>Expand on this a bit? What specific situation are you being presented with that 10 seconds isn't enough?

It triggers on the death of a critter and it takes more than 10 seconds for you to find a new one?

>These two items are core design and generally won't be changed to allow small exceptions, like this lore benefit, as they would explicitly violate the core design intent. Any suggestions should be made to work with core design, not bypass it. Unless your issue is with the core design itself, at which point it's a different topic.

>So, you've provided some analysis of the usefulness of the benefit. I'm generally feeling that you desire for it to be improved, what specifically?

>This spell can generally be broken down into three parts: duration, frequency, and intensity (crit weighting). Virilneus mentioned a problem with duration and threw out a value that he felt it should be, though he didn't provide evidence that such a change was warranted.

I thought it was obvious.

The bottom line is an effect that occurs so rarely should be more beneficial. As is, because of crit randomization and low duration, even when you rarely trigger it, you could end up with NO benefit, at all. Either you don't find a critter (or a critter you can hit with the prerequisite specific spell) within 10 seconds, or you hit hard enough that through crit randomization the bonus is eaten up entirely.

The duration should be increased, then here are my suggestions, repeated concisely for your benefit:

1. Apply the crit benefit post randomization.
2. Only apply the crit benefit on a cast where you would benefit from it (where you're not already getting the high end of randomization), this may be somewhat complex to implement.
3. Switch it from a crit to an AS/CS bonus - I don't really like this, I think the crit effect is more interesting since so many things already effect AS/CS, but it would be more useful even if it would seem like a rerun of existing abilities
4. Switch it to a secondary flare akin to a runestaff flare - again, a rerun, but more useful.

The goal is this Viduus, when you trigger it, ever so rarely, the player should always get a benefit, even if slight, or near enough as makes no difference. If you say that seed10 and this +1 crit rank benefit is what balance calls for, so be it. I won't say to make it seed5 or +3 crit ranks. But I will say, lets make sure we actually see a benefit from it, and it isn't just pointless messaging, like the points in Who Line is it Anyway. It feels a bit like a holographic fireplace, might look nice, but no real heat.

>(re: E/P/B) This shouldn't be an issue. The additional weighting should only come into play when a spell makes contact. So fumbles, and ebp, or just outright misses due to warding and AS/DS resolution shouldn't waste your charge.

Ah good! Didn't realize that. Though as I said to Balekia, that's one of the smaller of the problematic elements.

>>D) Doing enough endroll to cause a crit.

>>E) A further 40% - 60% chance roll through crit randomization.

These two items are core design and generally won't be changed to allow small exceptions, like this lore benefit, as they would explicitly violate the core design intent. Any suggestions should be made to work with core design, not bypass it. Unless your issue is with the core design itself, at which point it's a different topic.

Well tbh D isn't usually an issue with bolts. Our high DFs tend to make it pretty easy to get the initial crit ranking.
Your comments on E, while I understand them, are a little bit of a bummer. I think bypassing crit randomization would be the most elegant solution. It would help the effect in several ways and result in a unique effect that is interesting and useful to bolt efficiency, which is a serious problem with the class design.
While I can see crit randomization as a necessary move to prevent ambush from being the ultimate power in the universe, it does seriously punish anyone trying to kill with crits using a finite resource (mana).

I'm going to go ahead and assume having some effect that moves the available body-targets away from the limbs (ie: no hands/arms/legs) would also fall under this umbrella. Which is too bad, because that would be another unique + useful way to go.

But I think you've made the limitations clear, so I will move my prodding into a (hopefully) more useful direction. Thank you for the feedback. (This is the type of very specific GM feedback that really helps the suggestion process)

This spell can generally be broken down into three parts: duration, frequency, and intensity (crit weighting). Virilneus mentioned a problem with duration and threw out a value that he felt it should be, though he didn't provide evidence that such a change was warranted.

Duration
Ok, so lets get into the nitty gritty. While I've heard the others mention duration, I would say that's the least important of the 3. You could make the duration infinite and it wouldn't change my analysis numbers since I didn't even take the possibility of it expiring into account.

Intensity
Now this one is tempting, but I think it's a red herring. Lets go to the most extreme example to see why this isn't the route to go. We could give this ability maximum (+90) crit weighting and I still think it wouldn't be the greatest move, here's why:
With our high bolt DFs getting to crit 9 base is easiest out of all AS users (aside from maybe paladins with their insane AS growth). But our problems come from the fact that it hits a random place.
With a 43% chance of hitting a death-possible area (I don't have whirlin's chart in front of me, but it's something like that), and then again rolled through crit randomization that gives between 40% chance to kill on body/ab shots and 80% on head/neck.
So you still suffer from the same problems, even with +9 crit ranks (obviously way out of the realm of possibility). Even if every enhanced hit was a crit9, you're looking at 3% crit kills.
[.60 (Crit kill chance once hitting a possibly fatal locaion) * .43 (location) * .12 (proc chance) = 3% odds of getting a crit kill]

Now am I saying this would be a bad effect? No, not saying that. Even when you don't crit kill you get some additional hp damage from the additional crit ranks, and this would allow you to benefit greatly from using smaller bolts. But I think it illustrates how even extremely powerful CW boosts are mitigated by being put through several randomization wringers in a row.

Before I move on, if you want to give this effect +8 crit ranks, I'm on board :D
Somehow I don't think that's gonna fly so...


Frequency
Here I think is the best place to do work since Post-Randomization is off the table.

I'm going to start with a psychological, rather than mathematical argument. What does lore represent? To me, it's intense study in a specialized field resulting in expertise. As such, I'm not a huge fan of doing tiny percentage chances at things. I feel that is a lot more representative of an amateur, bungling his way to success.
"Oh, a burst! Can I do that again? No, it was a fluke."
Doesn't exactly scream expertise to me.
Now I realize this isn't a strong mechanical argument, but it's this tiny percentage theme all throughout ELR that has rubbed me the wrong way from the get-go.
Contrast this effect with demonology lore raising 740 success to 100%: "I am an expert in this field and do not fail." That's a strong basis for character identity and an inducement for the player to train in that lore.

Now back to frequency. If I had free reign, I would honestly say make it 100% for 2x EL:F users. I don't even train in fire, and this wouldn't change my training path, but that's where I think it should go.
Even at 100%, it still gets put through the crit randomizer and the end result is 32% chance at having any effect, not accounting for overkill.
[If I were to implement this, I'd probably make it % = Ranks/2, rather than utilize diminishing returns]

Even though I don't think that's OP, and would fit my argument for expertise as a result of extreme lore training, I will give an alternate suggestion. Assuming you were aiming at 12% chance of "having a useful effect", we can backtrace from there and get: .12/.32 = .375 -> 38% proc chance would result in a 12% effect chance, not accounting for overkill.

Even if nothing changes, I really do appreciate you taking the time to read this.
-Keith

>When I request for you (generic you) to strengthen/clarify your point, it isn't always because I'm dense, sometimes it's to make sure all potential angles are covered. If you have a strong argument, then it means I have a strong argument. In this specific instance, none of my testing of the spell actually occurred in a hunting ground with a slow gen rate, I also didn't have competition for gens - problems of sandbox testing. So it's just a situation I missed in testing and haven't personally run into on my pc. When you brought it up initially I was mostly curious if it was a sorcerer specific issue.

Fair enough... it is in some respects worse for sorcerers. DC is not a universal tool (works like crap on nonmagical critters), and it is the only spell we really have to reliably make use of the 425 benefit (outside of 111 with fire attuned sorcerers - maybe maelstrom if you couldn't non instantaneous spells, which I don't). But I think the issue of not having a target within 10 seconds would affect all hunters to a greater or lesser degree...except warcamp hunters of course.

>I'm not opposed to smarter application of benefits, I'd have to see how complicated this type of approach would be.

It'll probably take some conditional statements in the middle of the combat resolution calculations, which probably isn't desirable. But maybe...

I believe the way it works is: Every combat spell you cast has a chance to proc the effect (ie: charge you up). Then the next spell you cast of your attuned element, before it expires in 10sec, will have +1 crit rank added to it.

That's a good one, Keith.

<< I'm still a little clear on when this is supposed to activate. After I cast 425....is there a chance to activate after every attuned spell? Or spells and flares? Or just one chance after I cast 425? >>

I had it activate more than once during a single hunt when casting Balefire (713). I cast spell 425 once before starting the hunt. Balefire is a plasma spell, so it obviously does not have to be an elemental spell. After it activated, I tried incanting 415, but that did not work. I was hunting bandits, and it is possible that the bandits were hidden when I incanted 415. It surprised me so much that I couldn't think of how take advantage of it in 10 seconds.

I appears that it is still not activating for CS spells. The GMs posted that they are aware of that issue and are working on it.

I would like to ask if it's intended that other professions may not get the full benefit here. As a sorcerer with 10 ranks in fire lore I can see 425 proc for the heavy weighting on my next cast but as a sorcerer (and I assume many sorcerers are similar) I am attuned air. I see I can use Fire Spirit (111) if I was fire attuned but i'm not. What options do non-fire attuned sorcerers have when they see 425 crit weighting go off?

Sounds like your option would be 415 if air attuned.

I dunno what Sorcerer 400 circle CS normally looks like to know if that's even viable.

Rishi
- Player of Kembal

---

Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Would 425 work with air flares on a weapon/runestaff?

<< Would 425 work with air flares on a weapon/runestaff? >>

Yes. Viduus listed weapon flares as being affected.

Hm...ok not sure why i thought it would only be bolts.

<< There was an issue with warding spells, I'm looking into it. >> --Viduus

I am still never receiving the "energizes" message when casting warding spells.

Also, is there any messaging to indicate that the 425 flare boost has been applied to the next cast?

>{Attuned element} elemental energy energizes you.

Thank you, I found that. I meant this, which I found too but not on the wiki:

The elemental energy surrounding you amplifies the attack!