I'd like to suggest adding in a level 0 bonus of 1 AsG for monks to 1202 Iron Skin. Currently the progression for monk's pseudo armor is quite low for a square. Here are the armor's a monk can get into if they 1x Mental Lore, Transformation (which few rarely do at lower levels due to tp cost):

lvl 0 - AsG 6 full leather
lvl 5 - AsG 8 double leather
lvl 15 - AsG 10 curbouilli(scale)
lvl 30 - AsG 12 brigandine (scale)
lvl 50 - AsG 14 double chain
lvl 75 - AsG 16 chain hauberk
lvl 75+ with 105 lores - AsG 17 mbp (plate)
lvl 75+ with 140 lores - AsG 18 augmented plate

So the earliest level for scale is level 15, chain level 50 and plate is theoretically 75 with lore enhancives (most will be later since you need +30 in lore enhancives).

With a level 0 monk bonus of 1 AsG here's what the progression looks like:

lvl 0 - AsG 7 reinforced leather
lvl 5 - AsG 9 leather breasplate (scale)
lvl 15 - AsG 11 studded leather (scale)
lvl 30 - AsG 13 chain mail
lvl 50 - AsG 15 augmented chain
lvl 75 - ASG 17 mbp (plate)
lvl 75+ with 105 lores - AsG 18 augmented plate
lvl 75+ with 140 lores - ASG 19 half plate

With this change the earliest level for scale is level 5 (was 15), chain is level 30 (was 50) and plate is still level 75 (however it does not require finding +30 in lore enhancives).

These still require a player to 1x Mental Lore, Transformation at a cost of 12 mtp's per which is a significant investment, there are probably many who would rather spend the points elsewhere. However it at least gives the monk a bit more parity with rogues and monks when it comes to armor progression (although they can still far outstrip monks when it comes to getting into chain and plate) and it gives them plate at level 75 without needing a crazy amount of lore enhancives that most won't be able to access.

Yes, you can be in scale at level 15 as a monk with only 5 ranks of ML: Transformation. My post was about the effects of being 1x in ML:T.

I'm not certain as to your point? If its that you are happy with 1202 as implemented at your current level of 15, well I can understand your point of view. My monk was also happy with it at that level. Then I kept leveling and became not as happy with its current form. :)

If you're not putting every last point into spells to get to 1220 at 20 then you are doing it wrong. Again I do have sympathy with you since my original plan was to .5x spells and 1x in ML:T, too. That plan hit the reality of level 20+ hunting. You'll desperately want the increased ds from 1216/1220 and even the minimal td increase from spell training with 1208. That's not even mentioning the benefits of 1209/1214.

Now you compare us to a 1x armor training square, I'm assuming a caster rogue? I'd like to point out that the rogue would also be taking more spell levels than a square is supposed to do. Also the rogue has the option to 2x if he/she chooses.

The rogue is only spending 5ptp's a rank for his armor training, monks are spending 12mtp's a rank for ML:T. 150 ptp's versus 360ptp's for 30 ranks. It doesn't seem like such an even comparison when you look at the training costs.

Now remember, I'm only suggesting a 1 rank innate bump for monks. So if implemented this would put us in brig at level 30 with only 15 ranks of ML:T which is 180mtp's. Huh, that's actually alot closer of a comparison now.

The main thrust of my suggestion was to allow us to get into mbp at level 75 while still requiring monks to be 1x in ML:T. Right now it requires us to be that plus have an unearthly and I would dare say unattainable amount of ML:T enhancives (I just haven't seen any around) until post 90's at least. Its also a happy coincidence that it brings the costs for getting into scale and chain more into line with the other squares in terms of cost and level attainable.

The costs for mbp are 400ptp for a rogue at level 78 and 900-1212mtp for a monk at level 75-100 depending on if the monk has anywhere between +30 to +4 ranks of ML:T enhancives to get to the 105 rank bonus(and assuming the rogue is still 1x armor). This suggestion would bring the cost down to the minimum of 900mtp's which is still a crapload more than either of the other squares will spend plus they'll have the CvA advantages of the real armor.

I just can't imagine anyone being against this once they look at the numbers. Heck its not even that much of a mechanical bump due to the static CvA. :)

<If you're not putting every last point into spells to get to 1220 at 20 then you are doing it wrong. Again I do have sympathy with you since my original plan was to .5x spells and 1x in ML:T, too. That plan hit the reality of level 20+ hunting. You'll desperately want the increased ds from 1216/1220 and even the minimal td increase from spell training with 1208. That's not even mentioning the benefits of 1209/1214.>

Either you're not training 1x in TWC, your gear isn't enchanted, or you're trying to uphunt things you shouldn't if you're having DS problems in yer 20s. My level 22 monk (who's only .5x in spells) only has DS problems when something 7 levels above him wanders in and swings at his head (stupid adventurers guild likes sending him to cave bears too much). Even then the critters usually only get the better of me if 1207 fails to knock them down on the first cast or I don't have time to cast it.

Spells are a different story, but there isn't anything on the minor mental list that will really help me with those anyway.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Icemule worked for me at that level. Level 24-26 were the critical point. I died an awful lot between 22 and 24 but by level 26 I had my tactics pretty much sorted and there's not been anything thats given me much trouble since. Once I got 1220 I hardly got wounded any more let alone killed unless I did something tactically silly.

At level 20, wanting more Ironskin made sense to me, but once into the 30s I didn't really need to use it at all, let alone worry about what exact AsG it gives, and at level 50 I'm certainly not training lore to boost it, though at early levels I thought I would be by now.

Well yes, if you 100% of the time disable/kill a critter before it attacks/casts/maneuvers on you then I guess you don't ever have to wear armor or spells. :)

Now, what about those of us with a less than 100% record at doing this? Personally I recommend wearing armor and spells, particularly in this case a spell that creates armor with a simple 1 rank innate base increase for the monk class so that we'll at least be somewhat in line with the other squares. We'll still be the worst of the three, but that's okay.

Or who knows, maybe I'm the only monk in the world that gets hit since I seem to be the lone voice here lol. My monk's ds is high enough that it only happens when he's disabled via spell or maneuver, but that seems to be happening more often as he approaches 30. At least his redux finally kicked in!

1x spells up to 1220 is a separate issue, but I'm a convert to it. There's no way I'd struggle up to it with .5x spells (and you do get a small TD bump from 1208 with spell training). In fact once I flesh out a couple of skills I'm trying to decide on whether heading up the 100's or getting 30 ML:T for torso chain at 50 (he's got 6 ranks now, 1 extra for the 1 UAF boost from 1209 heh). I'm leaning toward spells though the chain df's would be nice.

>Or who knows, maybe I'm the only monk in the world that gets hit since I seem to be the lone voice here lol. My monk's ds is high enough that it only happens when he's disabled via spell or maneuver, but that seems to be happening more often as he approaches 30.

You are throwing 1207 on everything before it has a chance to get an action? Unless a critter has immunity to 1207 you don't ever need to let it do anything and there aren't that many critters with 1207 immunity.

I can't say exactly, since the majority of my hunting has been from a CS based pure, but in my experience, enemies will arrive in defensive, stance off to attack, but then as they are wounded, they proceed to tank back up again . . . but their offense does not follow suit. It seemed to me like they have an emergency only method of being full offensive AS and full defensive DS and EBP, but only when significantly wounded.
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>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"

>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."

>I'm simply expressing incredulity when I'm told that armor and spells are not important for doing so

I don't think anyone is saying that spells aren't important, but points in harness so you can spam 1207 are far more important than points in lore for extra Ironskin AsG.

I don't recommend trying to control a room of fresh critters with 1207, because the time to cast it on one eats up the time you need to set the other up and you can end up needing to use it half a dozen times on 2 critters before you get position. However, if more come to the party once the previous ones are set up, they get krynched. Punch leg is a pretty effective knockdown once you have good position and critters don't get up if you mangled their leg and will often waste actions trying and failing if you merely broke it.

I'll actually be a little more specific with my perspective on your suggestion.

It sounds to me that the spell could use a slight tweak. However, I think your suggested tweak is too significant. A lot of your cited reasons were that other squares were getting into heavy armor at X level, and Monks couldn't keep up. Thats completely fine. That said, it was designed so that MBP was only possible with Enhancives for a reason. What I would support would be a downtweak to the requisite lore for the various bonuses UP TO MBP, which I would leave as it is. If the issue is that Monks aren't keeping up with their Armor use compared to their peers, thats fine, but plate was clearly placed "just out of reach" for a reason. This is part of the justification for them being able to use full chain with no penalties or hindrance, and have such crazy Dodge costs.

That there are other issues with the profession that need to be addressed, I totally agree. Making MBP possible without enhancives isn't going to fix those problems. Letting them get into certain ASGs a little earlier though? That won't hurt much, and it seems reasonable.

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>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"

>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."

On a further note to your perspective on 1202, monks already have a built in balance to the bonuses of no hinderance or maneuver penalty which is the lack of CvA. Heck its the reason most squares go for plate anyway.

Right now monks don't have the ability to even "1x" in armor via 1202. The other squares have options, rogues can 1x armor and hide/ambush, warriors can 3x armor/redux better. Monks that use the UAC have to stand in the open at a less than 1x armor path. My suggestion would only bring 1202 in line to a 1x armor training like other squares and balance its bonuses with the reduced CvA and increased tp costs (12mtp vs 5ptp or 2ptp).

And heck it isn't even much of a boost as has been pointed out. It just seems modest to me.

Although as I said earlier maybe an alternative would be to lower Mental Lore training costs instead. 8-10 mtp?

So do you just not hunt any spell casters? I get hit when they can stun/web/incapacitate me, but otherwise yeah my DS is great. I still need armor for the times when I'm popped by spells or maneuvers from bandits.