>Communication is generally regarded as being 4 parts.

no, really, I'm doing about 3 other things at this exact moment and hand holding is not one of them. Consider it my human failing.

I have a lot of catching up to do here in this topic - I'll post more later this evening and tomorrow.

However, to address something in a timely fashion and just to be absolutely clear - Disagreement with an idea does not mean the idea is bad or worthless. So to anyone with any ideas at all, put them out there. I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one reading ideas. The only bad idea in my view is the idea that isn't explored.

Doug

>>The stone fist would summon a 510 boulder, then it would punch the boulder, making it explode into a bunch of shards to either hit multiple targets, or cause multiple hits on a single target.

I like this! Stone Fist needs a lot in general for sure. The concept is awesome, but then it doesn't quite work, much like the old Stoneskin.

>>X (20?) ranks of water lore should just unlock this skill imo, especially if shatter requirements aren't going to be loosened up. Does anyone even use Shatter on a regular basis? I'm curious how many shatters have actually taken place since it's been live. I would guess it's pretty low.

That makes 120% sense to me. Evoke 907 for Minor Cold with appropriate lore. As for shattering with Cold Snap, there is one person I have heard of, which makes it sound more useful than Sandstorm, but that's another topic still.

What if that were remade into a mass warding spell, which I am tentatively referring to as Chromatic Sphere to theme with 502, that would do composite elemental damage. For instance, Sandstorm would be an option of it, but also something with Steam and Acid, etc. Though that might work better stronger in something like 935 that would be comparable with other mass 30s spells. Random thoughts a bit unrelated here.

I always thought it'd be neat if Wizards had an Earth/Vibration type bolt spell, also.

_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.

>The--completely separate!--suggestion to have "elemental bolt", always costing exactly the same mana (as compared to "elemental ball", "elemental grasp", "elemental surround" [immolation], and so on [EACH of which, it should be noted, would be "the mana cost of the 'ball' spell" or "the mana cost of the 'grasp' spell"]), would be--a completely separate idea!--where you select the element which are casting at the time of that casting.

I don't expect to ever see this without requiring lores to unlock each element. It goes against all existing design precedent.

>What is "arcane" anyway?

It's a pretty abstract term. Mana is raw magical energy, though some kinds of magic can be performed without mana. 702 (mana disruption) is all about learning to manipulate and channel mana into a deadly force. The sorcerer/channeler aspect existed long before sorcerers started being played as necromancers -- predating the game, as I understand it. Several of the older sorcerer spells deal with raw mana or the effects of manipulating it to alter the physical realm around the opponent, without using traditional elements. Spells like 708, 711, and 720 which are now "necromancy" mainstays fall into this category. However, in many games, a necromancer has only token offensive magic and relies on animation and summoning spells, while a wizard specializes in assault spells. Sorcerers are kind of a hybrid concept, I guess. That said, there's no reason I can think of that a wizard couldn't channel all 4 elements into a bolt of power. Unless it's for game balance reasons.

>Personal opinion - whether the ideas are properly couched in a deep understanding of today's mechanics or not, I choose not to ignore the ideas for a very simple reason - that idea expression might lead me to another idea, or have something in it that I fundamentally do like that simply needs a tweak. I'm often asked why I engage with / flat out do not just ignore posters for any number of reasons. Hippo's name is on that list when I post some follow-up thought / question. But the answer in every case, every time is, uniformly, that point. There is no amount of inaccuracy, nor any amount of other 'problem' associated with an idea that I'm not willing to at least read / consider the concept. YMMV. Hell, even mine does. And we each value different things in our efforts to share here.

I'm glad you have that time to spend.

>And to which I usually will respond with 'Change happens. Would you like to be involved?' (Not a directed comment, a purely philosophical observation and nothing more - intended to provide insight into why I do what I do.)

Absolutely, I'm involved by articulating when it's proposed exactly what change I would not want to happen. I would not want to see wizards be boxed into only bolting as an option because Dev says we've given you so much pre-cap bolting power, you have no magical ability left to manipulate the elements in other ways. No amount of discussing it is going to make me agree that rewriting the entire bolting system is good for the profession or the game. Frankly, I'm here for more fun, not more tearing down just to get back to square zero when certain things work perfectly fine in balance with other profession abilities at a pre-cap level. And again, there's no demonstrated evidence of a problem or that pre-cap wizards don't currently find bolting enjoyable. They obviously find it enjoyable enough to level, or there wouldn't be so many.

<<What would make channeling a bolt worth it?

I'm coming in a bit late to the discussion, but I also have a few ideas I'd like to share that I believe would improve the state of wizardry and channeling bolts. I split my thoughts up into general improvements and bolt improvements.

Here are 10 ideas I think would improve the wizard class in general:

Attunement bonuses – I think this should provide a slight mechanical advantage to wizard attuned to an element. For example, a wizard attuned to earth would be able to channel all earth spells with soft RT only, and perhaps see a +1 mana refund on all earth spells. In addition, a creature cannot have more than a 1% chance to EBP an elemental spell from an attuned caster.

Rapid Fire Improvement – Increased training would allow to Rapid Fire to reduce channel RT by an additional 1-2 seconds. Provide a cooldown for the ability if necessary. Also, maybe bring back the old rapid fire on a limited basis allowing it to be used once per hunt/per hour/per day with 0 RT, whatever is deemed balanced.

Celerity Improvement – Remove the cooldown timer when cast on others for actions like searching, foraging, disarming/picking, etc. Basically just keep the cooldown in place to limit unlimited 1 second swings for others, as I think this is the main intent in the first place for changing the spell? Also, it would be nice to reduce cooldown on others with some kind of training.

Revised lore tresholds – Much like Drumpel said in a previous post, I feel there is too little of a reward for training past 1x in any specific lore. Going beyond 1x and up to 2x in a lore requires true dedication and sacrifice and currently has lackluster returns for many spells. I think a different formula other than summation should be used or new benefits should be unlocked from training a single lore from 1x to 2x.

Assign more Elemental Weaknesses – Assign most creatures in the game an elemental weakness to encourage variety and tactical use of elemental bolts. For example, if the creature is weak to water, add a multiplier to DF’s for minor water so that it hits that creature with similar power to 910 or 510. Alternatively, you could add negative resistances, provide a mana refund, or raise the minimum crit (much like how tiering up in UAC works) if using the correct spell.

Wizard Familiar*/*Bolt Improvement – Having your wizard familiar follow you around would provide additional bonuses to channeled bolts, kind of like how demons work for 713.

Lore Philosophy – I’m not a fan of fire = attack lore, water = utility, etc. I think if someone wants to RP a water wizard, they should have the option to be just as powerful as a fire wizard. Likewise, a fire wizard should have the option of being an offensive powerhouse, or a fire utility type of wizard. Myself, as a dwarf wizard, I’d love to invest heavily into Earth lore to fit the image of my character. However, because of my preferred play style and the way lores are set up -- I have 0 earth lore and a lot of fire lore. I think class defining spells like 917 and 519 should have an equally powerful option for each element. The same goes for class defining utility and defense spells like enchant. Mage armor is a perfect example of how all class defining spells should be designed, IMO.

Hunting style and spell design – I feel like a wizard’s strength currently lies in controlling swarms and fighting multiple enemies at once, whereas other pures may be more efficient in 1v1 fights. If this is the design intent, I am fine with that but I’d like to see many of our bolt spells provide a player safe AOE effect. I think a wizard’s cast to kill ratio should always outpace other pures when facing 3+ enemies at once. If it takes a sorcerer 5-6 casts to kill 5 enemies in a single room, perhaps it should take a wizard only 2/3 casts with AoE. Although I think this is kind of how wizards are designed already, I'd still like to see the wizard class be further improved with AoE capabilities, if our single target efficiency is to remain as is.

Level/Spell progression - Training from about 50-100 is a bit stale. Perhaps more stale than post cap training. I think if we could unlock new abilities for spells with continued spell training (ranks 55, 60, 65, etc), it would give players real incentives to look forward to instead of boring stuff like a few points to AS/DS/CS/TD.

Spell Focus – Each channeled bolt spell could provide some kind of benefit to make it useful all the time and give a reason to use it over other bolt spells. Some examples are: AoE, control, various categories of buff and debuff, high HP damage, etc.

Spell Channeling – In addition to its current benefits, unlock new abilities for spells that can be used if you channel. These abilities could be unlocked will spell training above and beyond level 50, as the increased power is probably not needed before then and to also keep these special wizard abilities from be using with magic items such as wands.




Now then, for some ideas to improve channeled bolts…

In short, I think channeled bolts should provide extra benefits in very short term buffs or de-buffs, have an AoE effect. In addition, if attuned to the element of the bolt your casting let it be cast with 0 channel RT and only 1% EBP chance. Below are some ideas.

903 channeled – add a ball effect that soaks 3+ enemies in the room. Now spells like 901 and 910 will jump between all wet targets with an AS/DS resolution and lightning flaring damage. This could work like a specialized empathetic link type spell, but only for lightning spells on soaked targets. This water spell should be modified to hit as hard as 910 or 510 on enemies designated weak to water.
Focus – damage, mass AoE setup for lightning spells. Best damage bolt to enemies weak to water.

904 channeled – corrodes a targets defenses to make them weak to follow up attacks. Example: -50 DS/UDF, -25 TD, -EBP, and lower armor group by up to 1.
Focus – damage, very strong single target de-buffs, group support, Best or 2nd damage bolt against enemies weak to acid (possible behind Major Acid).

505 channeled – Target can be sent tumbling into other targets, causing a knockdown on 2-3 other enemies. With enough training, main target can be sent flying into next room with 100% success if desired. Changed to Air bolt against flying creatures, and will always knock them out of the sky into melee range.
Focus – direct damage, best Ant-Aerial, 2-3 target Knockdown, best damage vs enemies weak to air

907 channeled – good chance for main target to become frozen solid and immobilized/bound (100% if wet). Other targets hit by the ball will have a 5-10 second slow effect added.
Focus – damage, single target disabler, AoE slow, best damage vs targets weak to cold.

908 channeled – good chance for main target to be set on fire (100% in de-buffed in acid). Other targets hit by the ball are forced into a more offensive stance and may lose any prepared spells.
Focus – damage, single target disabler, forces stance, AoE control vs casters, strongest or second strongest bolt vs enemies weak to fire.

910 channeled – 75% chance to hit 2 enemies, 50% for 3 enemies. Enemies wet from other spells do not count against this limit and would be freely hit. Also, this would create a link with the target so that if it moves, you can ride the lightning back to the enemy to deliver a devastating lightning critical and trigger a 1 shot tremor while also gaining a short term wisdom, aura, or spell aiming buff. For things like Ithzir, you would have to wait for them to fade back into view somewhere (works like 225 but on enemies). For fun, you could zap them, blow them into another room with Tonis bolt (or just move away yourself, and finish them by riding the lightning back to them.
Focus – damage, AoE damage, teleport to enemy, self-buff, strongest spell vs creatures weak to lightning, teleport to enemy.

510 channeled – 100% chance to root enemy, preventing it from moving or performing any physical maneuver attack for 1-2 rounds, also imparts minor RT to the enemy and may cause him to stagger into other creatures, providing a chance to add an extra 1-2 seconds of round time to them as well. In addition to its normal damage, does very high HP damage (concussion damage) depending on the end roll.
Focus – damage, Heavy HP damage to drain high HP targets, minor AoE rt lock, single target maneuver disabler.

Those are just a few examples on how I think bolts can be improved for channeling. I know some of the abilities are very strong, however, I envision that unlocking all the abilities would be done from spell training 50 onwards, to add excitement to leveling 50+ and for post cap training. Most of the abilities probably wouldn’t be needed before than anyways, as simply casting would be good enough.

Thanks, Kazoki. There's some interesting ideas in there! I see a lot of them interwoven together in interaction.

I also see conceptually how you're working channeling down / out of the picture. Thanks for these, I'll put them forward in the summary placed against the appropriate areas.

Drumpel - you know, I didn't see a single mention of a phantom lore rank in the proposal for ATTUNE. Admittedly, we've been told phantom lore ranks probably won't happen (you really can't say 'never' around here), but - what about the ideas. I'll admit they might be too much, but because we're brainstorming we don't have to worry about limiting. And I think there's a couple good ideas in there.

Doug

@Kazoki

I like the idea of being able to channel the element you're attuned with incurring soft rt only. I'm still hoping attunement provides a bit more mechanical perk sometime in the future.

I'm also a fan of any additions to bolts that would provide incentive to utilize some strategy during combat and your ideas seem like they would be fun.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4

>Attunement bonuses – I think this should provide a slight mechanical advantage to wizard attuned to an element. For example, a wizard attuned to earth would be able to channel all earth spells with soft RT only, and perhaps see a +1 mana refund on all earth spells. In addition, a creature cannot have more than a 1% chance to EBP an elemental spell from an attuned caster.

I disagree with tying attunement further to mechanics vs. flavor, as these sorts of "bonuses" in particular would be expected to be in use in some form by Dev and for all the reasons recently articulated in the ATTUNEMENT thread. There would be little incentive to be anything but an earth lore wizard in this particular case.

>Rapid Fire Improvement – Increased training would allow to Rapid Fire to reduce channel RT by an additional 1-2 seconds. Provide a cooldown for the ability if necessary. Also, maybe bring back the old rapid fire on a limited basis allowing it to be used once per hunt/per hour/per day with 0 RT, whatever is deemed balanced.

I disagree with any more cooldowns. We've been told that old rapid fire is permanently off the table. I'm not actually seeking any changes to Rapid Fire as a level 15 spell that already has had much of its power ceiling shifted to the pre-cap.

>Celerity Improvement – Remove the cooldown timer when cast on others for actions like searching, foraging, disarming/picking, etc. Basically just keep the cooldown in place to limit unlimited 1 second swings for others, as I think this is the main intent in the first place for changing the spell? Also, it would be nice to reduce cooldown on others with some kind of training.

I disagree with reducing the cooldown on others offensively, as that was an intentional change meant to address the dependence on 506. Instead, every character now has access to old Haste-like abilities via quickstrike.

I do agree with removing cooldown on others for non-combat actions, such as searching, foraging, etc. That is simply about reducing tedium, which I support.

>Assign more Elemental Weaknesses – Assign most creatures in the game an elemental weakness to encourage variety and tactical use of elemental bolts. For example, if the creature is weak to water, add a multiplier to DF’s for minor water so that it hits that creature with similar power to 910 or 510. Alternatively, you could add negative resistances, provide a mana refund, or raise the minimum crit (much like how tiering up in UAC works) if using the correct spell.

This is a roundabout way of addressing the real problem, and one I think is unlikely to happen as creature weaknesses affect spells from every profession. I don't expect or want Dev to rebalance every creature in the game.

>Wizard Familiar*/*Bolt Improvement – Having your wizard familiar follow you around would provide additional bonuses to channeled bolts, kind of like how demons work for 713.

I do agree with familiars providing mechanical benefits beyond what we currently enjoy, but I disagree with anything that requires the use of CHANNELed bolts. I've long said that wizard familiars were the original profession-based pet, and since then have been surpassed by superior versions granted to every other profession that provide mechanical benefits.

>Hunting style and spell design – I feel like a wizard’s strength currently lies in controlling swarms and fighting multiple enemies at once, whereas other pures may be more efficient in 1v1 fights. If this is the design intent, I am fine with that but I’d like to see many of our bolt spells provide a player safe AOE effect. I think a wizard’s cast to kill ratio should always outpace other pures when facing 3+ enemies at once. If it takes a sorcerer 5-6 casts to kill 5 enemies in a single room, perhaps it should take a wizard only 2/3 casts with AoE. Although I think this is kind of how wizards are designed already, I'd still like to see the wizard class be further improved with AoE capabilities, if our single target efficiency is to remain as is.

I have no interest in further AoE capabilities, as a wizard is more than proficient in them already. AoE hunting isn't what most players do on a daily basis, and I disagree with the concept of rewarding blind rushing into dangerous situations. I seek parity in single target hunting because that is what most people do on a daily basis. Wizards have the weakest mass disablers in the game, and our only recourse to "control swarms" is to ensure they instantly die. In contrast, the other pures all have reliable, CS-based disablers and offensive spells to ensure immobilization or death at second 0.

>Level/Spell progression - Training from about 50-100 is a bit stale. Perhaps more stale than post cap training. I think if we could unlock new abilities for spells with continued spell training (ranks 55, 60, 65, etc), it would give players real incentives to look forward to instead of boring stuff like a few points to AS/DS/CS/TD.

This is the case for every profession, pure and otherwise, and I don't expect any more of the power ceiling to continue to shift to the pre-cap, when pre-cap bolting is already significantly superior to pre-cap warding spells.

>Spell Focus – Each channeled bolt spell could provide some kind of benefit to make it useful all the time and give a reason to use it over other bolt spells. Some examples are: AoE, control, various categories of buff and debuff, high HP damage, etc.

>Spell Channeling – In addition to its current benefits, unlock new abilities for spells that can be used if you channel. These abilities could be unlocked will spell training above and beyond level 50, as the increased power is probably not needed before then and to also keep these special wizard abilities from be using with magic items such as wands.

I agree with Drumpel that I don't want to see CHANNEL required for any further benefits than the minimal ones they provide, as expected for any other pure profession.

<< I disagree with tying attunement further to mechanics vs. flavor, as these sorts of "bonuses" in particular would be expected to be in use in some form by Dev and for all the reasons recently articulated in the ATTUNEMENT thread. There would be little incentive to be anything but an earth lore wizard in this particular case.

The earth lore wizard gaining the ability to channel with no hard rt was just a specific example. A fire, water, and air mage would share similar benefits while using their attuned spells. I’m not sure what was articulated in the Attunement thread. I reactivated my account fairly recently and have not read a lot of the older threads.

<<I disagree with any more cooldowns. We've been told that old rapid fire is permanently off the table. I'm not actually seeking any changes to Rapid Fire as a level 15 spell that already has had much of its power ceiling shifted to the pre-cap.

You know, I strongly oppose cool downs as well. I’d prefer to steer away from them, but I do feel like some abilities need them, like miracle for example. I do think all spells should have baseline ability that can be used at any time, however. If channeling gets removed, I’d be all for that. If not, rapid fire could be a candidate to reduce or remove channeled RT to make it more attractive post-cap.

<<I disagree with reducing the cooldown on others offensively, as that was an intentional change meant to address the dependence on 506. Instead, every character now has access to old Haste-like abilities via quickstrike.
Honestly, I can do without further improving the combat rt of others as well. I just can’t help to notice casters get the benefit of a constant 515 whereas are square buddies have to wait 4 minutes. A properly trained bard can sustain haste on allies better than a wizard now.

<<I do agree with removing cooldown on others for non-combat actions, such as searching, foraging, etc. That is simply about reducing tedium, which I support.

Agreed. I would be happy even with just that improvement.

<<This is a roundabout way of addressing the real problem, and one I think is unlikely to happen as creature weaknesses affect spells from every profession. I don't expect or want Dev to rebalance every creature in the game.

If another profession can benefit from exploiting an enemy’s elemental weakness, then so be it. Wizards will still be the best and most versatile at it. I’m not sure how much work it would take a dev to set up weaknesses like this, but I think it would be worthy of a GM’s time. It would be similar to mechanics in many other RPG’s where creatures have weaknesses that are often most exploitable by the elementalist types. I think this would be a direct way address the issue of the usefulness of various elemental spells.

<<I have no interest in further AoE capabilities, as a wizard is more than proficient in them already. AoE hunting isn't what most players do on a daily basis, and I disagree with the concept of rewarding blind rushing into dangerous situations. I seek parity in single target hunting because that is what most people do on a daily basis. Wizards have the weakest mass disablers in the game, and our only recourse to "control swarms" is to ensure they instantly die. In contrast, the other pures all have reliable, CS-based disablers and offensive spells to ensure immobilization or death at second 0.

The problem I think with many of our mass disablers is that they cost too much mana for their effectiveness. I very rarely use any of the disablers outside of 410, 912, or 909. Things like slow, cold snap, and stone fist are ineffective because by the time you use them, you could have probably had the creature dead using a different, more efficient sequence of spells. This is partly why I feel like all our bolts should apply extra AoE damage or status effects, as most of our disablers seems to be designed more for flavor rather than effectiveness. This would provide wizards with increased group hunting value as well.

I’m not sure why you would be against improve AoE disablers since you perceive wizards to have the weakest disablers. And while you may like to methodically pick your fights, nothing gets me more excited than fighting swarms of enemies. There should be options to please us both.

>> This is the case for every profession, pure and otherwise, and I don't expect any more of the power ceiling to continue to shift to the pre-cap, when pre-cap bolting is already significantly superior to pre-cap warding spells.

This is the second time you mentioned a power ceiling pre-cap. Excuse my ignorance, but what is there some kind of point system the GM's use to assign scores to the effectiveness of spells or something that must be checked and balanced between all professions? What exactly is this ceiling?

Even so, something needs to be done to make leveling 50-100 more exciting just as post cap development needs improvement. I cannot count the times I took extended breaks from Gemstone, placing my accounts on hold, while leveling a character in that range. It gets boring, and fast. And yes, this is design goal that should be implemented with all professions in mind.

<< I agree with Drumpel that I don't want to see CHANNEL required for any further benefits than the minimal ones they provide, as expected for any other pure profession.

I'm just afraid the unchecked power may be on the weaker side...but hey, if you can convince the devs to make improvements without the use of channeling, I’m all for that too. I specifically tailored my ideas around channeling simply because the dev asked for ideas to improve to channeling.

Thanks you for thoughts, Lady Fleur.

<<Both the warding system and bolting system have strengths and weaknesses that are currently relatively balanced in pre-cap hunting. The ceiling on achievable power once a pure is well post-cap, meaning fully maximized in all magical skills, shows a glaring disparity between what a post-cap pure wizard can achieve with bolting and what a post-cap spiritual pure can achieve with warding spells.

I see. I take it you feel this way because a wizard’s AS is mostly maxed by cap, whereas most other pure casters are likely to still be pursuing 3x spell training? Is it such a bad thing that wizards are able to achieve mostly full combat power faster and are able to start working on other secondary skills instead? What else am I missed here?

Honestly, I’ve haven’t perceived myself or other wizards to be significantly gimped in power when compared to any other pure class, and I use mostly bolt spells with no enhancives. I see some disparity, sure, just not a glaring disparity. A wizard may be slightly behind the curve in kill speed against single targets, but what about all the other benefits wizards have that other pure casters don't? IMO, wizard enjoy the best swarm management options, some of the best defensive and utility spells, and have the best control against RT locking, and yet are able to kill single targets effectively.

Let’s pretend for a moment wizards gets a 1 cast/1 kill soft RT spell. Now is it time for clerics, empaths, and sorcerers to start complaining that they need a rapid fire spell because all of a sudden they can only kill 2 creatures in 3 seconds, whereas wizard with rapid fire and their new 1 hit spell can now kill 4 creatures in 3 seconds, and still be the masters of controlling swarms and managing RT? I think every classes needs to shine somewhere and retain unique advantages. There is a point where it starts to get out of control and then everyone needs to be nerfed or all creatures need to be buffed. With that said, I do agree that wizards could use a bump in 1v1 situations, have adjustments made to bolt EBP, and have a few other things improved upon.

<<If everything that was achievable post-cap was shifted earlier to pre-cap, it would significantly shorten the game's lifespan as people would quit once their character had no more goals or improvements available at a post-cap level vs. what they could do pre-cap

Everything that is currently achievable post-cap would still remain only achievable post cap. Yet, new subsets of abilities can still be added to make 50-100 and further post cap training more rewarding. The time investment from 50-100 already takes long than it does going from 0 to cap in many other games. An effort should be made to keep a players interest at all levels of power.

>I take it you feel this way because a wizard’s AS is mostly maxed by cap, whereas most other pure casters are likely to still be pursuing 3x spell training?

No, this isn't it. I am not going to repeat the entire explanation here as it's literally been explained 1000 times by now.

>Honestly, I’ve haven’t perceived myself or other wizards to be significantly gimped in power when compared to any other pure class, and I use mostly bolt spells with no enhancives. I see some disparity, sure, just not a glaring disparity. A wizard may be slightly behind the curve in kill speed against single targets, but what about all the other benefits wizards have that other pure casters don't? IMO, wizard enjoy the best swarm management options, some of the best defensive and utility spells, and have the best control against RT locking, and yet are able to kill single targets effectively.

There's a glaring disparity if you've ever played a post-cap spiritual pure and a post-cap wizard. Wizards have the weakest swarm "management" of the pures. The only way they can "manage" swarms is to outright kill everything. Post-cap wizards are not able to kill single targets nearly as effectively as any of the other pures, or any other post-cap profession for that matter, as detailed numerous times.

>Let’s pretend for a moment wizards gets a 1 cast/1 kill soft RT spell. Now is it time for clerics, empaths, and sorcerers to start complaining that they need a rapid fire spell because all of a sudden they can only kill 2 creatures in 3 seconds, whereas wizard with rapid fire and their new 1 hit spell can now kill 4 creatures in 3 seconds, and still be the masters of controlling swarms and managing RT?

Rapid fire can be other cast, and it's far more effective on spiritual pures with cheaper and reliable warding spells who can afford to pay it on cooldown. I expect every post-cap pure profession to enjoy parity in single target killing because this is a key quality of life factor in the daily hunting that most people do.

>Everything that is currently achievable post-cap would still remain only achievable post cap. Yet, new subsets of abilities can still be added to make 50-100 and further post cap training more rewarding. The time investment from 50-100 already takes long than it does going from 0 to cap in many other games. An effort should be made to keep a players interest at all levels of power.

GemStone is a long-term game. I disagree with shifting the power ceiling lower and lower.

>I'd much rather dev time was spent on cleaning up elemental lore (probably a pipe dream I know and probably not in the elemental flavor direction I'd like to see)

I don't expect Dev to redo the entire ELR or wizard spell updates, and I don't want to see Dev waste time on re-balancing the same spells over and over. I've moved on.

>than focusing on some one hit wonder spell for wizards. I really don't see the introduction of such a spell adding any additional enjoyment to the game for me personally or being a great addition to the game in general.

I 100% disagree with this. Every post-cap pure profession enjoys such a spell combo/ability, and the dual removal of 515 with 0 CT and old 519 left a glaring hole in the power ceiling that post-cap pure wizards used to enjoy pre-nerfs. This is a topic I'm never going to let go of as I don't believe in constantly being told to settle for less. I played a post-cap pure wizard beyond fresh cap and continue to play other pures primarily for the offensive power ceiling on a single target level. Quality of life in daily hunting is a huge factor for enjoyment of the game for me, in terms of combat, and the removal of the ability for wizards alone was a massive setback that no profession has had to suffer in terms of forced fundamental gameplay changes since the clock was reset with the change to GemStone IV.

>But if the spell is done right, I don’t see why it matters what attack form is used. AS, SMR, or CS; they each form has their advantages and disadvantages, but an SMR solution may remain a more viable solution for warmages or bow mages. A CS route could potentially be ineffective unless massively over trained in a single sphere. Is that what we really want?

It matters because Dev has massively nerfed our core offensive CS spell as part of the wizard updates and told us that wizards should primarily bolt. SMR has different strengths/weaknesses/limitations and cannot be boosted to the same level of effectiveness for a pure as warding spells can. The ELR and updates have been primarily centered around improving and preserving the war mage build, so I disagree that continuing to cater to that contingent to the detriment of the post-cap pure wizard is balanced, given that Estild's definition of a wizard is completely the opposite of what has occurred with the direction of wizard development prioritization.

What I want, if wizards are expected to primarily bolt, is a tool that allows us to do that as effectively as post-cap spiritual pures can use their warding spells. I'm looking for parity, not equality.

>Also in my example I include a tidbit about 525 channel keeping all the old aspects of 525.

I'm against requiring CHANNEL for any spell.

>I have not played a post-cap empath or cleric yet. However, I am familiar with their playstyles as I have both of those professions still working their way to cap and have all their spells already.

If you have not played a post-cap spiritual pure, then you have no idea what their actual power ceiling is. It's an entirely different play style pre- and post-cap.

>For clerics, the main AoE disabling option they have going for is 316 for disabling a swarm. That spell has a cap on the targets it can hit, and many creatures at cap can break stuns. While this spell has its own advantages, I do not consider it to be a better option than say 410 -- which can knockdown creatures causing them to lose multiple combat rounds between rt and standing. Combining 410 with the benefits 912, 909, or 512, and wizards can RT lock, waste enemy combat rounds, de-buff EBP, immobilize enemies, and block maneuver attacks. A stun or instant death could be followed up in some situations with a subsequent cone. How does a cleric hold a candle to disabling options and versatility a wizard has in this domain?

Reliable CS-based immobilization is always safer than a level-based disabler, many of which don't impact creatures in capped hunting. Creatures that are already lying down cannot be knocked down or be RT locked. 410 is ineffective in many capped hunting grounds or on creatures such as non-corporeal undead. A wizard's mass disablers are much less reliable in capped hunting than a spiritual pure's CS-based ones.

>Likewise, 1120 for empath has its own strengths and weaknesses.

1120 is not the only disabler an empath has.

>In my assessment with their combined tools wizards have access to, they are the most powerful crowd disablers in general.

This is not true when it comes to capped hunting, as wizard disablers are relative level based and not reliable.

>Lastly, with 950, we get the option to control and clear crowds at the same time which is a much better option to have. Outright killing everything is usually the best option.

Clearing crowds is not the same as controlling them, while allowing other characters to get hits in and get credit for kills safely. I agree that outright killing is the best option, but 950 has a cooldown, which no other pure profession's offensive ability has.

>I personally do not think that is true. I have significant experience with 3 other post cap professions and there are some post cap creatures my wizard is better at killing than any of them.

I personally find it to be true in my experience. I have post-cap characters of multiple other professions, and they are all more efficient at killing single targets and hunting on a daily basis than my wizard is.

>From what I can tell, you’re the only one imposing this ceiling. Have the GM’s said if there is to be any post cap development, pre-cap development must stop? Leveling 0-100 is a long term process as well and an effort to keep new players interested across all level ranges would be a good thing for the overall life of Gemstone.

The entire ELR and wizard updates have been about constantly shifting the power ceiling downwards and improving play style for the pre-cap and war mages. That's great, but it's beyond time for post-cap pure wizards to get some love and have the one glaring area of disparity between post-cap bolts and post-cap warding spells addressed. In my opinion, those pre-cap are the ones who can adapt far more easily, while when you are post-cap, there's little else that can be done if the option or tool does not exist. Data hasn't shown any lack of interest in the game from characters pre-cap playing wizards, or there wouldn't be so many wizard bots. Wizards are already the easiest pure profession to play at a pre-cap level by far.

>We may not agree on everything, but in the end we all want improvements to our beloved class.

I agree with this.

>I’d argue that for a long while sorcerer’s had to suffer this setback. 702 and 719 used to be much more effective, as I’m sure you recall. For much of a long while, a sorcerer had to deal with being a plinker. I’m not saying a wizard should have to deal that kind of non-sense

I disagree that it's in the game or anyone's interest to force a profession to suffer through years of nerf first, fix later as first wizards, clerics, then sorcerers had to go through from GemStone III. It's now GemStone IV, and wizards are the only profession to have received a massive nerf for a second time.

>Non with the removal of instant cast 515, perhaps 519 can be given some or all of its power back.

Dev has said multiple times that this is never going to happen, so I don't believe in continuing to try to argue for a fruitless cause. I try to at least apply what little Dev has shared with players about their intentions for development and the profession because they also have clear ideas about what they want to do, which I understand.

>I also whole heartily agree with this. Ideally, improvements should have been made first or implemented subsequently with the nerfs. This should always be the case. However the devs aren’t infallible and sometimes it’s difficult to foresee the consequences of making a change. Sometimes a fine tuning approach is the easiest way to get things done.

We spent several months between the time the ELR changes were announced and when the nerfs went live (June 2015 to January 2016 iirc) telling them what would happen if it went through as is, we weren't listened to, and then exactly what we said would happen happened. :/

~ Methais