Based on my recent research into the mysteries of enchanting. It may not be 100% accurate (very likely is not!) but it seems to be at least directionally accurate so I thought I would throw it out for people to poke holes in (I'm looking at you Doug!):

All comments and feedback are welcome!

Enchanting formula as follows:

(Wizard Level / 2) + (2 * Wizard Spells known to level) + (1.6*Wizard Spells known above level) + (2 * ROUND(Mje / 4)) + (EMC bonus / 5) + (2 * (MIU bonus / 25)) + (2* (AS bonus / 25)) + Aura bonus + Logic bonus + (Int bonus / 2) - Node/workshop bonus + familiar modifier - Encumbrance modifier - Injury modifier - (10 * enchant bonus of item) + material modifier + additional item modifiers + potion modifiers + 10 + D100

Result must be >= 101 for a successful enchant cast.

Additional Formula Notes:

- Wizard Level / 2: All of my testing has been done at Level = 100. Possibly this could actually be Level (vs. Level / 2) where enchant bonus of item is based on target enchant vs. current enchant). The result is the same either way for a level 100 wizard. At some point I'll test this out on my lower level warmage when they have learned the appropriate spell.

- Wizard spells above training level - I didn't do a lot of testing here but it seems to add in the ballpark of 1.6 per spell known past level. There could potentially be an additional cutoff point where this is further reduced.

- MjE: Maybe the formula is slightly different but I first gained a bonus at 2 and 6 ranks in Mje training.

- EMC bonus: My testing was a little light on this item.

- MIU/AS: This seems to hold true overall but I had some wonkiness early on so there may be some additional factor where AS / MIU are incorporated into the same calc or something else here).

- Node/workshop bonus: The workship in the wizard's guild provides a bonus of +100

- Familiar modifier: +20 if your familiar is summoned and with you / -20 if your familiar is summoned and NOT with you.

- Encumbrance modifier: This roughly works out to a modifier of -(0.85 * lbs encumbered).

Injury Modifier: I didn't test this. Why would you enchant while injured?!?!

Material Modifier: Using the tables provided by Estild

Additional Item Modifiers:
- Fusion (-175)
- HCP (~ -80)
- Sanctified (I couldn't discern any difference between sanctified and non).
- Spiked (I couldn't tell a difference)
- Ensorcelled (I don't trust my results as my test items were too dissimilar but I calculated out a -550 for a T4). Possibly there is some sort of scaling that goes on between ensorcess and enchant)
- Partial Enchant: not tested. I wanted to see if +12 was treated as a 12 or as a full enchant (+15) but I missed this test.

Potion modifiers: All of my testing was done CASTing 925 on unpoured items. It is possible that the pre-temper potions add a substantial bonus or penalty (specifically wondering about Sanctified items).

Plus 10 modifier: I don't like this modifier at all but it seems to fix my formula each time I test it so... for now we have a Plus 10 modifier.

Formula example using current project for Faulkil:

Level: 100
Wiz: 240
Mje: 20
EMC: 202 (302)
MIU: 202 (302)
AS: 202 (302)
Aura: 100 (35)
Logic: 100 (25)
Int: 100 (30)
In a guild workshop with a familiar present.
Not Encumbered or injured.
4x (+17) going to 5x (+22) adamantine weapon.
Using a Dirtokh potion (no pre-temper potion required)

(100/50) + (2*100) + (1.6*140) + 2*(20/4) + (302/5) + (2*(302/25)) + (2*(302/25)) + 35 + 25 + (30/2) + 100 + 20 - 0 - 200 - 500 +/- ?? + 10 + D100

50 + 200 + 224 + 10 + 60 + 24 + 24 + 35 + 25 + 15 + 100 + 20 - 700 + 10 + D100

797 - 700 + D100

97 + D100 (roll of 101+ needed)



General approach to testing:

Basic assumptions:

- The only hard numbers we have been given for enchanting are for material modifiers. So I assumed those are correct and anything dervived should jive with these.

- I guessed that the ranges provided by Estild for Ensorcell chance of success would also corresponded to the ranges utilized in enchanting when CASTing 925 given the similarity of the messages. So one of my tasks was to set out and prove this.

- I assumed (hoped) that Encumbrance would scale pound for pound on the penalties (it appears that it does). One of my first taks was to test and validate that this was the case as this would enable me to manipuate project messaging to right on the edge of a message so that I could then change something and measure how much I had to counter it with additional encumbrance.

Process:

First step was to drop my training down to what I hoped would be a good testing range. I can't easily infuence level or stat bonuese but, as luck would have it, when I dropped all of spells down to 25 in Wizard and all of the relevant enchanting skills down to 0 I ended up in a pretty sweet testing spot for 2x / 3x / 4x projects (they weren't already too easy) and was able to mess around with various materials.

I determined that 160 silver equals roughtly 1 lb. and then for my various project pieces (I used a 1x mithril targe, 2x ora targe, and 3x glaes targe from the armory) I insured that everything was on me that I needed to test (even picking up a note can impact your encumbrance) and that i was not encumbered while holding what was needed.

For each project piece I would get enough silver to start to be encumbered and to bring the piece within 5 silvers of crossing over the 925 messaging threshold and then I would count how many lbs of couns (or fractions thereof) it took to lower the messaging down to the next message. I repeated this for all of the messaging down to 'need a miracle'. Also, to make sure the silvers weren't behaving in some unknown fashion, I also validated using objects of known (bardsung) weights to see if I got the same message change results using objects vs coins (I did).

I also took objects of the same enchant made of materials with different modifiers and confirmed the difference in lbs of silvers it took to bring each project down to the same message threshold (keep in mind that I am already holding both projects in inventory so weight doesn't matter).

Ultimatly I was able to determine that each pound (fractional pounds actually apply) corresponded to a modifier of roughly -0.85 and that each +1/-1 represented 1% on the message range table (so basically it is a D100 range vs. a percent range that could represent a larger or smaller range of numbers).

From there it gets simple. Grab an item that falls somewhere in the middle of the success range table, grab silvers until you just cross over a threshold, change something (I have a bag of enhancives that cover all of the enchanting attributes) and then measure how many silvers it takes to bring the messaging back down to the original theshold. Each .85 lbs of silver represent a change to the bonus of 1.

Once I had some basic assumptions then I dug into more detail on some of the stats that didn't quite make sense and basically walked them up one at a time observing where the changes took place (e.g. ever 4th increment of MjE would change).

Likewise, for testing negative penalties, find two 'similar' items (e.g. two sets of armor with the same enchant / material (you can adjust for the known material differences if needed) and baseline with the harder of the two items (e.g HCP armor) then swap to the earier item and measure how many silver it takes to get the messaging back down to where you baselines the harder piece. Every .85 pounds of silver represents a point.

There is some rough rounding taking place but directionally the numbers seem to tie out pretty well. Feel free to ask if something wasn't clear or you have additional questions on how or what I did.


-- Robert aka Faulkil

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

Thanks Faulkil, you are the man...err...mage...err...both!

ASkip

Thanks for this. I was excited talking to you in game about the potential certainly enjoying your findings thus far.

I didn't test for it but it wasn't in the list of factors that Naos provided way back when:

SUCCESS FACTORS

The following factors attribute to a project's success and are listed in no particular order:
Logic, Intuition, and Aura bonuses
Level
Major Elemental spells known
Wizard spells known
Arcane Symbols skill
Magic Item Use skill
Choosing the appropriate potion for the project
Using a workshop or node
Having your familiar present
Elemental Mana Control skill

FAILURE FACTORS

The following factors attribute to a project's failure and are listed in no particular order:
Low health
Injuries
Low spirit
Encumbrance
Type of material of the item (some materials are more resistant)
Having critters present

-The how, why, and when of success and failure factors is up to the Wizard to figure out.-


-- Robert

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

Impressive work. Thank you very much for your contribution!

Wyrom says, "Ordim is the reason savants won't be coded as well."

>>I would throw it out for people to poke holes

I like it! I like it a lot!!

Hmm. . . I need to put this up so my tired old eyes have something to refer to. Lessee. . .

Stat	Value	Mod	Bonus
Level	100	x/2	50
Wizard Spells Known (to Level)	100	2x	200
Wizard Spells Known (over level)	140	1.6x	224
MjE Spells Known	20	2*(x/4)	10
EMC (Bonus)	302	x/5	60
MIU Bonus	302	2*(x/25)	24
AS Bonus	302	2*(x/25)	24
Aur Bonus	35	1x	35
Log Bonus	25	1x	25
Int Bonus	30	x/2	15
Workshop Bonus	varies	varies	100 (??)
Familiar Bonus	Present or not	0 or 20	20 (??)
Encumbrance Modifier	Unencumbered	-1 per lb (160 coins) encumbrance	0
Injury Modifier	Uninjured	varies	0
Current enchant modifier	17	10x	-170
Material modifier	-500	see chart	-500
Properties modifier	varies	see chart	0
Potion modifier	varies	see chart	??
(Unknown mod)	?	?	10
Total	-	-	XXX

So from your numbers, Robert, I see a couple of things I don't understand. I don't know we'll be able to derive anything specific, but it's worth looking at. And I'll see if I can use this information to dial things in a bit more.

First question - +20 for a familiar present. I don't see it reflected in your methodology. Can you check your notes and confirm cast with / without familiar and change in value?

Second question - +100 for a Guild / CHE workshop. Did you move from the Guild / CHE workshop to a public node to confirm cast in a non-node, then a public node versus Guild / CHE node? And we need to find at least one wizard (where's Nighthawk when you need him?!) to test the delta in a private workshop. Any volunteers? (And no, Robert, my material support doesn't extend quite that high. ;P)

First observation - I believe the 'pour modifiers' for the potions do not equal the 'success modifiers' for enchanting. I could be totally wrong, and hung up from the potion use in DB-A (days before Altiron). This is one possible source for your 'delta 10' modifier you experienced.

Second observation - I suspect some injuries are more 'hurtful' than others - nerves comes to mind. And something I've always wondered (I'll possibly do some of this research) scars versus injuries.

Third observation - I see -500 for the material, but don't understand why a flat -200 (instead of -170 or -220) came from for the current enchant modifier. Did I miss something?

Good stuff, and thanks again for putting this body of research up! It deserves its own Player Research wiki page so the contributions can continue, and it stays available.

Doug

>> First question - +20 for a familiar present. I don't see it reflected in your methodology. Can you check your notes and confirm cast with / without familiar and change in value?

This was confirmed both for familiar present and familiar elsewhere (an no familiar summoned). +20 / -20 / 0

It is the highlighted value from my example below:

(100/50) + (2*100) + (1.6*140) + 2*(20/4) + (302/5) + (2*(302/25)) + (2*(302/25)) + 35 + 25 + (30/2) + 100 + 20 - 0 - 200 - 500 +/- ?? + 10 + D100

Methodology: Baseline a project to the message edge without a familiar summoned. Summon a familiar (and keep them in the room) and then re-baseline the project back down. Result for me was +20. The Icemule bank allows familiars to come in with you to make this easier. Likewise baseline a project with a familiar summoned but elsewhere, bring the familiar to you and re-baseline. Difference less 20 (is the penalty)

>> Second question - +100 for a Guild / CHE workshop. Did you move from the Guild / CHE workshop to a public node to confirm cast in a non-node, then a public node versus Guild / CHE node?

I tested in a 'normal' room vs. the guild workshop only. I would expect a private workshop to have a higher value and a node to be lower. I don't have a private workshop to test and didn't bother testing a node (because... why would you enchant on a node when you can use the guild workshop? :p Method: Baseline project in a normal room, move to a guild workshop and see how much encumbrance you need to add to bring it back down to your starting point. Result: +100

>> First observation - I believe the 'pour modifiers' for the potions do not equal the 'success modifiers' for enchanting.

I don't know if the pour modifiers correlate to enchanting mods or not but I do believe that some potions may impact enchanting results. Partially this is based on the statements around the inaccuracy of CASTing 925 due to the potion not having been poured. Possibly this only relates to flaring projects where the potion can in fact reduce the flare difficulty penalty. Interestingly I just now realized that I neglected to test flaring weapon modifiers... telling as to my overall interest in enchanting common flaring weapons I think.

>> Third observation - I see -500 for the material, but don't understand why a flat -200 (instead of -170 or -220) came from for the current enchant modifier. Did I miss something?

Current assumption (mine) is that a partial enchant is treated at the full enchant level (e.g. +11 through +15 would all be treated as +15 for -150). This may be a bad assumptions! I had intended to test partial enchants and it sort of got lost along the way. I'll probably look test this out in the coming week though as I am curious and the impact on result is not negligible (17 vs 20 is 30 points!)

>> Good stuff, and thanks again for putting this body of research up! It deserves its own Player Research wiki page so the contributions can continue, and it stays available.

I pretty much limit myself to minor edits / error corrections on the wiki but if someone wants to setup a page and paste this in as a starting point I'd be happy to contribute there going forward.

-- Robert

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

>>Partially this is based on the statements around the inaccuracy of CASTing 925 due to the potion not having been poured.

Hmm. . . I thought this was 'corrected', and no longer relevant.

>>on the wiki but if someone wants to setup a page

I'm pretty sure it'll happen, if it's not already done. Sometimes I think to myself "good stuff, needs a wiki page!!" only to find out SOMEone has already beaten me to it. . .

Doug

>only to find out SOMEone has already beaten me to it. . .

not this time. it's the lead up to EG

>> Encumbrance Modifier Unencumbered -1 per lb (160 coins) encumbrance 0

Sorry for the third post - I just noticed a misstatement in your chart. It is -1 per .85 lbs (where 1 lb = 160 coins). It's an important point because otherwise all of your results will be way off when you start to calculate bonuses.

What I usually ended up doing was adding coins until the correct message was achieved (hence all the time I spent standing in the bank casting at projects for a couple of days) and then take the resulting delta, divide by 160, multiply by .85 for the bonus.

Example:

- Basline project you are encumbered with 1,170 coins and on the top edge of the message 'this project will be very difficult':
- Put on an enchancive you have handy that adds +2 to logic bonus.
- Cast on your project and now it reads that 'this project will be difficult, but possible'... an improvement!
- Grab more coins until you just break over to 'this project will be very difficult' again. Let's say you now have 1,545 silver in your pocket.
- Take the difference in the coins in your pocket 'now' and the coins in your pocket at 'baseline' and do math:

Calc Now - Baseline: 1545 - 1170
Result: 375
Divide by 160 to get lbs: 375/160 = 2,34375
Multiply by .85 to determine modifier based on .85 lbs per point: 2.34375 * 0.85 = 1.9921875 (close enough to 2 to call it +2)

I suspect some of the error is that my .85 is approximate. I also suspect that internally gemstone keeps track of wight different (e.g. 1/16th of a pound so a weigh value of 16 = 1 lb or something like that) I don't really know but it is more granular than in lbs and as such my .85 may be only a rough, but workable, approximation. For small ranges of values (e.g. +1 or +5) it isn't going to be far enough off to matter (i.e. 1.992 is close enough to 2). Now if were were launching satellites into space or something then I'd need to get that .85 down to something much more precise.

-- Robert

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

"Which is ironic, since she rarely does anything herself." -- Doug

Ehhh?!? Shpeak into the ear-trumpet, shonny!

.

.

(This is what lackeys are for. Criminy! What're they teaching spellcasters for these days?!? This is why you have minions, boy!)

Calc Now - Baseline: 1545 - 1170

Result: 375

Divide by 160 to get lbs: 375/160 = 2,34375

Multiply by .85 to determine modifier based on .85 lbs per point: 2.34375 * 0.85 = 1.9921875 (close enough to 2 to call it +2)-PEREGRINEFALCON

Very nice work on this project but I do have a correction and some additional info for you.

You can scrap the .85 lb per point penalty even though it did yield values for your character that are very close to the actual ones.

The encumbrance penalty calculations are very straighforward. The penalties are based on percentages of a character's body weight. Your character, I believe, is a Dark Elf with 100 STR and 100 CON stats. This translates to a total body weight of 233 lbs. For each 1% encumbrance (2.33 lbs or 372.8 coins) there is a 2 point enchant penalty. Notice how close this is to the 2.34375 lbs. and 375 silver values you calculated. A Halfling with a body weight of 110 lbs would have a 2 point penalty for each 1.1 lbs (110 * .01) of encumbered weight. Note also that the enchant penalty is 2x the pour potion penalty which is 1 point per 1% encumbrance.

TL:DR Each 1% encumbrance of a character's body weight will result in a 2 pt. enchant penalty and a 1 pt. potion pour penalty.

---

1. Verified a +100 bonus for wizard workshop and +20 additional bonus with familiar present.
2. Earthnode bonus is +40 bonus
3. For a 1x to 2x project the pour penalty with Rohnuru on a project originally enchanted by another wizard was -25. I don't know if the penalty increases with higher enchant projects and other potions. I didn't notice an increase in enchant difficulty but this should be tested further.
4. With 50% encumbrance the enchant penalty is 100 points but it is not capped at that level. The penalty continues to increase above 100 with encumbrance greater than 50%.

I'll try and get more info for you but I'll only be around for a couple of weeks before I fade into the woodwork again.

Mark

It's a Mark sighting!

Hope all's well, Mark - and thanks for the lore you've created and continue to create.

Doug

> 4. With 50% encumbrance the enchant penalty is 100 points but it is not capped at that level. The penalty continues to increase above 100 with encumbrance greater than 50%.

Agree. This seemed to go as far as I wanted / needed to take it to bring different projects back to my baseline point. Which is a good thing for testing purposes.

This was my first time delving into character encumbrance so appreciate the encumbrance 101 lesson. It's an especially excellent callout since, as you point out, a halfling trying to validate the formula would get a very different result trying to use the .85 value than I did with my dark elf.


-- Robert

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

>> Player review requested (Robert, especially you. No, not you, Robert. Robert. Yes.)

I'll take a look at it as well later this evening. :p

-- Robert

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

I have decided that it is generally more fun not to differentiate. :p

Doug - GREAT JOB! Thanks for doing this. I made a few edits where there were references to the .85 value that we have since discarded in favor of the more correct reference to encumbrance.

My current plan is to not do much more with this for the next 9 or so months outside of validating expected results against actual results. Then, when I am ready to fixskill back into 'normal' Faulkil I will use that opportunity to validate / confirm / test anything that has been brought to light until that point.

Current items on my list for next round:
- Test partial enchants (e.g. +12 vs. +15). My current theory is they will both be treated as +15
- Validate the Level / 2 assumption (my war mage should know 925 by then)
- Validate enchant penalty for common flares. My expectation (total guess) is that it will turn out to be either -50 or -100 and that the infused pre-temper potions will counter up to either half or all of the penalty. Unlikely I'll be testing the 2nd part of this any time soon but can at least look at the initial penalty.
- Play around with the skill mods a bit more to figure out what was going on with my early MIU results.
- Do a bit more testing around Ensorcell modifiers. I may need to reach out to the community on this one, I have very few ensorcelled items and the ones I do have other properties on them that might make testing more challenging.

Also, my current projects are HARD and one of them requires a pre-temper potion so I will also do some pre/post potion pour testing as well.

-- Robert

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

Let's agree on an item or three next time we talk that we can both enchant up to 4x. We can then validate against each others project to test the result.

My theory is that there is NO penalty for enchanting someone else's project (this is not listed in the factors that impact enchanting as provided by Naos). So I would suggest that the penalty is limited to pours only.

But let's find out!

-- Robert

Liia announces, "Funnel cakes will now be delivered door to door in your neighborhood!"

Sadly, greps for 'prior', 'naos', 'previous', and 'enchant' did not turn up the quote that I was looking for.
It may still be in something that I printed out years ago, but since those pages got scanned as a PDF image--and I have not yet bothered to devote cycles to OCR conversion--I cannot go through those in anything like a reasonable fashion.

.

<pause>

.

Fortunately, it turned out to be in my archive of game changes, rather than fun Boards stuff.

---

By: GS4-NAOS
Re: Enchanting the previously enchanted
On: 5/23/2006
At: 2:37:23 PM
##: 3043



As far as I know, no systems mess with the last enchanter setting other than the Enchanting system. If you loresing the item, whoever it tells you was the last enchanter, that's who it was as far as the Enchanting system is concerned.

If that isn't your character, there will be a penalty, and that's all she wrote.

Also, just to clarify, this is applied to tempering an item for enchanting, not on the actual enchant casts.

--
Naos

If testing help is needed I volunteer, I am not a numbers person but Askip has his fixskill to burn and 25m exp.

Also, enough BPs for a fixskill potion or two if that helps.

Thanks to all the crunchers!

:D

Thanks, Mark - I'll update the enchant wiki page with the pour information, if it's not already present.

Thoughts on whether or not the same penalty (or different value, but same concept penalty) applies to the enchant cast on the cured item itself?

Doug