Hello!
I'm working on an empath training plan in the GS4trainer spreadsheet, and I've got a general empathic question!
I'm at about level 70 in the trainer now, and I'm trying to decide if I'd be better off starting to pick up CM's (for disarm protection) or grab more lores and push CM's until later levels/post cap.
at level 65 in the trainer, my empath has the following skills (in ranks) :
Armor Use : 35
Physical Fitness : 132
Climb : 24
Swim : 24
Perception : 66
First Aid : 132
Survival : 66
Arcane Symbols : 50
Magic Item Use : 50
Harness Power : 132
Spell Aiming : 132
Elmental Mana Control : 13
Spirit Mana Control : 66
Mental Mana Control : 24
Spiritual Lore Blessings : 65 (stopping at 65 ranks)
Mental Lore Telepathy : 5 (extra warding cycle on 1110)
Spells :
Empath : 65
Major Spirit : 40
Minor Spirit : 27
Starting at 66, I can get CM ranks sporadically (about 2 ranks every 3 levels), but I can't decide if I should do that, or push more Telepathy ranks for more warding cycles. I'm not really sure what level the CM protections from Cunning Defense / Disarm will become important.
Thanks!
TRINITIS2
TROUBLE13
Re: Empath training question.
05/06/2014 01:14 PM CDT
You seem to be focused on bolting rather then CS, so it seems to me like adding more CS cycles isn't going to be a huge help.
>Mental Lore, Transformation increases the bolt Damage Factor (DF) of the spell.
>Mental Mana Control modifies the warding margin on successful wardings.
>Mental Lore, Manipulation decreases the foe's Target Defense (TD) by a maximum of 13.
Out of those three, I'd suggest you shoot for 57 ranks of transformation lore. The first 50 ranks of it will increase the DF the most as well as give you a second regeneration per day. Those extra 7 ranks mean that at cap you'd have 0 round time when healing.
With a spirit servant getting disarmed usually isn't that bad but if you find it annoying enough I see no reason not to train in it. I knew an empath who after a few disarms on a hunt would just stow their runestaff and walk around empty handed blasting things. Others have gone shield/brawl to avoid being disarmed.
>Mental Lore, Transformation increases the bolt Damage Factor (DF) of the spell.
>Mental Mana Control modifies the warding margin on successful wardings.
>Mental Lore, Manipulation decreases the foe's Target Defense (TD) by a maximum of 13.
Out of those three, I'd suggest you shoot for 57 ranks of transformation lore. The first 50 ranks of it will increase the DF the most as well as give you a second regeneration per day. Those extra 7 ranks mean that at cap you'd have 0 round time when healing.
With a spirit servant getting disarmed usually isn't that bad but if you find it annoying enough I see no reason not to train in it. I knew an empath who after a few disarms on a hunt would just stow their runestaff and walk around empty handed blasting things. Others have gone shield/brawl to avoid being disarmed.
TRINITIS2
Re: Empath training question.
05/07/2014 12:03 AM CDT
I'm not sure how I put off the vibe that I'm focusing on bolting. I want bolting to remain an option, more so at low levels (bolting undead for the first 20-30 levels is extremely easy hunting), but I plan to use which ever is easier for the area I happen to be hunting, bolt or bone shatter.
ZHOUY1
Re: Empath training question.
05/07/2014 01:42 PM CDT
That planned build comes across as a character who's minimally competent at each hunting method. They'll be able to land Bone Shatter some of the time, but with only 2x spell ranks, no Empath Circle overtraining, and (to a lesser extent) no ML:Manipulation, the spell isn't as effective as it could be. They'll be able to throw Fire Spirit and Empathic Assault bolts, but neither is supported by the respective DF-increasing lores. Web Bolt and Wither aren't viable options without SL:Summoning (and in Wither's case, substantial warding margins).
I'd recommend picking one of the two methods and train to make it a genuinely lethal option.
As far as CM and Disarm, it's another case where if you only dabble in it you're still going to get disarmed regularly by whichever enemies know the maneuver. Which is not very many, really, and you won't lose your stuff if you have a spirit servant in the room, so no need to worry too much about it.
I'd recommend picking one of the two methods and train to make it a genuinely lethal option.
As far as CM and Disarm, it's another case where if you only dabble in it you're still going to get disarmed regularly by whichever enemies know the maneuver. Which is not very many, really, and you won't lose your stuff if you have a spirit servant in the room, so no need to worry too much about it.
ETANNIDOMHNAILL
Re: Empath training question.
05/08/2014 01:28 PM CDT
All of my training advice, including the whys and wherefores, are encapsulated in this post I made a couple years back. http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Empath_training_suggestions_(saved_post)
I will agree on the previous poster that it seems like you're trying to do a little of everything, which will hurt you in the long run. As a capped caster empath, I have 0 ranks in CM and no plans to start. CM is extremely expensive to train in, and disarm requires a large number of ranks just to become competent in. I'd just rather summon my spirit servant and be done with it. Most times whatever I'm hunting can't hit me even when I'm disarmed anyway. The vast majority of times I've died has been to maneuvers, and training in physical fitness greatly helps that.
Gretchen
Visit the GSGuide wiki, now home to merchant shop inventory lists! http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/GSGuide_Wiki
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
AIM: Lady Nilandia
I will agree on the previous poster that it seems like you're trying to do a little of everything, which will hurt you in the long run. As a capped caster empath, I have 0 ranks in CM and no plans to start. CM is extremely expensive to train in, and disarm requires a large number of ranks just to become competent in. I'd just rather summon my spirit servant and be done with it. Most times whatever I'm hunting can't hit me even when I'm disarmed anyway. The vast majority of times I've died has been to maneuvers, and training in physical fitness greatly helps that.
Gretchen
Visit the GSGuide wiki, now home to merchant shop inventory lists! http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/GSGuide_Wiki
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
AIM: Lady Nilandia
JAKKAL
Re: Empath training question.
05/08/2014 04:51 PM CDT
I use a bow and I never felt the need to pick up disarm as I was leveling. If you watch your encumbrance and keep up the 2x Physical Fitness you should be fine. I did grab a few ranks of CM for Cunning Defense and Disarm post cap though.
You're setup to be a bolter. The blessing lore will add 6 AS and I'm guessing you have that for Sunfist. Major Bane will make your bolts hit harder as well. If you want to double down on being a bolter, get summoning lore. Web bolt is pretty amazing. Transformation lores are fairly good too since they buff 1110 damage. I highly recommend at least 50 ranks for everyone to get the second use of Regen and reducing heal times to 3 seconds (You're stuck in that much cast time anyway).
If you want to round yourself out then you should start tripling spells to get empath at +21 over level. That's the only way you'll buff up bone shatter and wither.
Also, brigandine is an odd choice for a pure caster. Unless you have an amazing suit of brig you're planning to wear, you may want to drop Armor Use down to double leather. That said, I suffer through the 7% hinderance and do alright.
---Mirrami
You're setup to be a bolter. The blessing lore will add 6 AS and I'm guessing you have that for Sunfist. Major Bane will make your bolts hit harder as well. If you want to double down on being a bolter, get summoning lore. Web bolt is pretty amazing. Transformation lores are fairly good too since they buff 1110 damage. I highly recommend at least 50 ranks for everyone to get the second use of Regen and reducing heal times to 3 seconds (You're stuck in that much cast time anyway).
If you want to round yourself out then you should start tripling spells to get empath at +21 over level. That's the only way you'll buff up bone shatter and wither.
Also, brigandine is an odd choice for a pure caster. Unless you have an amazing suit of brig you're planning to wear, you may want to drop Armor Use down to double leather. That said, I suffer through the 7% hinderance and do alright.
---Mirrami
TRINITIS2
Re: Empath training question.
05/09/2014 12:00 AM CDT
>You're setup to be a bolter. The blessing lore will add 6 AS and I'm guessing you have that for Sunfist. Major Bane will make your bolts hit harder as well. If you want to double down on being a bolter, get summoning lore. Web bolt is pretty amazing. Transformation lores are fairly good too since they buff 1110 damage. I highly recommend at least 50 ranks for everyone to get the second use of Regen and reducing heal times to 3 seconds (You're stuck in that much cast time anyway).
>If you want to round yourself out then you should start tripling spells to get empath at +21 over level. That's the only way you'll buff up bone shatter and wither.
Ok, see with this post I now understand the misunderstanding.
I could not figure out why everyone was assuming I was only bolting. I do push to 21 ranks over level in empath, just a bit later. I've been playing with the spreadsheet for about a month now, and I have a few different builds, but the current one has me at 20 over my level in empath ranks at level 73. I'm still only 2x'd in spells, but that's because I was under the impression most empaths picked up CM's for the disarm protection. Now that I know that is not the case, I'm going to play with the spreadsheet more and drop the 48 ranks of CM's and probably dump them into spells.
>If you want to round yourself out then you should start tripling spells to get empath at +21 over level. That's the only way you'll buff up bone shatter and wither.
Ok, see with this post I now understand the misunderstanding.
I could not figure out why everyone was assuming I was only bolting. I do push to 21 ranks over level in empath, just a bit later. I've been playing with the spreadsheet for about a month now, and I have a few different builds, but the current one has me at 20 over my level in empath ranks at level 73. I'm still only 2x'd in spells, but that's because I was under the impression most empaths picked up CM's for the disarm protection. Now that I know that is not the case, I'm going to play with the spreadsheet more and drop the 48 ranks of CM's and probably dump them into spells.
STAFFENDN
More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/18/2014 05:27 AM CDT
Hello everyone! I have a few question. Some specific and some general. First off the basic plan:
1x in the following:
PF, HP, AS, MIU, MMC, SMC, SL:summoning, ML:manipulation
2x First Aid, Spell Aim
2x+ what I can in spells. At level 15 I have 4 ranks in MjS (to be helpful, people ask for 204 often enough), 11 ranks in MnS, 19 ranks in Emp.
When I can in the following:
Armor up to 8, Cli/Swim as needed to live in RR through my 30s, perception as I can.
I want to make it a point never to swing a weapon. I started with 1101 from level 1. So please don't tell me to swing a weapon through my first 30 days. I have 11 days left and I'm satisfied with my progress. In the first 30 I look slightly different. I have 24 empath ranks and I'm doubled in HP to help with mana and regen at the young age. But part of me wants to toy with the idea of just going for a pure CS based casting empath. Thoughts?
So here's my questions:
0) Any glaring issues?
1) How long can a strictly bone shatter/sympathy empath be viable as Sunfister? (this is for planning purposes. If I can last until 30 or 40, then I'll probably just stay that way and fixskill when its fixskill season)
2) When will mana stop being an issue for bolting?
3) How many folks really recommend singling in HP? It seems like that would lead to mana troubles when trying to be a pure in the early levels.
4) Lores: I need help here please. Can anyone point me to the benefit summation table for manipulation lore and bone shatter? I can't seem to find it, or what seed it is, or anything.
Thank you all in advance.
Staff-wielder
Player of many.
1x in the following:
PF, HP, AS, MIU, MMC, SMC, SL:summoning, ML:manipulation
2x First Aid, Spell Aim
2x+ what I can in spells. At level 15 I have 4 ranks in MjS (to be helpful, people ask for 204 often enough), 11 ranks in MnS, 19 ranks in Emp.
When I can in the following:
Armor up to 8, Cli/Swim as needed to live in RR through my 30s, perception as I can.
I want to make it a point never to swing a weapon. I started with 1101 from level 1. So please don't tell me to swing a weapon through my first 30 days. I have 11 days left and I'm satisfied with my progress. In the first 30 I look slightly different. I have 24 empath ranks and I'm doubled in HP to help with mana and regen at the young age. But part of me wants to toy with the idea of just going for a pure CS based casting empath. Thoughts?
So here's my questions:
0) Any glaring issues?
1) How long can a strictly bone shatter/sympathy empath be viable as Sunfister? (this is for planning purposes. If I can last until 30 or 40, then I'll probably just stay that way and fixskill when its fixskill season)
2) When will mana stop being an issue for bolting?
3) How many folks really recommend singling in HP? It seems like that would lead to mana troubles when trying to be a pure in the early levels.
4) Lores: I need help here please. Can anyone point me to the benefit summation table for manipulation lore and bone shatter? I can't seem to find it, or what seed it is, or anything.
Thank you all in advance.
Staff-wielder
Player of many.
TRINITIS2
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/18/2014 06:59 AM CDT
It's my understanding that ML:manipulation is not worth the TP's for bone shatter. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I remember reading that the bonus for training a full 1x in manipulation was less then 10% chance to insta kill.
JGALT22
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/18/2014 06:31 PM CDT
1x PF as an empath in Sunfist stands out for three reasons:
1. PF is dirt cheap for an empath
2. PF is the primary defense against creature maneuvers
3. PF gives you stamina which you need for your sigils
My empath is CS based, but isn't much further along than yours. The biggest loss from getting rid of spell aim will be a drop in versatility. With spell aim: Has bones? Shatter them. No bones? Bolt them. No mana? Grab a wizard wand. Without spell aim: Has bones? Shatter them. No bones? ....find something with bones. On the other hand, spell aim is tp-intensive when you don't have much mana and wands are expensive, heavy, and a pain to keep a good supply going.
The bottom line for me? You can't screw up an empath. They're great for hunting, healing, and making friends. What's not to like?
1. PF is dirt cheap for an empath
2. PF is the primary defense against creature maneuvers
3. PF gives you stamina which you need for your sigils
My empath is CS based, but isn't much further along than yours. The biggest loss from getting rid of spell aim will be a drop in versatility. With spell aim: Has bones? Shatter them. No bones? Bolt them. No mana? Grab a wizard wand. Without spell aim: Has bones? Shatter them. No bones? ....find something with bones. On the other hand, spell aim is tp-intensive when you don't have much mana and wands are expensive, heavy, and a pain to keep a good supply going.
The bottom line for me? You can't screw up an empath. They're great for hunting, healing, and making friends. What's not to like?
THROGG
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/19/2014 12:10 AM CDT
>>It's my understanding that ML:manipulation is not worth the TP's for bone shatter. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I remember reading that the bonus for training a full 1x in manipulation was less then 10% chance to insta kill.<<
Aye; I once had 70 ranks of manipulation lore, but when I read that, I dropped this gradually back to 40, then fixskilled to 0. Can't say that I notice much difference.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than he male".
Aye; I once had 70 ranks of manipulation lore, but when I read that, I dropped this gradually back to 40, then fixskilled to 0. Can't say that I notice much difference.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than he male".
THROGG
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/19/2014 12:28 AM CDT
>> How many folks really recommend singling in HP?<<
What turns most folks off about going 2x in HP is the seemingly miniscule return (1 more total mana per rank) for the doubled TP cost. I personally 2x any pure caster I train in Harness, because it adds up. At level 100, that's 100 extra mana. Yum.
>>please don't tell me to swing a weapon through my first 30 days.<<
Another valid point; why stop at 30 days? I recommend using weapons until level 101, and then switch to pure caster.
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
What turns most folks off about going 2x in HP is the seemingly miniscule return (1 more total mana per rank) for the doubled TP cost. I personally 2x any pure caster I train in Harness, because it adds up. At level 100, that's 100 extra mana. Yum.
>>please don't tell me to swing a weapon through my first 30 days.<<
Another valid point; why stop at 30 days? I recommend using weapons until level 101, and then switch to pure caster.
The Bells of Hell
go ding-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
STAFFENDN
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/19/2014 06:01 PM CDT
Nope, Not swinging a weapon. Now or ever with this one.
Bump up PF, got it.
And I really like the field mana regen of 2x hp. 2 pulses and I'm back out there if I didn't fry the first time. I may keep this.
One more question: I was having a conversation with someone the other day, they said the only lore that really matters pre-cap is blessings. Otherwise the return on TPs just isn't that great until after cap anyway. Thoughts?
Bump up PF, got it.
And I really like the field mana regen of 2x hp. 2 pulses and I'm back out there if I didn't fry the first time. I may keep this.
One more question: I was having a conversation with someone the other day, they said the only lore that really matters pre-cap is blessings. Otherwise the return on TPs just isn't that great until after cap anyway. Thoughts?
RORN
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/19/2014 07:01 PM CDT
<One more question: I was having a conversation with someone the other day, they said the only lore that really matters pre-cap <is blessings. Otherwise the return on TPs just isn't that great until after cap anyway. Thoughts?
My character is currently level 70 and went full Pure back around the mid 50's.
I was training Blessings after going full Pure and gave it up fairly quickly. There's just not much combat benefit to it. It does give you an AS point every 10 ranks once you have Heroism and will make your Untrammel spell a duration spell instead of a one shot spell, but other than that it really doesn't prove useful.
I shifted the training points to Summoning which really helps more in my opinion. Web cast at a target is a very handy spell to have and Summoning makes it stronger. Being able to bind a target with webbing so it can't beat on you can be a life saver with some monsters.
Telepathy Lore will strengthen your Empathy spell, can make Sympathy useful vs undead, and give you more damage cycles from Empathic Assault.
I put points into 52 ranks of Transformation to reduce the RT for wound healing spells to less than the three second spell RT, take seventeen seconds off the scar healing RT, get a second use of 1150 Regeneration each day, and add another eight points of blood to the six blood points the 1125 Troll's Blood spell restores to you when it cycles. My characters main focus is healing, in town and out hunting with a group. The Transformation Lore benefits work well for him.
Read up on Krakiipedia about the spells and the Lores and what benefits they have and how they affect each other.
Keep in mind that your best CS will be with your Empath spells and this will be more and more true as your level rises. Each group of spells gives you one CS per spell rank in that group plus 1/3 CS per spell in the other two spell groups up to 2/3 your level in each of the other groups. I was told to train Empath spell ranks to character level plus 21 for CS purposes.
Tanivar Somakre
"Healing, you want it, you shall have it."
My character is currently level 70 and went full Pure back around the mid 50's.
I was training Blessings after going full Pure and gave it up fairly quickly. There's just not much combat benefit to it. It does give you an AS point every 10 ranks once you have Heroism and will make your Untrammel spell a duration spell instead of a one shot spell, but other than that it really doesn't prove useful.
I shifted the training points to Summoning which really helps more in my opinion. Web cast at a target is a very handy spell to have and Summoning makes it stronger. Being able to bind a target with webbing so it can't beat on you can be a life saver with some monsters.
Telepathy Lore will strengthen your Empathy spell, can make Sympathy useful vs undead, and give you more damage cycles from Empathic Assault.
I put points into 52 ranks of Transformation to reduce the RT for wound healing spells to less than the three second spell RT, take seventeen seconds off the scar healing RT, get a second use of 1150 Regeneration each day, and add another eight points of blood to the six blood points the 1125 Troll's Blood spell restores to you when it cycles. My characters main focus is healing, in town and out hunting with a group. The Transformation Lore benefits work well for him.
Read up on Krakiipedia about the spells and the Lores and what benefits they have and how they affect each other.
Keep in mind that your best CS will be with your Empath spells and this will be more and more true as your level rises. Each group of spells gives you one CS per spell rank in that group plus 1/3 CS per spell in the other two spell groups up to 2/3 your level in each of the other groups. I was told to train Empath spell ranks to character level plus 21 for CS purposes.
Tanivar Somakre
"Healing, you want it, you shall have it."
ETANNIDOMHNAILL
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/19/2014 08:13 PM CDT
<<One more question: I was having a conversation with someone the other day, they said the only lore that really matters pre-cap is blessings. Otherwise the return on TPs just isn't that great until after cap anyway. Thoughts?>>
I completely agree with all of the points raised by Tanivar. Whoever said that blessings is the only lore worth training is discounting many substantial benefits gained from other lores. I trained in summoning, telepathy and transformation, and I've loved every bit of it.
Gretchen
Visit the GSGuide wiki, now home to merchant shop inventory lists! http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/GSGuide_Wiki
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
AIM: Lady Nilandia
I completely agree with all of the points raised by Tanivar. Whoever said that blessings is the only lore worth training is discounting many substantial benefits gained from other lores. I trained in summoning, telepathy and transformation, and I've loved every bit of it.
Gretchen
Visit the GSGuide wiki, now home to merchant shop inventory lists! http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/GSGuide_Wiki
Meeting Nilandia: http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/Nilandia
AIM: Lady Nilandia
TROUBLE13
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/20/2014 02:27 AM CDT
I always recommend 2x PF as the minimum for an empath with the cheap cost for it, it is only 6 ptps per level. If I did sunfist I'd be 3x in it some time before cap but my empath is in CoL. Being in GoS I don't see why you wouldn't get the 65 blessing ranks to refill your stamina but I likely wouldn't train much more then 1x in it to reach that goal either, probably aim for the break points and go just a bit beyond 1x to reach them slightly sooner.
I went with CS on my main empath because I don't like wands and it takes a long while before you have the mana to effectively bolt with. I also rolled him up because I wanted to boneshatter things, I've got a wizard I can and do bolt with.
As far as HP goes, I always suggest to double up until you reach 100 ranks, front loading your mana for when you need it the most. By the time you get up there you don't need to have huge amounts of mana unless your training is that spread out and your CS is horrible.
I'll never quite understand why people would want to make hunting harder on themselves then it has to be but everyone has different ideas of fun. I've known people to place stats horribly on purpose to make things more difficult and other people to make it more difficult by the way they train. And while I can understand everyone has their idea of fun it does seem silly when they try to push the way they train off on other people. I know I push my views a little bit but that is likely more as a counter to the opposing view which tends to be pushed more in public. Before you cap and even for a while after you aren't going to be able to train everything so you have to figure out what will make you happy until then and train it, you are always going to have short falls somewhere. A friend of mine with an empath wanted to do everything, CS, spell aim, weapons, lores, and it took them around 30mil experience to get what they wanted and I am pretty sure there were still some things left combat wise that they could train in.
The best thing you can do for your character is to find out which things you'll enjoy being able to do more in the short term, work on those and then branch out as your experience pool allows. If you've created the character recently you already have a fixskills and don't have to wait until next May. But I suggest you ask, watch other people, and experience things for yourself if you can to learn about your own preferences before making any choices.
I went with CS on my main empath because I don't like wands and it takes a long while before you have the mana to effectively bolt with. I also rolled him up because I wanted to boneshatter things, I've got a wizard I can and do bolt with.
As far as HP goes, I always suggest to double up until you reach 100 ranks, front loading your mana for when you need it the most. By the time you get up there you don't need to have huge amounts of mana unless your training is that spread out and your CS is horrible.
I'll never quite understand why people would want to make hunting harder on themselves then it has to be but everyone has different ideas of fun. I've known people to place stats horribly on purpose to make things more difficult and other people to make it more difficult by the way they train. And while I can understand everyone has their idea of fun it does seem silly when they try to push the way they train off on other people. I know I push my views a little bit but that is likely more as a counter to the opposing view which tends to be pushed more in public. Before you cap and even for a while after you aren't going to be able to train everything so you have to figure out what will make you happy until then and train it, you are always going to have short falls somewhere. A friend of mine with an empath wanted to do everything, CS, spell aim, weapons, lores, and it took them around 30mil experience to get what they wanted and I am pretty sure there were still some things left combat wise that they could train in.
The best thing you can do for your character is to find out which things you'll enjoy being able to do more in the short term, work on those and then branch out as your experience pool allows. If you've created the character recently you already have a fixskills and don't have to wait until next May. But I suggest you ask, watch other people, and experience things for yourself if you can to learn about your own preferences before making any choices.
STAFFENDN
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/20/2014 12:46 PM CDT
Ok, so here's were I am:
(at level 16), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 128 34
Arcane Symbols.....................| 78 17
Magic Item Use.....................| 78 17
Spell Aiming.......................| 128 34
Harness Power......................| 117 29
Mental Mana Control................| 78 17
Spirit Mana Control................| 78 17
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 78 17
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 78 17
Perception.........................| 50 10
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 20 4
First Aid..........................| 132 36
Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 4
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7
Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 23
So really. How long will it be before I can bolt on my own mana for a whole hunt? I'm also about to have a baby. In other words, I'm not likely to get passed 30 or 35 before next years fixskills. Will that change any recommendations?
-Transformation lore: I like the transformation lore because I just enjoy sitting in TSC helping people out. This won't be 1x forever. When should I stop?
-Summoning lore: Am I really going to be web bolting things any time soon? I can't imagine the mana on a disabling spell much before 40s or 50s.
-Empath circle: Too much over training for this level? Should I be focusing on getting my AS boosters instead?
-HP will be approaching 2x until 100 ranks. I liked the suggestion to just get to 100 ranks. But I'm hurting for points a bit right now recovering from the armor training and trying to work in the other basic skills. So I'll just be making sure I have my bases covered and throwing the extra in here.
-MIU and AS: How much of this do I really need? Want to use wands and read stuff. Should I just single forever?
Remember: This character is for fun. I probably won't actually take it passed 50, because I just don't have time and I have a ranger as my main that I really enjoy. And he's no where near cap.
Any glaring faults in this plan as it is? It takes me about 3 hunts to get from clear to fried with no wands, and if I do that in TSC, there's a good chance that I'll be able heal someone to accelerate that process.
One last thing:
THANK YOU ALL! The empath community has been one of the best for asking for advice so far. Gretchen, your guide on krakii has been an invaluable reference.
Cheers,
Nick
(at level 16), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 128 34
Arcane Symbols.....................| 78 17
Magic Item Use.....................| 78 17
Spell Aiming.......................| 128 34
Harness Power......................| 117 29
Mental Mana Control................| 78 17
Spirit Mana Control................| 78 17
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 78 17
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 78 17
Perception.........................| 50 10
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 20 4
First Aid..........................| 132 36
Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 4
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7
Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 23
So really. How long will it be before I can bolt on my own mana for a whole hunt? I'm also about to have a baby. In other words, I'm not likely to get passed 30 or 35 before next years fixskills. Will that change any recommendations?
-Transformation lore: I like the transformation lore because I just enjoy sitting in TSC helping people out. This won't be 1x forever. When should I stop?
-Summoning lore: Am I really going to be web bolting things any time soon? I can't imagine the mana on a disabling spell much before 40s or 50s.
-Empath circle: Too much over training for this level? Should I be focusing on getting my AS boosters instead?
-HP will be approaching 2x until 100 ranks. I liked the suggestion to just get to 100 ranks. But I'm hurting for points a bit right now recovering from the armor training and trying to work in the other basic skills. So I'll just be making sure I have my bases covered and throwing the extra in here.
-MIU and AS: How much of this do I really need? Want to use wands and read stuff. Should I just single forever?
Remember: This character is for fun. I probably won't actually take it passed 50, because I just don't have time and I have a ranger as my main that I really enjoy. And he's no where near cap.
Any glaring faults in this plan as it is? It takes me about 3 hunts to get from clear to fried with no wands, and if I do that in TSC, there's a good chance that I'll be able heal someone to accelerate that process.
One last thing:
THANK YOU ALL! The empath community has been one of the best for asking for advice so far. Gretchen, your guide on krakii has been an invaluable reference.
Cheers,
Nick
THROGG
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/20/2014 02:35 PM CDT
You are a bit topheavy in empath spells. Yes, the recommendation for optimum CS casting is level +20, but that's for later on, IMO. Especially if you want to bolt, you will want 211 and 215. And more spell ranks also mean better DS; 102 adds +1 DS for every 2 ranks in that circle, 202 adds +1 for every 3. You will certainly want blues when facing spell casing critters, which you will later on. Also, how do you see yourself doing empath healing work? Want to go on rescues? 116 will help locate the person in need, while 225 and 130 will be your end goals in that case; the days of actually walking to rescue someone are long gone, unless they're on the moon or in Darkstone.
Note: If you have the cash, pure potions can substitute for 211, until such time as you actually learn the spell. You might also try something like having a friendly mage imbed 513 in an item for you; this will also raise your bolt AS. That sort of thing can get a bit expensive though, especially when you add wands in on top of those other items.
As your stats rise, you will get more TPs; start going for more than 2x in spells. That's when you can start really racking up extra empath circle spell ranks.
MIU and AS? Depends on what you want from these skills. 30 ranks of MIU and AS should let you use pretty much any wand or item or scroll. Further training, however, will extend the duration of invoked spells.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Note: If you have the cash, pure potions can substitute for 211, until such time as you actually learn the spell. You might also try something like having a friendly mage imbed 513 in an item for you; this will also raise your bolt AS. That sort of thing can get a bit expensive though, especially when you add wands in on top of those other items.
As your stats rise, you will get more TPs; start going for more than 2x in spells. That's when you can start really racking up extra empath circle spell ranks.
MIU and AS? Depends on what you want from these skills. 30 ranks of MIU and AS should let you use pretty much any wand or item or scroll. Further training, however, will extend the duration of invoked spells.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
TROUBLE13
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/20/2014 05:11 PM CDT
Even a bit above 50 with 2x in HP my empath doesn't have enough mana to go clear as a bell to fried in one hunt using bolt spells. I figured I'd give spell aim a shot because a couple creatures where he is hunting don't have bones but after a few hunts I regretted that decision. I've heard by maybe 70 there'd be enough mana but who knows. I know one person who said he was able to use bolts well earlier but he joined GoS and was using fire spirit against trolls.
For transformation lore 57 ranks is a good place to stop training it, this will give you 0 round time if you ever hit cap. Every 3 ranks takes 1 second off your round time so you'd be slightly better off training that up every 3 levels and skip it in between.
For summoning lore it does have other benefits besides web bolt, things like cross relm locating and allowing you to summon specific herbs with the herb production spell. Read through all the spells you'll have access to as an empath and see what all summoning lore affects then decide if you think it is worth it or not.
For AS I could read all but 1750 with 27 ranks of it, if that is all you are interested in is being able to read the spells on the scrolls. If it is for getting past the runes for the broken lands you'd likely need less. If you plan to use scrolls to augment your own defensive spells I'd suggest 1x.
For MIU, 40 ranks provides you with good chances of being able to activate anything and everything along with decent duration but if you use magic items a lot I'd suggest you 1x it.
Spell aim, I'd suggest you ditch it for now, you aren't going to really be getting anywhere with it at your level without using a lot of wands which sounds like something you don't want to be doing.
If you plan to boneshatter things the best thing you can do for yourself is to overtrain your empath circle. Before I changed my empath to give bolting a shot I went with a bare bones approach to training, no MIU, no AS, no spell aim, 2x PF, 1x FA, 1x perception, 1x climb/swim, 1x MMC when it affected boneshatter then switched that to SMC when they removed that feature, I had 120 at 20, 204, and any remaining points where dumped into empath spells. Early or mid 40s I decided I wanted to be fogging people, so I stopped major spirit at 225 and pushed minor spirit up to get 130. So, decide what kind of priority having those spells is to you, I only missed out on a couple of CS points by getting them when I did but if you shoot to have those spells at their given levels you'll miss a good chunk more.
For transformation lore 57 ranks is a good place to stop training it, this will give you 0 round time if you ever hit cap. Every 3 ranks takes 1 second off your round time so you'd be slightly better off training that up every 3 levels and skip it in between.
For summoning lore it does have other benefits besides web bolt, things like cross relm locating and allowing you to summon specific herbs with the herb production spell. Read through all the spells you'll have access to as an empath and see what all summoning lore affects then decide if you think it is worth it or not.
For AS I could read all but 1750 with 27 ranks of it, if that is all you are interested in is being able to read the spells on the scrolls. If it is for getting past the runes for the broken lands you'd likely need less. If you plan to use scrolls to augment your own defensive spells I'd suggest 1x.
For MIU, 40 ranks provides you with good chances of being able to activate anything and everything along with decent duration but if you use magic items a lot I'd suggest you 1x it.
Spell aim, I'd suggest you ditch it for now, you aren't going to really be getting anywhere with it at your level without using a lot of wands which sounds like something you don't want to be doing.
If you plan to boneshatter things the best thing you can do for yourself is to overtrain your empath circle. Before I changed my empath to give bolting a shot I went with a bare bones approach to training, no MIU, no AS, no spell aim, 2x PF, 1x FA, 1x perception, 1x climb/swim, 1x MMC when it affected boneshatter then switched that to SMC when they removed that feature, I had 120 at 20, 204, and any remaining points where dumped into empath spells. Early or mid 40s I decided I wanted to be fogging people, so I stopped major spirit at 225 and pushed minor spirit up to get 130. So, decide what kind of priority having those spells is to you, I only missed out on a couple of CS points by getting them when I did but if you shoot to have those spells at their given levels you'll miss a good chunk more.
THROGG
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/20/2014 06:38 PM CDT
>>Spell aim, I'd suggest you ditch it for now, you aren't going to really be getting anywhere with it at your level without using a lot of wands which sounds like something you don't want to be doing.<<
The poster specifically said he wanted to use wands, so I am assuming spell aiming as part of his skill set. I was at one time a pure caster (well, several times, actually; over 3 1/2 years I used 4 fixskills to go back and forth, trying out various types of skill sets). Among other things, without spell aim you won't be using empathic bolt; and wands are quite helpful for several reasons ... mana conservation, fire spell wands vs troll type foes, crystal and minor acid wands vs stone critters come to mind. As I mentioned, they can be expensive if you buy them, but with the right friends you can get them pretty much for free. Rangers can make wands and rods from sticks for you, and mages can then imbed spells in them. And they do have the advantage of saving you mana when hunting. Oh, and if you do use empathic bolt, pick up 5 ranks of telepathy lore for an extra damage cycle.
You can, of course, also only use CS based spells to hunt, and just come back to town and meditate if you run short of mana. I don't recall any law that mandates that you have to get fried every hunt. And a lot of critters that don't have bones or blood are susceptible to wither. Some folks say that there is no way to screw up an empath's training. They're wrong, but you really do have to work at it; the profession is quite flexible.
The poster specifically said he wanted to use wands, so I am assuming spell aiming as part of his skill set. I was at one time a pure caster (well, several times, actually; over 3 1/2 years I used 4 fixskills to go back and forth, trying out various types of skill sets). Among other things, without spell aim you won't be using empathic bolt; and wands are quite helpful for several reasons ... mana conservation, fire spell wands vs troll type foes, crystal and minor acid wands vs stone critters come to mind. As I mentioned, they can be expensive if you buy them, but with the right friends you can get them pretty much for free. Rangers can make wands and rods from sticks for you, and mages can then imbed spells in them. And they do have the advantage of saving you mana when hunting. Oh, and if you do use empathic bolt, pick up 5 ranks of telepathy lore for an extra damage cycle.
You can, of course, also only use CS based spells to hunt, and just come back to town and meditate if you run short of mana. I don't recall any law that mandates that you have to get fried every hunt. And a lot of critters that don't have bones or blood are susceptible to wither. Some folks say that there is no way to screw up an empath's training. They're wrong, but you really do have to work at it; the profession is quite flexible.
STAFFENDN
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/23/2014 03:35 PM CDT
Ok. I decided to go a little bit Nilandia on this build. Kinda doing a little of everything. Only managing 2x in spells. Honestly, I get bored bone shattering everything. And I'm enjoying the few bolts I can cast in a couple hunts. Never played a caster before, so this is fun.
My bolt DS sucks, but that's likely because I'm a runestaff user without a pocket wizard. Otherwise I can have fun with this so far. I know I won't really be bolting reliably for a while. But I am GoS, so Fire Spirit on trolls sounds like a really good idea to go for.
I didn't want to really rely on wands, but I kinda want to be able to use ones I come across. So I'll keep the spell aim, because the occasional 1 hit with empathic assault is fun. And really, I may not be that effective. I just hope its still fun over the next 10 levels or so.
One Last Question:
Should I run up MjS to 215? And then MnS up so that way when I finally do get 111 it is fairly potent? How should I progress those as a bolter/fire spiriter. With the understanding that I know I may not have the mana to really use it at all for another 10 trains or so?
(at level 17), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 132 36
Arcane Symbols.....................| 82 18
Magic Item Use.....................| 82 18
Spell Aiming.......................| 132 36
Harness Power......................| 126 33
Mental Mana Control................| 82 18
Spirit Mana Control................| 82 18
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 82 18
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 15 3
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 82 18
Perception.........................| 50 10
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 20 4
First Aid..........................| 136 38
Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 11
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7
Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 18
My bolt DS sucks, but that's likely because I'm a runestaff user without a pocket wizard. Otherwise I can have fun with this so far. I know I won't really be bolting reliably for a while. But I am GoS, so Fire Spirit on trolls sounds like a really good idea to go for.
I didn't want to really rely on wands, but I kinda want to be able to use ones I come across. So I'll keep the spell aim, because the occasional 1 hit with empathic assault is fun. And really, I may not be that effective. I just hope its still fun over the next 10 levels or so.
One Last Question:
Should I run up MjS to 215? And then MnS up so that way when I finally do get 111 it is fairly potent? How should I progress those as a bolter/fire spiriter. With the understanding that I know I may not have the mana to really use it at all for another 10 trains or so?
(at level 17), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 132 36
Arcane Symbols.....................| 82 18
Magic Item Use.....................| 82 18
Spell Aiming.......................| 132 36
Harness Power......................| 126 33
Mental Mana Control................| 82 18
Spirit Mana Control................| 82 18
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 82 18
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 15 3
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 82 18
Perception.........................| 50 10
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 20 4
First Aid..........................| 136 38
Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 11
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7
Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 18
THROGG
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/23/2014 07:20 PM CDT
>>My bolt DS sucks, but that's likely because I'm a runestaff user without a pocket wizard. <<
Runestaves can block bolts entirely; I doubt that's the problem. Blues, which you have, also add to bolt DS. You don't need a pocket wizard. I never relied on outside spells, except for white crystals and small statues. You shouldn't have too much problem with bolts unless the critters you are hunting have an unusually high bolt AS, or they are catching you in an offensive stance. Having said that, ball spells can be annoying. If they just barely nick you (101 end roll), the splash effect can do a lot more damage. Can you post any examples? Critters with bolt attacks aren't all that common; at the worst you can, if all else fails, just avoid them.
You are a little heavy on the lores, IMO; more MnS and MjS spell ranks will help your DS. And yes, 211/215 will buff your own bolt AS by a fair amount.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Runestaves can block bolts entirely; I doubt that's the problem. Blues, which you have, also add to bolt DS. You don't need a pocket wizard. I never relied on outside spells, except for white crystals and small statues. You shouldn't have too much problem with bolts unless the critters you are hunting have an unusually high bolt AS, or they are catching you in an offensive stance. Having said that, ball spells can be annoying. If they just barely nick you (101 end roll), the splash effect can do a lot more damage. Can you post any examples? Critters with bolt attacks aren't all that common; at the worst you can, if all else fails, just avoid them.
You are a little heavy on the lores, IMO; more MnS and MjS spell ranks will help your DS. And yes, 211/215 will buff your own bolt AS by a fair amount.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
STAFFENDN
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/24/2014 08:19 AM CDT
Which lores are too heavy? Transformation?
THROGG
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/24/2014 01:10 PM CDT
I was thinking more to cut back on blessing lore. I assume you are looking for the scar loss effect? The thing is, you need 50 ranks of this to heal a significant scar; remember, rank 1 scars have no real effect on character functions, so right now those 18 ranks aren't really doing much for you. And with enough transformation lore, you can just cure the scar relatively fast, although that does require an extra spell cast to do so.
As you can guess, I am not a big fan of blessing lore even for a pure caster who spends a lot of time healing others; there are so many lores to choose from. Also, if you are a bolter, get 5 ranks of telepathy lore instead, to get an extra CS damage cycle from empathic bolt.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male."
As you can guess, I am not a big fan of blessing lore even for a pure caster who spends a lot of time healing others; there are so many lores to choose from. Also, if you are a bolter, get 5 ranks of telepathy lore instead, to get an extra CS damage cycle from empathic bolt.
"For the female of the species
is more deadly than the male."
STAFFENDN
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/24/2014 02:58 PM CDT
So summoning, 5 ranks of telepathy (is it worth going higher in your opinion?), then onto transformation.
Leaving blessing at 0 for now.
Leaving blessing at 0 for now.
THROGG
Re: More on Empath Training (Pure/Bone Shatter pipeline)
07/24/2014 04:00 PM CDT
>> 5 ranks of telepathy (is it worth going higher in your opinion?),<<
Ah, that's a matter of opinion. The next cycle occurs at 20 ranks, if I recall. Is the cost worth the benefit? Also note that there is a bunch of other stuff that improves empathic assault, some of which you will probably train in anyway for other reasons; you might want to train in them instead. 5 ranks gives you the initial bolt attack plus 2 CS cycles. Can you kill most of your targets by that time? More than likely, you will also be hitting the target with other spells/attacks. To me, the extra telepathy ranks are a bit pricey to get one more CS cycle, but I am sure someone else might feel differently.
Mind you, there are a couple of other uses for telepathy lore, but to me this would be the main one, unless you want to use empathy a lot, or instill feelings of sympathy in undead.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
Ah, that's a matter of opinion. The next cycle occurs at 20 ranks, if I recall. Is the cost worth the benefit? Also note that there is a bunch of other stuff that improves empathic assault, some of which you will probably train in anyway for other reasons; you might want to train in them instead. 5 ranks gives you the initial bolt attack plus 2 CS cycles. Can you kill most of your targets by that time? More than likely, you will also be hitting the target with other spells/attacks. To me, the extra telepathy ranks are a bit pricey to get one more CS cycle, but I am sure someone else might feel differently.
Mind you, there are a couple of other uses for telepathy lore, but to me this would be the main one, unless you want to use empathy a lot, or instill feelings of sympathy in undead.
"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
