I've been spending time taking my understanding of locksmithing to the next level by better understanding the formulas, ranges with different picks, etc.
Based on the information I've found so far I think there must be an additional element to self-lored picking formula that isn't represented in the current calculation.
BasePickingSkill = Picking Locks Bonus + Dex Bonus
SelfLorePickingBonus = TRUNC(Level / 2) + TRUNC(Picking Locks Bonus / 10) + TRUNC(Dex Bonus / 2) + X ### Cannot exceed BasePickingSkill
SelfLorePickingSkill = LockPickModifier * TRUNC(BasePickingSkill + SelfLorepPickingBonus)
X = Based on an old note from a GM Procell post I am substituting a 5 here (based on his statement that the formula as listed will result in about 5-10 below actual result) but what I am finding is that that I can actually pick locks (in neutral conditions) that are 20+ higher than my calculated maximum. I could obviously just increase my constant but I am wondering / hoping someone may provide some additional insight to what might be missing. For the characters I am doing my testing with both of them have only 4-5 ranks in Minor Elt. so I'm not thinking this is driving any huge increase in bonus.
Any thoughts / insight would be appreciated!
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
PEREGRINEFALCON
RATHBONER
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/16/2017 11:00 PM CDT
>X = Based on an old note from a GM Procell post I am substituting a 5 here (based on his statement that the formula as listed will result in about 5-10 below actual result) but what I am finding is that that I can actually pick locks (in neutral conditions) that are 20+ higher than my calculated maximum. I could obviously just increase my constant but I am wondering / hoping someone may provide some additional insight to what might be missing. For the characters I am doing my testing with both of them have only 4-5 ranks in Minor Elt. so I'm not thinking this is driving any huge increase in bonus.
Porcell wasn't a GM.
I think Tsoran reckoned it was spells/10 for the MnE effect.
I have two theories about X. One is that its racial and Porcell gets a lower bonus because he's a giant, and the other is that 5-10 is disinformation and Porcell actually gets a touch over 20 too.
Porcell wasn't a GM.
I think Tsoran reckoned it was spells/10 for the MnE effect.
I have two theories about X. One is that its racial and Porcell gets a lower bonus because he's a giant, and the other is that 5-10 is disinformation and Porcell actually gets a touch over 20 too.
JGALT22
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/17/2017 08:51 AM CDT
With Porcell's formula if I use dexbonus/2 and x=0, I get a true result from 14 of my last 29 lore attempts. Using x=5, I get a true result on 19. Using x=10, I get a true result on 24. Using x=20, I get a true result on 19.
Using x=0 and a flat dexbonus, I get a true result on all 29.
Using x=0 and a flat dexbonus, I get a true result on all 29.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/17/2017 09:34 AM CDT
Thanks for the feedback - both of my rogues (halfing and dark elf) have a significant DEX bonus. I'm going to adjust the formula to Minor Spell Ranks / 10 (which will have no impact for either), change from (Dex Bonus / 2) to (Dex Bonus) and eliminate the X factor entirely and then continue observing results going forward.
An updated version of ;lockmaster will be available later this morning reflecting the new formula for anyone that wants to test it out. I'll add a note to the ;repo info area stating the above changes (it will be version 1.2).
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
An updated version of ;lockmaster will be available later this morning reflecting the new formula for anyone that wants to test it out. I'll add a note to the ;repo info area stating the above changes (it will be version 1.2).
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
RATHBONER
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/17/2017 10:02 AM CDT
>Using x=0 and a flat dexbonus, I get a true result on all 29.
Its possible that the formula should be DEX rather than DEX/2 + 20. I had DEX at 100 before I was doing much in the way of formula checking, and I've never verified the effect of DEX on lore.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/17/2017 12:33 PM CDT
Updated formulas in ;lockmaster. I'll run with these for a few weeks and observe results (plus a few other folks are testing as well).
Picking Locks
baselock = Picking Locks bonus + Dex bonus
selflorelock = baselock + (Level / 2) + (Picking Locks bonus / 10) + Dex bonus + (Minor Elemental Ranks / 10)
#lore mod bonus cannot be greater than pick lock skill bonus
Note: I noted a formula error in the prior version of ;lockmaster where I was using Picking Locks Ranks vs. Bonus in the lore calculation which was creating an even more conservative (i.e. inaccurate) self lore result.
Disarming Traps
basetrap = Disarming Traps bonus + Dex bonus
selfloretrap = basetrap + (Level / 2) + (Disarming Traps bonus / 10) + Dex bonus + (Minor Elemental Ranks / 10)
#lore mod bonus cannot be greater than disarm skill bonus
I'll see about rolling up someone with a Dex penalty (or at least close to 0) to do some testing around the Dex component of the formula. Won't be a high priority for me though! Too bad we don't have negative enhancives available to make this easier to test! At some point I'll also do some testing around the (Minor Elt. / 10) with my wizard.
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
Picking Locks
baselock = Picking Locks bonus + Dex bonus
selflorelock = baselock + (Level / 2) + (Picking Locks bonus / 10) + Dex bonus + (Minor Elemental Ranks / 10)
#lore mod bonus cannot be greater than pick lock skill bonus
Note: I noted a formula error in the prior version of ;lockmaster where I was using Picking Locks Ranks vs. Bonus in the lore calculation which was creating an even more conservative (i.e. inaccurate) self lore result.
Disarming Traps
basetrap = Disarming Traps bonus + Dex bonus
selfloretrap = basetrap + (Level / 2) + (Disarming Traps bonus / 10) + Dex bonus + (Minor Elemental Ranks / 10)
#lore mod bonus cannot be greater than disarm skill bonus
I'll see about rolling up someone with a Dex penalty (or at least close to 0) to do some testing around the Dex component of the formula. Won't be a high priority for me though! Too bad we don't have negative enhancives available to make this easier to test! At some point I'll also do some testing around the (Minor Elt. / 10) with my wizard.
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
RATHBONER
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/17/2017 03:03 PM CDT
I should have enough enhancives to tell the difference between a DEX and a DEX/2 effect. Maybe next time I get a box thats a good locksize for running tests.
JGALT22
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/21/2017 11:52 PM CDT
Lore bonus = trunc(skill/10)+trunc(lvl/2)+dexbonus no longer has a 100% success rate for me after Wed. night. Unless lore bonus doesn't have to be a whole number, I know that I got 57 lore bonus when I was lvl 25, 150 pick skill, 29 dex bonus and 59 lore bonus at 25, 179, 29. Possible solutions:
1. It's flat dexbonus plus a small unknown factor giving me 1 lore bonus, possibly ceiling(elemental spells known/10), or
2. It's trunc(dexbonus/2) plus an unknown factor giving me 16 lore bonus which, if it's elem. spells, would be elem. spells*4 which smells bad, or
3. any of a thousand other possibilities including rounding vs. truncation vs. ceiling plus one or more other unknown factors
Would it be possible to add a ;lockmasterdebug version allowing us to change around lorebonus variables with a debug line after a lore attempt that shows the current formula and variable values?
1. It's flat dexbonus plus a small unknown factor giving me 1 lore bonus, possibly ceiling(elemental spells known/10), or
2. It's trunc(dexbonus/2) plus an unknown factor giving me 16 lore bonus which, if it's elem. spells, would be elem. spells*4 which smells bad, or
3. any of a thousand other possibilities including rounding vs. truncation vs. ceiling plus one or more other unknown factors
Would it be possible to add a ;lockmasterdebug version allowing us to change around lorebonus variables with a debug line after a lore attempt that shows the current formula and variable values?
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/22/2017 04:49 PM CDT
I'm finding ;lockmaster to be a lot more accurate for my rogues with the new lore forumla but I haven't done a lot of testing since I made the changes.
>> Would it be possible to add a ;lockmasterdebug version allowing us to change around lorebonus variables with a debug line after a lore attempt that shows the current formula and variable values?
I'm not following your ask (but I'll read it more carefully this evening) but the short answer is I'm willing to work with you / add what is needed as long as I understand the ask!
I'm looking to add some additional features / functionality to ;lockmaster this weekend anyway so the timing is good.
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
>> Would it be possible to add a ;lockmasterdebug version allowing us to change around lorebonus variables with a debug line after a lore attempt that shows the current formula and variable values?
I'm not following your ask (but I'll read it more carefully this evening) but the short answer is I'm willing to work with you / add what is needed as long as I understand the ask!
I'm looking to add some additional features / functionality to ;lockmaster this weekend anyway so the timing is good.
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
JGALT22
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/22/2017 07:08 PM CDT
I was half asleep when I wrote that so my apologies for any confusion. I'm now realizing I might be the only one to benefit, here goes anyway:
1. Have ;lockmaster log lore attempts to a file similar to ;loglore for loresinging. I'm envisioning an output like:
Box #, Level, Skill, Dexbonus, MnE spells known, Pick Mod, Lore Active, d100, Lock Size, Result, RT
1, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 60, -450, Opened, 0
2, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 30, -440, Opened, 5
3, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 97, -460, Opened, 0
4, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 0, 53, -385, Opened, 15
5, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 38, -530, Read, 20
5, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 51, -530, Opened, 15
Csv format so it can be transferred to excel for formula checking goodness.
2. Same basic idea except spitting out that info after each lore pick attempt (or every attempt with an additional Lore Active/Inactive field?) something like:
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a poor attempt (d100=30).
You struggle with the coffer. As you do, you get a sense that the coffer has a well-crafted lock (-440 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Lockmaster: Level, 25, Skill, 150, Dexbonus, 29, MnE spells, 4, Pick Mod, 2.5, Lore Active, 1, d100, 30, Lock Size, -440, Result, Opened, RT, 5
Again, no idea if it's possible or worth the effort or if anyone other than me would use it, but I'm putting it out there because it's bugging me not to know the exact formula.
1. Have ;lockmaster log lore attempts to a file similar to ;loglore for loresinging. I'm envisioning an output like:
Box #, Level, Skill, Dexbonus, MnE spells known, Pick Mod, Lore Active, d100, Lock Size, Result, RT
1, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 60, -450, Opened, 0
2, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 30, -440, Opened, 5
3, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 97, -460, Opened, 0
4, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 0, 53, -385, Opened, 15
5, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 38, -530, Read, 20
5, 25, 150, 29, 4, 2.5, 1, 51, -530, Opened, 15
Csv format so it can be transferred to excel for formula checking goodness.
2. Same basic idea except spitting out that info after each lore pick attempt (or every attempt with an additional Lore Active/Inactive field?) something like:
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a poor attempt (d100=30).
You struggle with the coffer. As you do, you get a sense that the coffer has a well-crafted lock (-440 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Lockmaster: Level, 25, Skill, 150, Dexbonus, 29, MnE spells, 4, Pick Mod, 2.5, Lore Active, 1, d100, 30, Lock Size, -440, Result, Opened, RT, 5
Again, no idea if it's possible or worth the effort or if anyone other than me would use it, but I'm putting it out there because it's bugging me not to know the exact formula.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/22/2017 07:52 PM CDT
Okay. I get the concept!
First let me say that I appreciate the discussion and feedback so far. While its an interesting project for me personally anyway it provides an extra bit of motivation to stay focused on this when others express some interest as well.
A few of points:
1) Currently the only scanning that is going on is when you use ;lockmaster load and then it is only looking for your caliper measurement.
2) That said, I can look at utilizing the same concept to scan for each box attempt and then output the basic values as you've so nicely laid out.
3) I've written exactly three scripts in Ruby so far (;sizematters which just displays text on container sizes, ;attendance which is a pretty cool attendance tracker, and now ;lockmaster, my current work in progress. Being already familiar with C++ and Java are a bonus and the items you are requesting are likely 'easy' but as I'll need to figure out how to do them in Ruby / Lich it may take a little bit of time and effort to get there. (All good since the goal is to learn more about Ruby and Lich while writing useful scripts.)
4) Once I'm capturing the correct data on each attempt, I could either do an attempt by attempt output (your option 2) or possibly keep it in memory until you finish your session when you could then request a dump of the data to your screen (a variant on your option 1) and simply copy / paste the resulting output into notepad / excel / whatever. I'll noodle on this a bit while figuring out if / how I can best accomplish this.
5) I think there may be some additional challenges / learning tied to your option 1) so we may stick with your option 2) as a first pass on this!
6) Pickmod - this one may be a bit more challenging to capture. Maybe I can scan for each and every time you grab a pick and capture the lock pick name? Then add the most recently grabbed lock pick description as part of the output log (so you would need to convert to a mod value). May need to apply a similar technique to uniquely identify when you have a new box. Alternatively (this is my lack of lich knowledge showing) it may be easy to reference what is in your right and left hand during each attempt (for some reason I feel like this information can have a delay factor in updating though... not sure!)
7) I have 4 projects laid out to accomplish this weekend (;lockmaster being one of them where I have a few other thing I want to add as well) so you may not see progress on this until a week or so out.
Probably too much detail in my response so I'll stop here. :-)
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
First let me say that I appreciate the discussion and feedback so far. While its an interesting project for me personally anyway it provides an extra bit of motivation to stay focused on this when others express some interest as well.
A few of points:
1) Currently the only scanning that is going on is when you use ;lockmaster load and then it is only looking for your caliper measurement.
2) That said, I can look at utilizing the same concept to scan for each box attempt and then output the basic values as you've so nicely laid out.
3) I've written exactly three scripts in Ruby so far (;sizematters which just displays text on container sizes, ;attendance which is a pretty cool attendance tracker, and now ;lockmaster, my current work in progress. Being already familiar with C++ and Java are a bonus and the items you are requesting are likely 'easy' but as I'll need to figure out how to do them in Ruby / Lich it may take a little bit of time and effort to get there. (All good since the goal is to learn more about Ruby and Lich while writing useful scripts.)
4) Once I'm capturing the correct data on each attempt, I could either do an attempt by attempt output (your option 2) or possibly keep it in memory until you finish your session when you could then request a dump of the data to your screen (a variant on your option 1) and simply copy / paste the resulting output into notepad / excel / whatever. I'll noodle on this a bit while figuring out if / how I can best accomplish this.
5) I think there may be some additional challenges / learning tied to your option 1) so we may stick with your option 2) as a first pass on this!
6) Pickmod - this one may be a bit more challenging to capture. Maybe I can scan for each and every time you grab a pick and capture the lock pick name? Then add the most recently grabbed lock pick description as part of the output log (so you would need to convert to a mod value). May need to apply a similar technique to uniquely identify when you have a new box. Alternatively (this is my lack of lich knowledge showing) it may be easy to reference what is in your right and left hand during each attempt (for some reason I feel like this information can have a delay factor in updating though... not sure!)
7) I have 4 projects laid out to accomplish this weekend (;lockmaster being one of them where I have a few other thing I want to add as well) so you may not see progress on this until a week or so out.
Probably too much detail in my response so I'll stop here. :-)
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
JGALT22
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/22/2017 11:09 PM CDT
C'est fantastique!
Re:6 - You're probably right that pick name is easiest to grab. I use off the shelf picks so it'll be simple to setup a vlookup in excel to get modifiers that way. The same process would work with boxes for me because I don't pick boxes on the ground, only those in my hand.
Just to clarify on the results, it'd need to be something to differentiate the 5 possibilities: fumble, learn little/pick damage, within abilities, read, and opened.
Re:6 - You're probably right that pick name is easiest to grab. I use off the shelf picks so it'll be simple to setup a vlookup in excel to get modifiers that way. The same process would work with boxes for me because I don't pick boxes on the ground, only those in my hand.
Just to clarify on the results, it'd need to be something to differentiate the 5 possibilities: fumble, learn little/pick damage, within abilities, read, and opened.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
09/30/2017 10:16 AM CDT
:lockmaster hasn't been forgotten. I did some work on it last weekend but then switched gears to some other projects and haven't made it back yet! I'll likely pick ;lockmaster development back up in the coming week.
-- Robert
The Power of Bacon:
You accept Kirryk's offer and are now holding a maple and bacon bar.
>
You are now level 24!
-- Robert
The Power of Bacon:
You accept Kirryk's offer and are now holding a maple and bacon bar.
>
You are now level 24!
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Lock picking self lore formula
10/08/2017 09:56 PM CDT
I posted ;lockmaster v1.3 this evening. It has a handy lock rating reference added (something I found I kept wanting to have handy). It doesn't have the debug feature (YET) but I've started looking into it. I think this is going to be easier to add than I thought (the pick and box name are already included in the pick attempt messaging) but also be a bit more time consuming if I want to handle all the variations on the pick messaging (LM PTRICK). Given it is for testing purposes I may just stick with the standard pick attempt messaging for the DEBUG option for starters.
-- Robert
Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"
-- Robert
Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"
