Ever since the elemental review, I have been lagging behind reading the various wizard/elemental spells forums .... to the tune of literally over a thousand posts. I just caught up to this folder today.
I realize that I am coming in a bit late to the discussion, but I have had good success using 415 as a CS based attack spell. There's a decent fatal crit %, and my base CS with it (no enhancives) is 510, which, by total coincidence is the exact same CS my capped cleric has. My Empath gets a fair number of one shot kills with boneshatter, and Cleric does well with 317. I don't have any statistics on which spell crits more often, alas, so it's difficult to compare them.
Now, you could argue that spirit casters have access to spirit slayer, which sort of doubles the chances of a one shot kill. On the other hand, I can chain casts of 415 together with Core Tap, which raises my CS to 525 and lets me hit up to 7 targets. Mana expensive, yes, but quite nasty.
Also you have neglected to include sorcerers in the spell comparisons; they have both bolt spells and CS based attacks. I don't have a capped sorcerer, alas, so cannot comment on ho effective they are vs the other pure casters. I do have a sorcerer of mid level, however. Oddly enough, her best room clearer is neither bolt nor CS based. Major E-wave followed by an open cast of Void works wonders. Major e-wave has a high % of stuns, and anything stunned gets sucked into the void automatically.
THROGG
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: CS spells
11/19/2017 04:06 PM CST
>There's a decent fatal crit %, and my base CS with it (no enhancives) is 510, which, by total coincidence is the exact same CS my capped cleric has.
The cleric's end rolls will still be higher, as spirit TD is almost always noticeably lower than elemental TD on most if not all creatures.
415 also has a random element to its damage, for some odd reason, and also depending on your attunement and what you're hunting, can be useless if not self destructive, i.e. a fire mage in the bowels. Even while unattuned you still have a 25% to die just from casting the spell if it decides to use fire in that situation, lightning in Nelemar, etc. 502 suffers from this plague as well, when both spells should work like 518 does in regards to how you choose which element to use. Dev seemed to have zero interest in addressing this problem when it was brought up for 502.
415 isn't necessarily a bad spell, it's just in a sphere that requires far too much spell rank sacrifice from our other more important spheres to justify training for, especially after the double cast "bug" got nerfed...which they should have just let stay like they did with some other recent bug that they decided to keep (wasn't wizard related, I can't remember at all what spell it was but it doesn't matter). Before the nerf it was debatable. I switched to it for a while and it performed well, but still wasn't worth the wizard and MjE sacrifice. After the nerf, Immolate still performs better despite that spell also having been nerfed into oblivion, and without having to sacrifice important MjE ranks.
If 415 were in either of our other spheres, it would be worth using regularly. Just not in MnE, imo. :(
~ Methais
The cleric's end rolls will still be higher, as spirit TD is almost always noticeably lower than elemental TD on most if not all creatures.
415 also has a random element to its damage, for some odd reason, and also depending on your attunement and what you're hunting, can be useless if not self destructive, i.e. a fire mage in the bowels. Even while unattuned you still have a 25% to die just from casting the spell if it decides to use fire in that situation, lightning in Nelemar, etc. 502 suffers from this plague as well, when both spells should work like 518 does in regards to how you choose which element to use. Dev seemed to have zero interest in addressing this problem when it was brought up for 502.
415 isn't necessarily a bad spell, it's just in a sphere that requires far too much spell rank sacrifice from our other more important spheres to justify training for, especially after the double cast "bug" got nerfed...which they should have just let stay like they did with some other recent bug that they decided to keep (wasn't wizard related, I can't remember at all what spell it was but it doesn't matter). Before the nerf it was debatable. I switched to it for a while and it performed well, but still wasn't worth the wizard and MjE sacrifice. After the nerf, Immolate still performs better despite that spell also having been nerfed into oblivion, and without having to sacrifice important MjE ranks.
If 415 were in either of our other spheres, it would be worth using regularly. Just not in MnE, imo. :(
~ Methais
THROGG
Re: CS spells
03/16/2018 08:53 AM CDT
Coming back late to this topic, but I only just now saw Methias' reply.
>"415 also has a random element to its damage, for some odd reason, and also depending on your attunement and what you're hunting, can be useless if not self destructive, i.e. a fire mage in the bowels"<
Yes, but I had hunted in the bowels and Nelemar before, with older characters, and was aware of the environmental problems. I specifically attuned to earth to avoid any
such thing. I also am a bit of a mutant warmage, and picked up earth lore for the benefit to 509. While elemental TD may be higher than spiritual, 415 is,
IMO, the best CS based damage spell I have. I put more ranks into MnE than Wizard or MjE, just to get that nice high CS.
>"415 also has a random element to its damage, for some odd reason, and also depending on your attunement and what you're hunting, can be useless if not self destructive, i.e. a fire mage in the bowels"<
Yes, but I had hunted in the bowels and Nelemar before, with older characters, and was aware of the environmental problems. I specifically attuned to earth to avoid any
such thing. I also am a bit of a mutant warmage, and picked up earth lore for the benefit to 509. While elemental TD may be higher than spiritual, 415 is,
IMO, the best CS based damage spell I have. I put more ranks into MnE than Wizard or MjE, just to get that nice high CS.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: CS spells
03/16/2018 09:59 AM CDT
My only real problem is with spells like 415 and 502, we should be able to choose what elements we want to use, as opposed to only being able to choose between your attuned element and a random element.
518 works that way and is based on lore instead of attunement, I see no reason why 502 and 415 shouldn't also work this way, since wizards are supposed to be "Masters of the Elements" and all that. In practice, we're master of one element and have to roll the dice on the other elements. Which is pretty weak.
Attunement shouldn't be tied to anything mechanical like that. It should be more of a RP tool than a combat one. Simu seems to disagree though, unfortunately.
~ Methais
518 works that way and is based on lore instead of attunement, I see no reason why 502 and 415 shouldn't also work this way, since wizards are supposed to be "Masters of the Elements" and all that. In practice, we're master of one element and have to roll the dice on the other elements. Which is pretty weak.
Attunement shouldn't be tied to anything mechanical like that. It should be more of a RP tool than a combat one. Simu seems to disagree though, unfortunately.
~ Methais
LORDEVARIN
Re: CS spells
03/16/2018 11:08 AM CDT
I agree that attunement should be based off your training in lores in addition to a static choice. It'd be nice if at X ranks of a particular elemental lore, let's say 50, you can choose to attune to that element in addition to your natural attunement. It'd be a nice perk for dedicated training, the same as with Survival, Mana Control, Physical Fitness, etc.
I like the number 50 as it makes it possible for a Wizard to be able to attune to all elements if he or she really wanted.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
I like the number 50 as it makes it possible for a Wizard to be able to attune to all elements if he or she really wanted.
!>tell child to be quiet
The child cries, "I don't wanna!"
BRANDTJRT
Re: CS spells
03/20/2018 05:53 AM CDT
>>Attunement shouldn't be tied to anything mechanical like that. It should be more of a RP tool than a combat one. Simu seems to disagree though, unfortunately.
I think the situation with 518 works pretty nicely. You get your attunement as a bonus option, and then you can choose the others based on skill. 502/415/411 should definitely work the same though, as you said. Alternately, 520 works well with elemental choice as an approach for the multi-element spells.
_ _ _
Myasara says, "Raining rocks down on my city was not the best course of action."
I think the situation with 518 works pretty nicely. You get your attunement as a bonus option, and then you can choose the others based on skill. 502/415/411 should definitely work the same though, as you said. Alternately, 520 works well with elemental choice as an approach for the multi-element spells.
_ _ _
Myasara says, "Raining rocks down on my city was not the best course of action."
