The ESP system has come a long way. I realize that and I don't want to detract from your efforts on this system in any way. However, I do see some room for improvement.
Let me begin by explaining my perspective. Whenever I find a new player I go out of my way to help them out and offer to answer any questions I can for them. I have no interest in the mentor program and all the hoops I'd have to jump through to participate in that, by the way. Thanks, but not for me! I just do this on my own for every new player I encounter.
Right off the bat I tell them about Lich, explain to them the pros and cons, and suggest that they install it anyway simply as a means of easier communication. While I don't have a problem with Lich myself, I know there are some valid complaints with regard to what Lich exposes players to. Specifically, with LNet not only do you get easy access to help from players like me, you also get to listen to whatever OOC nonsense I happen to be spewing for laughs at the time. There's no filter there! Sorry!
I know what some people will say, that it's as easy as picking up a crystal amulet and that the updated ESP system is worlds better than what we used to have. I agree completely! But it should be easier than that even.
My suggestion:
Remove the amulet requirement. Make ESP channels a built-in feature. Players are automatically tuned to their local thought network as well as a special global OOC channel for new players. Channels may be toggled at any time. Otherwise, it's the same system. You have local and global IC channels, you just activate them with built-in commands. No amulet necessary. And everyone will hear new player communication unless they specifically tune it out.
That way new players are automatically in contact with the entire game. We'll never miss out on the chance to help them out. Further, those players who don't use LNet won't be as isolated. It's rare, but I do have a few friends who don't use LNet. And since I don't use ESP, it's a pain for them to communicate with me. I'd use the system if it were more convenient! Call me crazy. But with LNet, why bother?
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD
DAID
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/18/2014 10:20 PM CST
Some people have a built-in amulet function, depending on what society they are in.
>Further, those players who don't use LNet won't be as isolated. It's rare, but I do have a few friends who don't use LNet. And since I don't use ESP, it's a pain for them to communicate with me. I'd use the system if it were more convenient! Call me crazy. But with LNet, why bother?
I decided to entirely untune LNet (LNet I already stopped, but Prime and also Merchant now, too) after being repeatedly called stupid and a moron when offering someone standard advice. Obviously I used ignore on the person in question, who tends to troll in general. But that's why not to bother. The moderation is largely a joke, and if it's not football, jokes about porn, or a flame war, it's repeatedly referring people to KP articles they could have just searched for.
Right now I think the ESP system is largely in the hands of players. It's more convenient than it's ever been! With the increased duration from amulets, it's hard to burn through them very fast. And now we have global channels. And yet despite these improvements, it's not common people seem to use it very much.
If I was a GM, I probably wouldn't bother doing any more work on the ESP system until I saw players using all the great new features more.
I think what I'm awaiting now is the way to change which "death message" channels one tunes, etc. This is literally all LNet has left for me, which is related to people dying in game and helping them.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
>Further, those players who don't use LNet won't be as isolated. It's rare, but I do have a few friends who don't use LNet. And since I don't use ESP, it's a pain for them to communicate with me. I'd use the system if it were more convenient! Call me crazy. But with LNet, why bother?
I decided to entirely untune LNet (LNet I already stopped, but Prime and also Merchant now, too) after being repeatedly called stupid and a moron when offering someone standard advice. Obviously I used ignore on the person in question, who tends to troll in general. But that's why not to bother. The moderation is largely a joke, and if it's not football, jokes about porn, or a flame war, it's repeatedly referring people to KP articles they could have just searched for.
Right now I think the ESP system is largely in the hands of players. It's more convenient than it's ever been! With the increased duration from amulets, it's hard to burn through them very fast. And now we have global channels. And yet despite these improvements, it's not common people seem to use it very much.
If I was a GM, I probably wouldn't bother doing any more work on the ESP system until I saw players using all the great new features more.
I think what I'm awaiting now is the way to change which "death message" channels one tunes, etc. This is literally all LNet has left for me, which is related to people dying in game and helping them.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/18/2014 10:29 PM CST
I agree with everything you've said except your conclusions.
It's hard to imagine players wouldn't use ESP if it worked the way I suggest. You can agree with that at least?
I'm not sure why your outlook seems to be that we don't use ESP because we don't appreciate the effort. Or that we should essentially be "punished" for this transgression by receiving no further work on the system. I prefer to look at it as making some tweaks that should result in widespread use and a more palatable alternative to LNet both for people who currently use LNet and are willing to put up with it, and for people like yourself who don't have the stomach for it.
Why shouldn't we agree on this? Honest question!
~Taverkin
It's hard to imagine players wouldn't use ESP if it worked the way I suggest. You can agree with that at least?
I'm not sure why your outlook seems to be that we don't use ESP because we don't appreciate the effort. Or that we should essentially be "punished" for this transgression by receiving no further work on the system. I prefer to look at it as making some tweaks that should result in widespread use and a more palatable alternative to LNet both for people who currently use LNet and are willing to put up with it, and for people like yourself who don't have the stomach for it.
Why shouldn't we agree on this? Honest question!
~Taverkin
VANKRASN39
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/18/2014 10:49 PM CST
not in connection with the previous posts, but I used the global/local amulet a lot during the Twilight Hall Anniversary Week. people were listening :)
RATHBONER
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/19/2014 06:01 AM CST
Creating the global channel has put Landing amunet use back above critical mass, but its still usually only me when I do ESP WHO LOCAL elsewhere. (75 others logged in 6 on global, 5 in Landing when I just checked now, and it might have been just me even in the Landing when it was this quiet in game before the last lot of changes)
DMWCINCY
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/19/2014 07:37 AM CST
I dont know why the amulet is an issue. So easy to find and with the latest editions one rub last a very long time. As for an OOC channel, remember this is consider a "family game". The ooc channel would be heavily censored (which would not bother me one bit) and after a few days those that want the raunchy talk will migrate back to lich. I simply do not see removing the amulet need as a way to get people back in and also do not see many rushing back for the OOC channel.
DAID
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/19/2014 07:59 AM CST
Taverkin wrote:
People probably don't use the ESP because of lacking critical mass and LNet being prolific. My wife uses Whispering Willow, but how many other people can you name that do, besides for some extra dispell protection, etc? It's nice to hear that the amulet is getting more use in WL, but I get as much or more use of the Local channel in RR as the Global channel, which is probably saying something.
Anyway, the amulet was widely popular once upon a time, and it was much worse than it is now.
I'm not sure why it was decided that Global should be defaulted to off. That was a kind of curious part about the release. I know I've been a huge fan of the default nature of the Service command turned on at login. "Make another feature and bury it from new players." "Make people less likely to appreciate or use the blood, sweat, and tears that went into the ESP overhaul."
As the very first thing I said, whether it matters or not, was that you are entirely negating a society-granted skill. Definitely a society that is very archaic in its designs, but way-back-when, this particular feature of the society was actually a nice benefit when the crystal amulet was so popular, and amulet duration much shorter. I forget if new players gen with an amulet (I thought that they do), so maybe it just needs an Alice in Wonderland style "rub me" note on it?
My main concern is that I'm not convinced your idea would make that much of a difference. In all the post-cap hunting issues I read about (over and over again), being too poor to acquire a crystal amulet certainly wasn't one of them. And if the neck-worn slot is too precious, I'm pretty sure merchants have ever sold crystal amulet holders. If that in particular was an issue it could get converted to a "non-functional" item.
Maybe I oppose it for nostalgia reasons. I agree it would be an "improvement" but I don't see that it has really any bearing on the actual problem. Get assigned 10 ogre tusks and all the rat pelts in the world won't complete the bounty.
I'm also not saying we should be "punished" or that we don't appreciate the effort. If some over-whelming majority of people start posting saying that the difference for them is literally not having a crystal amulet, well firstly I can give them some because I tend to pawn them, but anyway, at least I'd be convinced it was really relevant to the state of affairs.
Incidentally, we could go back to the old days where the pawnbroker wouldn't buy crystal amulets. I mean, your proposal or mine, they're going to be worthless, right?
I just think that, plain and simple, the problem right now is critical mass on the part of players, and almost no possible dev by GMs can do anything to rectify the situation. I admit, I'd like the Plat feature where the ESP works while dead in Prime. Being able to send (even limited) information while dead, too, might be okay. Though for my sake, I'd take hearing ESP while dead and an updated "bit the dust" system.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
| I agree with everything you've said except your conclusions. |
| It's hard to imagine players wouldn't use ESP if it worked the way I suggest. You can agree with that at least? |
| I'm not sure why your outlook seems to be that we don't use ESP because we don't appreciate the effort. Or that we should essentially be "punished" for this transgression by receiving no further work on the system. I prefer to look at it as making some tweaks that should result in widespread use and a more palatable alternative to LNet both for people who currently use LNet and are willing to put up with it, and for people like yourself who don't have the stomach for it. |
| Why shouldn't we agree on this? Honest question! |
People probably don't use the ESP because of lacking critical mass and LNet being prolific. My wife uses Whispering Willow, but how many other people can you name that do, besides for some extra dispell protection, etc? It's nice to hear that the amulet is getting more use in WL, but I get as much or more use of the Local channel in RR as the Global channel, which is probably saying something.
Anyway, the amulet was widely popular once upon a time, and it was much worse than it is now.
I'm not sure why it was decided that Global should be defaulted to off. That was a kind of curious part about the release. I know I've been a huge fan of the default nature of the Service command turned on at login. "Make another feature and bury it from new players." "Make people less likely to appreciate or use the blood, sweat, and tears that went into the ESP overhaul."
As the very first thing I said, whether it matters or not, was that you are entirely negating a society-granted skill. Definitely a society that is very archaic in its designs, but way-back-when, this particular feature of the society was actually a nice benefit when the crystal amulet was so popular, and amulet duration much shorter. I forget if new players gen with an amulet (I thought that they do), so maybe it just needs an Alice in Wonderland style "rub me" note on it?
My main concern is that I'm not convinced your idea would make that much of a difference. In all the post-cap hunting issues I read about (over and over again), being too poor to acquire a crystal amulet certainly wasn't one of them. And if the neck-worn slot is too precious, I'm pretty sure merchants have ever sold crystal amulet holders. If that in particular was an issue it could get converted to a "non-functional" item.
Maybe I oppose it for nostalgia reasons. I agree it would be an "improvement" but I don't see that it has really any bearing on the actual problem. Get assigned 10 ogre tusks and all the rat pelts in the world won't complete the bounty.
I'm also not saying we should be "punished" or that we don't appreciate the effort. If some over-whelming majority of people start posting saying that the difference for them is literally not having a crystal amulet, well firstly I can give them some because I tend to pawn them, but anyway, at least I'd be convinced it was really relevant to the state of affairs.
Incidentally, we could go back to the old days where the pawnbroker wouldn't buy crystal amulets. I mean, your proposal or mine, they're going to be worthless, right?
I just think that, plain and simple, the problem right now is critical mass on the part of players, and almost no possible dev by GMs can do anything to rectify the situation. I admit, I'd like the Plat feature where the ESP works while dead in Prime. Being able to send (even limited) information while dead, too, might be okay. Though for my sake, I'd take hearing ESP while dead and an updated "bit the dust" system.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
KRAKII
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/19/2014 09:10 AM CST
I think it would be alright to have the amulet default to on... AFTER the character gets their first couple of levels. Being deluged with all that noise and crud--remember that they may not be using one of the windowed Front Ends!--right from the start could be a real turn-off.
VANKRASN39
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/19/2014 09:41 AM CST
>right from the start could be a real turn-off.
except there's really not much chatter and zero selling
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/20/2014 11:55 AM CST
<I'm not sure why it was decided that Global should be defaulted to off. That was a kind of curious part about the release. I know I've been a huge fan of the default nature of the Service <command turned on at login. "Make another feature and bury it from new players." "Make people less likely to appreciate or use the blood, sweat, and tears that went into the ESP overhaul."
Now we're on the same page.
<As the very first thing I said, whether it matters or not, was that you are entirely negating a society-granted skill. Definitely a society that is very archaic in its designs, but way-back-<when, this particular feature of the society was actually a nice benefit when the crystal amulet was so popular, and amulet duration much shorter. I forget if new players gen with an amulet <(I thought that they do), so maybe it just needs an Alice in Wonderland style "rub me" note on it?
I don't see why this must necessarily be a barrier. That society is next in line for an overhaul anyway, and the symbol of thought is all but obsolete with ESP being as under-used as it is. I see no reason why we must make this a barrier to ESP improvements. And why shouldn't that society have its own channels? Personally, I envision a system where ESP/COL/Voln are all parts of the same system. Voln and COL have their respective IC channels, and there are global and local IC/OOC channels as well.
<My main concern is that I'm not convinced your idea would make that much of a difference. In all the post-cap hunting issues I read about (over and over again), being too poor to acquire a <crystal amulet certainly wasn't one of them. And if the neck-worn slot is too precious, I'm pretty sure merchants have ever sold crystal amulet holders. If that in particular was an issue it <could get converted to a "non-functional" item.
That's not the point. To cite a real world example: Is using your credit card to make online purchases difficult or time-consuming? Nope! Only takes a minute to punch it in! So what would you say is the point of google wallet? And why does Wikipedia get more donations when they give you a quick-click pay button as opposed to having to log in and punch in credit cards? It's not difficult. So why does it work when you make it as easy as one-click? Why does the service verb get more notice when you splash it at login? All you have to do is type SERVICE!
You get the idea. Crystal amulets aren't hard to find. They aren't hard to use. But because most of us (with the notable exception of new players!) have an easier, more convenient option that is automatically tuned, what you see is what you get: Most players aren't using the new ESP system. Now you could stick to your guns and say that we don't deserve improvements to ESP since we didn't appreciate the system we got. Or you could acknowledge the probable reasons players aren't using it and make some changes that would at the very least ensure new players are connected from the moment they log in and able to access the full range of players who might be able to help them - because our intro sure doesn't do it for them!
~Taverkin
Now we're on the same page.
<As the very first thing I said, whether it matters or not, was that you are entirely negating a society-granted skill. Definitely a society that is very archaic in its designs, but way-back-<when, this particular feature of the society was actually a nice benefit when the crystal amulet was so popular, and amulet duration much shorter. I forget if new players gen with an amulet <(I thought that they do), so maybe it just needs an Alice in Wonderland style "rub me" note on it?
I don't see why this must necessarily be a barrier. That society is next in line for an overhaul anyway, and the symbol of thought is all but obsolete with ESP being as under-used as it is. I see no reason why we must make this a barrier to ESP improvements. And why shouldn't that society have its own channels? Personally, I envision a system where ESP/COL/Voln are all parts of the same system. Voln and COL have their respective IC channels, and there are global and local IC/OOC channels as well.
<My main concern is that I'm not convinced your idea would make that much of a difference. In all the post-cap hunting issues I read about (over and over again), being too poor to acquire a <crystal amulet certainly wasn't one of them. And if the neck-worn slot is too precious, I'm pretty sure merchants have ever sold crystal amulet holders. If that in particular was an issue it <could get converted to a "non-functional" item.
That's not the point. To cite a real world example: Is using your credit card to make online purchases difficult or time-consuming? Nope! Only takes a minute to punch it in! So what would you say is the point of google wallet? And why does Wikipedia get more donations when they give you a quick-click pay button as opposed to having to log in and punch in credit cards? It's not difficult. So why does it work when you make it as easy as one-click? Why does the service verb get more notice when you splash it at login? All you have to do is type SERVICE!
You get the idea. Crystal amulets aren't hard to find. They aren't hard to use. But because most of us (with the notable exception of new players!) have an easier, more convenient option that is automatically tuned, what you see is what you get: Most players aren't using the new ESP system. Now you could stick to your guns and say that we don't deserve improvements to ESP since we didn't appreciate the system we got. Or you could acknowledge the probable reasons players aren't using it and make some changes that would at the very least ensure new players are connected from the moment they log in and able to access the full range of players who might be able to help them - because our intro sure doesn't do it for them!
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/20/2014 12:10 PM CST
<I think it would be alright to have the amulet default to on... AFTER the character gets their first couple of levels. Being deluged with all that noise and crud--remember that they may not <be using one of the windowed Front Ends!--right from the start could be a real turn-off.
Separate channels, Krakii. So you log in for your first time and you're connected to the local IC channel and the "newbie" channel, which is global and specifically for new players to communicate with experienced players. Then we would have global IC, global OOC, local OOC, Voln (restricted), COL (restricted), GOS (restricted), etc. Everything other than local IC, "newbie", and your society channel (once you join one!) default to OFF.
Further, if there is a way to do so, default the available front-ends to visibly window thoughts. I suggest a wide-screen format, with story window and thought window running the full top-to-bottom length, but I realize personal preference varies. And if you can, do something about that offensive highlighting and color scheme in the default stormfront layout! Yikes! Example layout: http://tinypic.com/r/mmdkdk/8
There's any number of ways you could do that, but if new players logged in to something like this without the obnoxious bright blue background text highlights and white text on black for maximum constrast, and maybe if they had a thought window that scrolls the full length of the screen top-to-bottom it might be a little easier to handle all that scroll? I mean, it works for me anyway.
~Taverkin
Separate channels, Krakii. So you log in for your first time and you're connected to the local IC channel and the "newbie" channel, which is global and specifically for new players to communicate with experienced players. Then we would have global IC, global OOC, local OOC, Voln (restricted), COL (restricted), GOS (restricted), etc. Everything other than local IC, "newbie", and your society channel (once you join one!) default to OFF.
Further, if there is a way to do so, default the available front-ends to visibly window thoughts. I suggest a wide-screen format, with story window and thought window running the full top-to-bottom length, but I realize personal preference varies. And if you can, do something about that offensive highlighting and color scheme in the default stormfront layout! Yikes! Example layout: http://tinypic.com/r/mmdkdk/8
There's any number of ways you could do that, but if new players logged in to something like this without the obnoxious bright blue background text highlights and white text on black for maximum constrast, and maybe if they had a thought window that scrolls the full length of the screen top-to-bottom it might be a little easier to handle all that scroll? I mean, it works for me anyway.
~Taverkin
DMWCINCY
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/20/2014 01:04 PM CST
Be interesti g to find out but i put my money down on the reason most people use lnet comes more from non restricted ooc chat and chat not monitor by GMs then anything else.
KRAKII
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/20/2014 01:20 PM CST
Done as separate channels like Taverkin describes, I'd be totally down with the change.
DAID
Re: ESP Suggestions
11/20/2014 01:27 PM CST
I don't think I said it in my initial post, so I definitely ought to say that I appreciate your interest and effort to offer constructive ideas to further the ESP system.
>That society is next in line for an overhaul anyway
This isn't really related (for what I said, and likewise the reply). I fear the overhaul, and that's all I'll say. This was still a useful skill, so the proposal further nerfs one of the few skills offered by a society that is already dearly lacking.
>Personally, I envision a system where ESP/COL/Voln are all parts of the same system.
I don't share this vision for various reasons, but it's not a fundamental I'd pick a bone with.
>And why does Wikipedia get more donations when they give you a quick-click pay button as opposed to having to log in and punch in credit cards?
My reply is likewise irrelevant. I'm really annoyed that I've literally written Wikipedia articles, and even if I'm logged in I get the same spam as someone who's browsing. Wiki would be nothing without contributions, and people who contribute a lot shouldn't get spammed when logged in to the same degree as arbitrary IPs. Sorry, this is really unrelated, but not an analogy I liked.
>You get the idea. Crystal amulets aren't hard to find. They aren't hard to use. But because most of us (with the notable exception of new players!) have an easier, more convenient option that is automatically tuned, what you see is what you get: Most players aren't using the new ESP system.
I still think new players spawn with crystal amulets. I mostly recall this because those amulets you can't pawn (I must have tried, tsk tsk on me). But as I said, my memory may be mistaken.
I do agree that in general people aren't using the ESP system. And there's probably something to be said for aspects of the ;lnet script that has acquired lots of players.
Maybe I've just been so horrified and finally scared off by the LNet channel that I'm really careful in how closely I want to follow that model -- attractive as it is by measure of its numbers. Or maybe I just don't see that the available methods for activating the in-game ESP is really what's keeping this system down.
I think probably my earlier posts are too pessimistic. There probably are some ideas to further improve the ESP system that could be implemented. Unfortunately, I don't believe the precise outline posted would do it. And the outline is pretty much hitting the bottom, as far as making the ESP like ;lich.
ESP or not, the feature of ;lnet I love most is when dead, or helping other people who are. That's an area of discussion I'm open to. But the rest I think we need to get some people using the ESP to justify further dev time considering other things in GS that might benefit more strongly from the same dev time.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
>That society is next in line for an overhaul anyway
This isn't really related (for what I said, and likewise the reply). I fear the overhaul, and that's all I'll say. This was still a useful skill, so the proposal further nerfs one of the few skills offered by a society that is already dearly lacking.
>Personally, I envision a system where ESP/COL/Voln are all parts of the same system.
I don't share this vision for various reasons, but it's not a fundamental I'd pick a bone with.
>And why does Wikipedia get more donations when they give you a quick-click pay button as opposed to having to log in and punch in credit cards?
My reply is likewise irrelevant. I'm really annoyed that I've literally written Wikipedia articles, and even if I'm logged in I get the same spam as someone who's browsing. Wiki would be nothing without contributions, and people who contribute a lot shouldn't get spammed when logged in to the same degree as arbitrary IPs. Sorry, this is really unrelated, but not an analogy I liked.
>You get the idea. Crystal amulets aren't hard to find. They aren't hard to use. But because most of us (with the notable exception of new players!) have an easier, more convenient option that is automatically tuned, what you see is what you get: Most players aren't using the new ESP system.
I still think new players spawn with crystal amulets. I mostly recall this because those amulets you can't pawn (I must have tried, tsk tsk on me). But as I said, my memory may be mistaken.
I do agree that in general people aren't using the ESP system. And there's probably something to be said for aspects of the ;lnet script that has acquired lots of players.
Maybe I've just been so horrified and finally scared off by the LNet channel that I'm really careful in how closely I want to follow that model -- attractive as it is by measure of its numbers. Or maybe I just don't see that the available methods for activating the in-game ESP is really what's keeping this system down.
I think probably my earlier posts are too pessimistic. There probably are some ideas to further improve the ESP system that could be implemented. Unfortunately, I don't believe the precise outline posted would do it. And the outline is pretty much hitting the bottom, as far as making the ESP like ;lich.
ESP or not, the feature of ;lnet I love most is when dead, or helping other people who are. That's an area of discussion I'm open to. But the rest I think we need to get some people using the ESP to justify further dev time considering other things in GS that might benefit more strongly from the same dev time.
>An officer of the Sorcerer Guild arrives and glances around. "Ah, there you are, Vathon!" he says in a slightly agitated tone. "I have come to formally declare that your membership privileges have been revoked."
