Moved over from a thread in F2P Subscription.
<< Just out of curiosity, what did you think about the overall speed of combat? Too fast? Too slow? Just right? I ask because Simu's had this thing lately where they want to slow combat down because they're worried it'll be too fast and confusing for new F2P players. I know you're technically not a new player, but yeah. >>
For me combat falls into two categories: killing stuff and doing stuff. I've read the boards and it seems that high end combat is all about maximizing crit chance to ensure insta kills. Excluding claidhmores, low end combat isn't like this. It's more about establishing an equilibrium and surviving. You have the opportunity to do a lot more at the low end since you're not just relying solely on an insta kill. To me this is much more fun.
The only gripe I have about combat is that I wish there were more things to do. More mana for casters or revised mana costs for spells so casting higher level debuffs or damage spells was actually feasible before you're level 50+. CMANs actually being effective. I tried to make a shield bashing Ranger and gave up on him because SBASH never worked. There's a lot of minor adjustments that could be made at the lower end to make playing a lot more fun.
As for your original question about speed. I think it's fine. 1-20 you swing something or cast some spells. I hope it doesn't become too fast 20+ as I grow into my spells, because I'd be sad if I never got to use the level 10+ debuffs that I couldn't use previously because they cost too much to justify.
RHAZIN
DRUMPEL
Re: New Player Experience
05/17/2016 12:59 PM CDT
>The only gripe I have about combat is that I wish there were more things to do. More mana for casters or revised mana costs for spells so casting higher level debuffs or damage spells was actually feasible before you're level 50+. CMANs actually being effective. I tried to make a shield bashing Ranger and gave up on him because SBASH never worked. There's a lot of minor adjustments that could be made at the lower end to make playing a lot more fun.
I agree with you about low starting mana. I've always thought that the starting mana was too low and it sucked trying to be a spell slinger. The free mana spell (1700), while nice, becomes rather ineffective once you start hunting creatures with decent health. 1700 works great on rats or kobolds and the like, but you start hunting things like lesser orcs, manticores and the like, 1700 takes too long to make it worth while to depend on.
I made a suggestion a while back about possibly adjusting the way starting mana is calculated, but never heard anything back about it from player or staff. You can find it here: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Game%20Design/view/3214
For anyone that's F2P and you cannot access the linked post, here is the post in it's entirety:
-Drumpel
I agree with you about low starting mana. I've always thought that the starting mana was too low and it sucked trying to be a spell slinger. The free mana spell (1700), while nice, becomes rather ineffective once you start hunting creatures with decent health. 1700 works great on rats or kobolds and the like, but you start hunting things like lesser orcs, manticores and the like, 1700 takes too long to make it worth while to depend on.
I made a suggestion a while back about possibly adjusting the way starting mana is calculated, but never heard anything back about it from player or staff. You can find it here: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Game%20Design/view/3214
For anyone that's F2P and you cannot access the linked post, here is the post in it's entirety:
| It would be nice to have a larger mana pool at the start. |
| Right now a Wizard can have a max of 17 mana once they leave the character creation should they not train in any harness power. Mana = trunc((statbonus1 + statbonus2)/4) |
| A wizard with 100 Aura, Dark Elf, has an Aura bonus of 35. That gives you 17 ((35+35)/4) starting mana. For level 1 you can possibly have 25 mana if you 3x HP for your level 0 and level 1 skills. |
| That's actually a lot of mana for only having the ability to cast level 1 spells. However, once you hit level 5 and your options really start to open up to what you can hunt (no more rats! yeah!) and what spells you can use, if you can keep up the 3x HP you'll have 45 mana and that's not half bad. Let's be realistic here though, most people will 1-2x HP. The cost of TPs required to 3x each level severely detracts from other important skills you need or lores that are importan.....ummm...not really worth training in still, except for Air Lore. |
| It would be better if the starting mana for pures was instead based off trunc((manastat1 + manastat2) / 4). This way a wizard that maybe puts 60 in his Aura stat since he knows it grows fairly well, his starting mana would be trunc((60 + 60) /4) = 30. Now, 1x in HP and at level 5 the wizard would have 46 mana. If he wanted to 2x HP, he'd be sitting on 52 mana. |
| The same wizard with starting mana based off the Aura bonus would have 7 mana. 1x HP to level 5 = 23 mana total. 2x HP to level 5 = 29 mana. |
| My wizard is level 80 dark elf. Aura was started at 80 (bonus of 25) and 124 ranks of HP. He currently has 296 mana. If his starting mana was based off the stat and not the bonus, he would have ((80+80)/4) + 284 (from HP) = 324. He would have 28 more mana over the current way mana is calculated. I don't see 28 mana being a game breaking thing. It gives my wizard the ability to cast call wind 2 more times or ewave 2 more times while out hunting. |
| Have pure starting mana be trunc((manastat1 + manastat2)/4) |
| Have semi starting mana be trunc((manastat1 + manastat2)/6) |
| Have square starting mana be trunc((manastat1 + manastat2)/8) |
| Semi's would have a pretty much similar mana base (slightly better if they start their mana stats higher) as they do now when starting and squares will have a lower mana starting base as they do now, but they're squares and should have lower mana over a semi or pure. |
| Bard for example. Elf, 70 in Aura and 70 in Influence |
| Current starting mana is trunc((15 + 20)/4) = 8 |
| 1x in HP by level 5 = 24 mana |
| 1x in HP by level 40 = 129 mana |
| Under new starting mana, same Bard, 70 Aura, 70 Influence |
| starting mana is trunc((70 + 70)/6) = 23 |
| 1x in HP by level 5 = 39 mana |
| 1x in HP by level 40 = 144 mana |
| Just an idea.... |
| -Drumpel (I hope all my math was correct) |
-Drumpel
GS4-ESTILD
Re: New Player Experience
05/17/2016 01:10 PM CDT
| Drumpel |
| For anyone that's F2P and you cannot access the linked post, here is the post in it's entirety: |
F2P players (like any user that doesn't sign in) have access to read any topic.
GameMaster Estild
DRUMPEL
Re: New Player Experience
05/17/2016 01:24 PM CDT
>F2P players (like any user that doesn't sign in) have access to read any topic.
>GameMaster Estild
Good to know. I suppose I've never browsed the forums without logging in. Thanks.
-Drumpel
>GameMaster Estild
Good to know. I suppose I've never browsed the forums without logging in. Thanks.
-Drumpel
GS4-AULIS
Re: New Player Experience
05/17/2016 03:00 PM CDT
<<Good to know. I suppose I've never browsed the forums without logging in. Thanks.
Even if you're logged in on an F2P account you still have access to reading any category and topics within.
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
Even if you're logged in on an F2P account you still have access to reading any category and topics within.
~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
ZENDADA
Re: New Player Experience
05/17/2016 06:16 PM CDT
Welcome back. The beauty of GS is that it takes as long as you want. You can do a snipe built or a claid build. There are so many options. And the players are generally great. Lots of RP with for me is 3/4 the fun of a fictional interactive fantasy/steampunk text game.
Early levels should be hard. But not so hard you can't play. Check out the gswiki for info on everything. I disagree that there is some conspiracy by the GMs to sabotage the fun and playability of this game. I see commitment, dedication, and really great things in the past few years from staff. Heck, even having an F2P option is relatively new and a great idea.
I've met players and staff at a con 2 years ago and, man, talk about a fun group of people to hang out with and talk about this game while eating pizza, doughnuts, and drinking a beer or two? Could not be a nicer group!
Chad, player of a few
Early levels should be hard. But not so hard you can't play. Check out the gswiki for info on everything. I disagree that there is some conspiracy by the GMs to sabotage the fun and playability of this game. I see commitment, dedication, and really great things in the past few years from staff. Heck, even having an F2P option is relatively new and a great idea.
I've met players and staff at a con 2 years ago and, man, talk about a fun group of people to hang out with and talk about this game while eating pizza, doughnuts, and drinking a beer or two? Could not be a nicer group!
Chad, player of a few
SIMU-LIIA
DAID
Re: New Player Experience
05/19/2016 04:25 AM CDT
I did my first pure build from 0 to 15 since the old days, and it worked fine. I was at 3x HP, though even by level 15 I'm down to around 2x. Also consider that the only really useful hunting spell is Bone Shatter which is 6 mana. (Harm is mostly a joke now that there's Arcane Blast.) Since wizards have 901, there shouldn't be a big problem I wouldn't think. Wizards also have access to a lot of useful wands; I suppose I could have done Spell Aiming and MIU with my empath, but those aren't nearly as cheap as for a wizard. There aren't even Bone Shatter wands in the treasure system.
I'll grant that without CoL hunting at my present level, I couldn't get friend hunting unless I had wands or a partner.
I think the available amount of mana is basically fine as it is. I had high stats in the first 30 days, and then I dropped them down for growth. However, I can see how this approach to the system (i.e. Cheatyface) would probably be confusing to new players, so I can see more of the merit to it. Also, at least the Beginner's Guide to Playing an Empath says literally nothing anywhere about training more than 1x HP, which considering the cost of Bone Shatter I think I'll have to go edit that page...
I'll grant that without CoL hunting at my present level, I couldn't get friend hunting unless I had wands or a partner.
I think the available amount of mana is basically fine as it is. I had high stats in the first 30 days, and then I dropped them down for growth. However, I can see how this approach to the system (i.e. Cheatyface) would probably be confusing to new players, so I can see more of the merit to it. Also, at least the Beginner's Guide to Playing an Empath says literally nothing anywhere about training more than 1x HP, which considering the cost of Bone Shatter I think I'll have to go edit that page...
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: New Player Experience
05/20/2016 01:26 AM CDT
>However, I can see how this approach to the system (i.e. Cheatyface) would probably be confusing to new players, so I can see more of the merit to it.
Why back in my day we placed our stats like crap because we had no idea what we were doing and then we were stuck with them forever and by golly we loved it!
~ Methais
Why back in my day we placed our stats like crap because we had no idea what we were doing and then we were stuck with them forever and by golly we loved it!
~ Methais
BRANDTJRT
Re: New Player Experience
05/20/2016 01:39 AM CDT
>>Why back in my day we placed our stats like crap because we had no idea what we were doing and then we were stuck with them forever and by golly we loved it!
Or we let the system do it automatically and give us a 20 in Discipline and 100 in Reflexes as Rogues for some reason! And we were happy about it!
...even if it confuses us to this day.
Or we let the system do it automatically and give us a 20 in Discipline and 100 in Reflexes as Rogues for some reason! And we were happy about it!
...even if it confuses us to this day.
KITHUS
Re: New Player Experience
05/20/2016 04:47 AM CDT
Let the system do it for us? No back in the day we used an auto roller to try to get the highest possible stat total. Letting it run for hours, or even days, to get us that near perfect roll.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Keith is correct
Wyrom, APM
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Keith is correct
Wyrom, APM
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
DAID
Re: New Player Experience
05/20/2016 06:12 AM CDT
>Let the system do it for us? No back in the day we used an auto roller to try to get the highest possible stat total. Letting it run for hours, or even days, to get us that near perfect roll.
Kaldonis's roll was like a 673 or so. Definitely the highest roll I'd ever seen. I don't really remember the odds any more, but we had programmed our TI calculators to simulate the roller and also calculate the probabilities of getting certain summation rolls, and then rough estimates for the amount of time it would take to get certain summed rolls assuming like 3 rolls per second.
>and by golly we loved it!
I actually do kind of miss the auto-roller, truth be told. If nothing else because the starting 640 now was kind of near the bare-minimum range of acceptability. Granted, sometimes you'd get an upper 650 but there would be something super wonky about it (like the free roll of 20 to 100 was stuck at 65 while all the other numbers were beautiful). On the other hand, getting disconnected after a nice roll was achieved was always the worst. Although I don't think many people are using dial-up still these days...
Kaldonis's roll was like a 673 or so. Definitely the highest roll I'd ever seen. I don't really remember the odds any more, but we had programmed our TI calculators to simulate the roller and also calculate the probabilities of getting certain summation rolls, and then rough estimates for the amount of time it would take to get certain summed rolls assuming like 3 rolls per second.
>and by golly we loved it!
I actually do kind of miss the auto-roller, truth be told. If nothing else because the starting 640 now was kind of near the bare-minimum range of acceptability. Granted, sometimes you'd get an upper 650 but there would be something super wonky about it (like the free roll of 20 to 100 was stuck at 65 while all the other numbers were beautiful). On the other hand, getting disconnected after a nice roll was achieved was always the worst. Although I don't think many people are using dial-up still these days...
KRAKII
Re: New Player Experience
05/20/2016 09:58 AM CDT
"Kaldonis's roll was like a 673 or so." -- Daid
To this day, I regret getting bored with the Mage and putting him on the shelf for so many years before the GS4 conversion. He was rolled under the ICE rules, and all of his stats had hit their Potentials by the time we deiced; he was level 6. Sure, he missed out on double-training in spells 8 times, but with those stats I could make up for it.
When we did the conversion to the web, he was 6th level with a stat total of 846.
Sure, I hunted him up during the free experience multiplier in the summer of 1997 after the shift to the web, but he wasn't really terribly exciting to play. I got him to the low 30s and got bored. :( Should have powered my way through a bunch more.
Ahhh, well.
To this day, I regret getting bored with the Mage and putting him on the shelf for so many years before the GS4 conversion. He was rolled under the ICE rules, and all of his stats had hit their Potentials by the time we deiced; he was level 6. Sure, he missed out on double-training in spells 8 times, but with those stats I could make up for it.
When we did the conversion to the web, he was 6th level with a stat total of 846.
| CO | DX | DI | LO | IN | ST | RX | CH | WI | AU | Phys/Ment |
| 99 | 100 | 95 | 91 | 93 | 84 | 87 | 41 | 56 | 100 | 56p / 47m |
Sure, I hunted him up during the free experience multiplier in the summer of 1997 after the shift to the web, but he wasn't really terribly exciting to play. I got him to the low 30s and got bored. :( Should have powered my way through a bunch more.
Ahhh, well.
BRANDTJRT
Re: New Player Experience
05/20/2016 11:08 AM CDT
Oh, the autorolling, there was something exciting about the potential there.
SIMU-LIIA
Re: New Player Experience
05/25/2016 09:23 PM CDT
I remember waking up in the middle of the night and checking the autoroller. Nothing obsessive there, nope. Not at all.
~Liia
APM, Gemstone IV
~Liia
APM, Gemstone IV
