointed out, the importance of opening aim for squares (ie warriors) cannot be overstated. It takes a staggering amount of training to aim a lance with any semblance of accuracy. It's not a fair assessment to say that all two handed polearms share this drawback. A spear can be downright surgical with moderate training. Frankly, I'd bond with a spear over a lance-base if I could find a spear with suitable magical properties. I've heard Menos voice the same opinion previously.
I guess that is where we disagree. You are focusing on the benefits of the weapon while dismissing the disadvantages out of hand. I contend that the weight, RT, and aiming issues are not so easily bypassed, else you would see more people taking advantage of the DF and AvD numbers that are so skewed according to your analysis.
Things like enhansives, MIU, and CMAN precision are not free. Even among the races that can achieve the necessary AGIDEX to swing a lance in 5, not everyone is willing to sellout and stack those two stats at the expense of others to get the required threshold at a reasonable level.
As Anathemus pointed out, the importance of opening aim for squares (ie warriors) cannot be overstated. It takes a staggering amount of training to aim a lance with any semblance of accuracy. It's not a fair assessment to say that all two handed polearms share this drawback. A spear can be downright surgical with moderate training. Frankly, I'd bond with a spear over a lance-base if I could find a spear with suitable magical properties. I've heard Menos voice the same opinion previously.
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 06:34 AM CST
>A spear can be downright surgical with moderate training.
I would disagree. It can be effective, surgical is certainly overstating it.
And believe me, I have a fair amount of training for using a spear and going for the eyes with it. I find I kill on about 1/3 of my shots, the other 2/3 I end up removing the eye without killing it, either with a low level crit due to randomization, or due to two stacked low level crits. In those cases I tend to be there for quite some time, especially against critters that are armored.
That is IMO far from surgical.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
I would disagree. It can be effective, surgical is certainly overstating it.
And believe me, I have a fair amount of training for using a spear and going for the eyes with it. I find I kill on about 1/3 of my shots, the other 2/3 I end up removing the eye without killing it, either with a low level crit due to randomization, or due to two stacked low level crits. In those cases I tend to be there for quite some time, especially against critters that are armored.
That is IMO far from surgical.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
GANDHIKAHN
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 06:41 AM CST
What kind of training at what level are we talking here?
LANDRYL4
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 08:08 AM CST
>What kind of training at what level are we talking here?
Speaking for Gordd (dwarf), level 54-56 (I don't remember);
2x poles
2x thrown
2x CM
1.5x perception
20 ranks ambush
Spears do squat for melee ambushing in 7/10 situations due to being a dwarf. Spears to next to squat in almost all hurled situations due to DF. What would likely take me 2-3 shots with a spear, will take me 1-2 with a JA or higher.
-Gordd
Speaking for Gordd (dwarf), level 54-56 (I don't remember);
2x poles
2x thrown
2x CM
1.5x perception
20 ranks ambush
Spears do squat for melee ambushing in 7/10 situations due to being a dwarf. Spears to next to squat in almost all hurled situations due to DF. What would likely take me 2-3 shots with a spear, will take me 1-2 with a JA or higher.
-Gordd
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 08:56 AM CST
And Seablaede is pretty dang similar, Level 35, except 2x in ambush and 1x in CM. My experiences match Gordd's, and for the same reason, the DF is the same hurled and melee essentially for the two handed spear, in fact that is a point of contention for many hurlers as using it two handed makes a large difference in DF, when in fact that one probably shouldn't be to possible for hurling.
That being said the spear is sadly one of the better weapons with the thrown RT 'bonus' for lack of a better way of describing it, Gordd I am sure understands what I am referring to.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
That being said the spear is sadly one of the better weapons with the thrown RT 'bonus' for lack of a better way of describing it, Gordd I am sure understands what I am referring to.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 08:57 AM CST
I take that back, Seablaede is only 1.5x in Ambush at the moment I believe, I have to check on that, I know in the past I have had him up to 2x and didn't notice a worthwhile difference, thus dropped him down as his training plan is quite expensive enough as it is.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
HOFMANNM1
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 11:53 AM CST
>Not a factor, mithril claids are cheap
Cheap is a relative term, of course. I couldn't buy a 5mil item right now if I wanted to, and I'm pretty stingy in-game.
>you can simply use premium points to enchant a normal steel claidhmore once, and now you have your enchanters mark.
Not everyone is premium, though, making it a little less simple.
Because I had the spreadsheet open for another topic, here's the polearm base weights:
lance: 15 (by 3 pounds the heaviest weapon in the game)
trident: 12 (???)
jeddart-axe, hammer of Kai, halberd: 9
awl-pike: 8 (!!!)
javelin: 5
pilum: 5
I don't have a spear's, but I'm pretty sure it's between 5 and 8. Weight in hand is a very crucial component to mstrike recovery time.
In closing I'd like to note that level 35 is pretty low as far as aiming ability is concerned. My character couldn't aim his falchion too reliably at level 35 either, but I would say falchions are quite aimable with 2x CM training in the fullness of time.
-Anathemus' player
p.s.: HAHAHAHA @ dwarves. :)
Cheap is a relative term, of course. I couldn't buy a 5mil item right now if I wanted to, and I'm pretty stingy in-game.
>you can simply use premium points to enchant a normal steel claidhmore once, and now you have your enchanters mark.
Not everyone is premium, though, making it a little less simple.
Because I had the spreadsheet open for another topic, here's the polearm base weights:
lance: 15 (by 3 pounds the heaviest weapon in the game)
trident: 12 (???)
jeddart-axe, hammer of Kai, halberd: 9
awl-pike: 8 (!!!)
javelin: 5
pilum: 5
I don't have a spear's, but I'm pretty sure it's between 5 and 8. Weight in hand is a very crucial component to mstrike recovery time.
In closing I'd like to note that level 35 is pretty low as far as aiming ability is concerned. My character couldn't aim his falchion too reliably at level 35 either, but I would say falchions are quite aimable with 2x CM training in the fullness of time.
-Anathemus' player
p.s.: HAHAHAHA @ dwarves. :)
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 12:24 PM CST
>In closing I'd like to note that level 35 is pretty low as far as aiming ability is concerned. My character couldn't aim his falchion too reliably at level 35 either, but I would say falchions are quite aimable with 2x CM training in the fullness of time.
Yet I can aim any other weapon perfectly well. It is only the largest weapons he has problems with, be it a two handed spear or awl-pike, or lance.
In fact it is a common occurance for me when I get annoyed at bothering with broken weapon styles(Thrown) or whatever to pull out a katar and go at it ambushing because I am accurate with it.
I will also say that 1x in CMan with no ambush allows me to aim me dual longswords strokes decently well since about 40 trains, probably earlier, that was just around the start of when I started using open aiming with him. My rogue has that full 1x in Cman, plus another 1.5x in ambush, and the 2x+ in perception(If that actually makes a difference in aiming, not sure myself), on top of all that. I think it is safe to say the rogue(Seablaede) is somewhat more accurate.
And I believe the base weight for the spear is around 8 lbs. Of course as Gordd pointed out, that doesn't make to much of a difference for lances when hurling anyways apparently.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
Yet I can aim any other weapon perfectly well. It is only the largest weapons he has problems with, be it a two handed spear or awl-pike, or lance.
In fact it is a common occurance for me when I get annoyed at bothering with broken weapon styles(Thrown) or whatever to pull out a katar and go at it ambushing because I am accurate with it.
I will also say that 1x in CMan with no ambush allows me to aim me dual longswords strokes decently well since about 40 trains, probably earlier, that was just around the start of when I started using open aiming with him. My rogue has that full 1x in Cman, plus another 1.5x in ambush, and the 2x+ in perception(If that actually makes a difference in aiming, not sure myself), on top of all that. I think it is safe to say the rogue(Seablaede) is somewhat more accurate.
And I believe the base weight for the spear is around 8 lbs. Of course as Gordd pointed out, that doesn't make to much of a difference for lances when hurling anyways apparently.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
DELPHIUS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 12:30 PM CST
>And I believe the base weight for the spear is around 8 lbs. Of course as Gordd pointed out, that doesn't make to much of a difference for lances when hurling anyways apparently.
15-30 Pounds of weapons for the same damage as 16-24 pounds in spears is what I was referring to, don't think that was very clear. So in the end on the top end of both you are looking at a 6 pound difference.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
15-30 Pounds of weapons for the same damage as 16-24 pounds in spears is what I was referring to, don't think that was very clear. So in the end on the top end of both you are looking at a 6 pound difference.
Seablade and Seablaede
The Ashrim
KENHINDS
Re: Polearm Training Plan
12/07/2006 01:37 PM CST
I don't use my lance enough to care yet what changes you get implemented, but zou keep your hands and GM hands off of my claids. O)
Ken
Ken
