Anyone know the formula for calculating one's theoretical maximum trap and lock, with and without lores?
I've been looking on the web but the stuff I am finding dates back 8 years or so, and also much is obscure, if not contradictory.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
OM1E5GA
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 03:23 PM CDT
From https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Picking_Locks:
((Picking Locks skill + Dexterity bonus) * Pick modifier) + lock difficulty (negative number) + d100 roll
If someone's worked out a formula that's current for spotting/disarming traps or the bonus provided by lores, they haven't put it on the wiki (well, there is one for lores in a saved post, but it's incomplete). If Tsoran's site is still up somewhere it might have the formula's, but I don't have a bookmark on this computer to check.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
((Picking Locks skill + Dexterity bonus) * Pick modifier) + lock difficulty (negative number) + d100 roll
If someone's worked out a formula that's current for spotting/disarming traps or the bonus provided by lores, they haven't put it on the wiki (well, there is one for lores in a saved post, but it's incomplete). If Tsoran's site is still up somewhere it might have the formula's, but I don't have a bookmark on this computer to check.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
THROGG
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 06:10 PM CDT
The link you provided is currently a blank page.
Ugh; and what are the pick modifiers again?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Ugh; and what are the pick modifiers again?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 06:14 PM CDT
OK, forget the pick modifiers, found that one.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 06:29 PM CDT
I can't believe nobody has a decent reference for traps! I have a vague idea what I can get, but no firm upper limit. What, I just keep trying harder traps until one blows up on me?
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
OM1E5GA
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 06:50 PM CDT
<The link you provided is currently a blank page.>
Forgot to put a space before the ":"... here it is again:
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Picking_Locks
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Forgot to put a space before the ":"... here it is again:
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Picking_Locks
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 06:51 PM CDT
>I can't believe nobody has a decent reference for traps! I have a vague idea what I can get, but no firm upper limit. What, I just keep trying harder traps until one blows up on me?
disarm skill + DEX + lore + modifiers = max trap
Lighting is a significant modifier. Nothing else makes much difference in my experience though.
OM1E5GA
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 06:51 PM CDT
<What, I just keep trying harder traps until one blows up on me?>
Pretty much.... if in doubt, kindly step into a room by yourself before attempting though.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Pretty much.... if in doubt, kindly step into a room by yourself before attempting though.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
THROGG
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 09:13 PM CDT
>>disarm skill + DEX + lore + modifiers = max trap<<
Yeah, I've seen something similar to that. But it's not complete. What IS the bonus for self-cast lores? Invoked lores is supposedly half of self-cast, but half of what exactly? Also, by disarm skill I assume you mean ranks, not actual skill value, and the dexterity bonus, not the numerical stat.
As for lighting, I always use the best available. If I can't find a bright spot I use a table, or get a cleric/empath to cast light. That at least I can keep pretty constant.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Yeah, I've seen something similar to that. But it's not complete. What IS the bonus for self-cast lores? Invoked lores is supposedly half of self-cast, but half of what exactly? Also, by disarm skill I assume you mean ranks, not actual skill value, and the dexterity bonus, not the numerical stat.
As for lighting, I always use the best available. If I can't find a bright spot I use a table, or get a cleric/empath to cast light. That at least I can keep pretty constant.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
THROGG
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 09:19 PM CDT
Maybe this will help ...
Disarming Traps....................| 230 130
Picking Locks......................| 232 132
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 103 (36)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Max trap disarmed so far: -345
So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Disarming Traps....................| 230 130
Picking Locks......................| 232 132
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 103 (36)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Max trap disarmed so far: -345
So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
SPYRIDONM1
Re: Formulas?
03/10/2015 11:26 PM CDT
>Yeah, I've seen something similar to that. But it's not complete. What IS the bonus for self-cast lores? Invoked lores is supposedly half of self-cast, but half of what exactly? Also, by disarm skill I assume you mean ranks, not actual skill value, and the dexterity bonus, not the numerical stat. -- Throgg
For self-cast lores we don't have a known formula for either picking or disarming. Lores use skill (not ranks) according to the official spell descriptions for 403 and 404.
Your max lock with vaalin (2.5 modifier) without lore or modding down.
(232 + 36) * 2.5 = 670
With lore it will be approximately:
(232 + 36) * 2.5 * 1.3 = 870
The 1.3 lore modifier is an educated guess and will apply to any picking attempt.
Example: max lock with copper (1.00 mod)
(232 + 36) * 1 = 268 (round down to 265)
Max lock with copper + lore (1.3 mod)
(232 + 36) * 1 * 1.3 = 348 (round down to 345)
These are the descriptors with corresponding endroll ranges for locks. Traps use the same set of descriptors and likely the same ER ranges but this can't be verified easily.
1. You make a fumbling attempt (d100= 1)
2. You make a pathetic attempt(d100= 2 to 9)
3. You make a miserable attempt (d100= 10 to 19)
4. You make a lame attempt (d100= 20 to 29)
5. You make a poor attempt (d100= 30 to 39)
6. You make a passable attempt (d100= 40 to 49)
7. You make an adequete attempt. (d100= 50 to 59)
8. You make a competent attempt (d100= 60 to 69)
9. You make a good attempt (d100= 70 to 79)
10. You make a talented attempt(d100= 80 to 89
11. You make an excellent attempt!(d100= 90 to 100)
Mark
For self-cast lores we don't have a known formula for either picking or disarming. Lores use skill (not ranks) according to the official spell descriptions for 403 and 404.
| Maybe this will help ... |
| Disarming Traps.. 230 130 |
| Picking Locks.. 232 132 |
| Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 103 (36) |
| Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30) |
| Max trap disarmed so far: -345 |
Your max lock with vaalin (2.5 modifier) without lore or modding down.
(232 + 36) * 2.5 = 670
With lore it will be approximately:
(232 + 36) * 2.5 * 1.3 = 870
The 1.3 lore modifier is an educated guess and will apply to any picking attempt.
Example: max lock with copper (1.00 mod)
(232 + 36) * 1 = 268 (round down to 265)
Max lock with copper + lore (1.3 mod)
(232 + 36) * 1 * 1.3 = 348 (round down to 345)
These are the descriptors with corresponding endroll ranges for locks. Traps use the same set of descriptors and likely the same ER ranges but this can't be verified easily.
1. You make a fumbling attempt (d100= 1)
2. You make a pathetic attempt(d100= 2 to 9)
3. You make a miserable attempt (d100= 10 to 19)
4. You make a lame attempt (d100= 20 to 29)
5. You make a poor attempt (d100= 30 to 39)
6. You make a passable attempt (d100= 40 to 49)
7. You make an adequete attempt. (d100= 50 to 59)
8. You make a competent attempt (d100= 60 to 69)
9. You make a good attempt (d100= 70 to 79)
10. You make a talented attempt(d100= 80 to 89
11. You make an excellent attempt!(d100= 90 to 100)
Mark
SPYRIDONM1
Re: Formulas?
03/11/2015 04:20 AM CDT
If you are training in lock mastery there is a way you can verify your max lock with lore. You'll need to have 403 active during the picking contest.
Here's an example of how to do this. Make sure 403 is active when picking the lock.
You remove a vaalin lockpick from on a small wooden table.
You struggle with the box. As you do, you get a sense that the box has a well-crafted lock (-440 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
[You have scored 536 points!]
1. Multiply the lock size by 1000: (-440 * 1000) = -440,000
2. Divide this total by your score: (-440,000/536) = -820 max lock with lore
3. Next divide 820 by your max lock without lore (in this example max lock w/o lore is 625): 820/625 = 1.31 this is the lore modifier.
You'll need to replace 625 in the above example with 670 since this is your max lock without lore using vaalin. And replace the lock difficulty and points with the actual values. Your result should be approximately 1.3, perhaps a bit higher.
Mark
Here's an example of how to do this. Make sure 403 is active when picking the lock.
You remove a vaalin lockpick from on a small wooden table.
You struggle with the box. As you do, you get a sense that the box has a well-crafted lock (-440 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
[You have scored 536 points!]
1. Multiply the lock size by 1000: (-440 * 1000) = -440,000
2. Divide this total by your score: (-440,000/536) = -820 max lock with lore
3. Next divide 820 by your max lock without lore (in this example max lock w/o lore is 625): 820/625 = 1.31 this is the lore modifier.
You'll need to replace 625 in the above example with 670 since this is your max lock without lore using vaalin. And replace the lock difficulty and points with the actual values. Your result should be approximately 1.3, perhaps a bit higher.
Mark
RATHBONER
Re: Formulas?
03/11/2015 12:44 PM CDT
What makes you think its a multiplier rather than an addition?
Level/2 + Skill Bonus/10 + Dex Bonus/2 + (something)
this fits me as well as Porcell although my (something) is a whole lot bigger that his was. The divisors ought to be a whole lot closer than 10 and 2 if it was actually a multiplier.
Level/2 + Skill Bonus/10 + Dex Bonus/2 + (something)
this fits me as well as Porcell although my (something) is a whole lot bigger that his was. The divisors ought to be a whole lot closer than 10 and 2 if it was actually a multiplier.
DOUG
Re: Formulas?
03/11/2015 03:08 PM CDT
>>this fits me as well as Porcell although my (something) is a whole lot bigger that his was.
Oooo, I can't wait for Robert to get ahold of this one! I'm sure there's going to be some quotable quotes tripping across any second, now. . .
Doug
Oooo, I can't wait for Robert to get ahold of this one! I'm sure there's going to be some quotable quotes tripping across any second, now. . .
Doug
SPYRIDONM1
Re: Formulas?
03/11/2015 08:33 PM CDT
>What makes you think its a multiplier rather than an addition?
>Level/2 + Skill Bonus/10 + Dex Bonus/2 + (something)
>this fits me as well as Porcell although my (something) is a whole lot bigger that his was. The divisors ought to be a whole lot closer than 10 and 2 if it was actually a multiplier. -- Rathboner
I don't disagree that the lore formula probably uses the sum of the bonuses. I was using a multiplier as a simplified alternate way to show the effect of the lore bonus.
Skill: 215
DEX bonus: 35
Max lock w/vaalin: 625
Max lock w/vaalin + lore: 820
(820 - 625)/2.5 = 78 bonus
(215 + 35 + 78) * 2.5 = 820
or
820/625 = 1.312 multiplier
My 'something' for this character is also significantly larger than Porcell's, even when adding lore ranks known.
Level: 43
Skill: 215
DEX bonus: 35
MnE ranks: 4
(43/2) + (215/10) + (35/2) + 4 = 63 calculated (actual 78)
Mark
>Level/2 + Skill Bonus/10 + Dex Bonus/2 + (something)
>this fits me as well as Porcell although my (something) is a whole lot bigger that his was. The divisors ought to be a whole lot closer than 10 and 2 if it was actually a multiplier. -- Rathboner
I don't disagree that the lore formula probably uses the sum of the bonuses. I was using a multiplier as a simplified alternate way to show the effect of the lore bonus.
Skill: 215
DEX bonus: 35
Max lock w/vaalin: 625
Max lock w/vaalin + lore: 820
(820 - 625)/2.5 = 78 bonus
(215 + 35 + 78) * 2.5 = 820
or
820/625 = 1.312 multiplier
My 'something' for this character is also significantly larger than Porcell's, even when adding lore ranks known.
Level: 43
Skill: 215
DEX bonus: 35
MnE ranks: 4
(43/2) + (215/10) + (35/2) + 4 = 63 calculated (actual 78)
Mark
RATHBONER
Re: Formulas?
03/11/2015 09:01 PM CDT
I thought it was MnE/10 in the lore bonus according to Tsoran who is the only person I ever remember coming up with a figure for it but that thread has long ago rolled off the forums and I don't know that it was preserved anywhere for reference.
THROGG
Re: Formulas?
03/12/2015 04:09 AM CDT
>> my (something) is a whole lot bigger that his was.<<
A clear case of "something envy"!
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
A clear case of "something envy"!
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
SPYRIDONM1
Re: Formulas?
03/12/2015 11:44 AM CDT
>I thought it was MnE/10 in the lore bonus according to Tsoran who is the only person I ever remember coming up with a figure for it but that thread has long ago rolled off the forums and I don't know that it was preserved anywhere for reference. -- Rathboner
AFAIK his lore research posts were never archived.
Level: 14
Skill: 50
DEX bonus: 17
MnE: 3
Pick mod: 1.00 (copper)
Lock difficulty: -60
With lore -
Feeling: d100=20
Sense: d100=41
Sense: d100=57
Click: d100=60
I'll need more attempts to narrow the ranges a bit more but what this suggests to me is that there is a base bonus of perhaps 15 if the divisors for level, skill and dex are accurate.
50 skill + 17 dex - 60 lock diff + 60 d100 + X lore bonus = 101
X = Min 34, Max 36 from click (d100=60) and sense (d100=57) results
Speculative lore bonus formula: 15 + (trunc)Lev/2 + (trunc)Skill/10 + (trunc)Dex/2 + (trunc)MnE/10?
15 + 14/2 + 50/10 + 17/2 + 3/10 = 35
If this is accurate I should be able to open the box with a min d100=59 and sense with a max d100=58.
Mark
AFAIK his lore research posts were never archived.
Level: 14
Skill: 50
DEX bonus: 17
MnE: 3
Pick mod: 1.00 (copper)
Lock difficulty: -60
With lore -
Feeling: d100=20
Sense: d100=41
Sense: d100=57
Click: d100=60
I'll need more attempts to narrow the ranges a bit more but what this suggests to me is that there is a base bonus of perhaps 15 if the divisors for level, skill and dex are accurate.
50 skill + 17 dex - 60 lock diff + 60 d100 + X lore bonus = 101
X = Min 34, Max 36 from click (d100=60) and sense (d100=57) results
Speculative lore bonus formula: 15 + (trunc)Lev/2 + (trunc)Skill/10 + (trunc)Dex/2 + (trunc)MnE/10?
15 + 14/2 + 50/10 + 17/2 + 3/10 = 35
If this is accurate I should be able to open the box with a min d100=59 and sense with a max d100=58.
Mark
RATHBONER
Re: Formulas?
03/12/2015 12:15 PM CDT
The best way to check is with enhancives rather than across different characters. That baseline 15 isn't the same on all characters (its 20 or 21 for me). Across different characters ought to help sort out what factor(s) are in there.
