I saw it mentioned earlier, but I also like the idea of doing away with the element based bolt/ball spells and narrowing it down to a few spells where you specify the element. Thought I'd offer my suggestions as well:

901 Minor arcane bolt
-Stronger version (double DF) of Arcane Blast (1700) without the 5 sec hard rt. Wizards needs a non-elemental bolt that can be used against anything.

904 Major arcane bolt
-Stronger version (triple DF) of Arcane Blast (1700), but ball based.

903 Minor element bolt
-Element is specified by caster (air, fire, earth, water) as 917 currently allows with fire and cold. Lore training unlocks hybrid elements (lightning=air+fire, steam=fire+water, acid=water+earth, magma=fire+earth). The 4 base elements have stronger DFs than the hybrid elements, but the hybrid elements add a DoT effect in exchange. Each of the 4 base elements is strongest (highest DF) against a particular AsG category and more critters have elemental weaknesses similar to fire's effectiveness against trolls.

906 Major element bolt
-Same ass above, but ball based.

907 Arcane Stream
-A channeled spell that instantly resolves three minor arcane bolt casts in exchange for incurring 3 seconds of hard RT.

910 Elemental Stream
-A channeled spell that instantly resolves three minor elemental bolt casts in exchange for incurring 3 seconds of hard RT.

908 (OPEN)


Current bolt spells:
Minor Shock (901)
Minor Water (903)
Minor Acid (904)
Minor Fire (906)
Major Cold (907)
Major Fire (908)
Major Shock (910)


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4

ALLENM20

Just thought of something for 908.

908: Caster's Grace

-Wizard self-cast buff only

-Allows the channeling (mandatory 3 sec hard rt on each cast) of all bolt spells from FORWARD stance while maintaining 100% bolt AS.

https://gswiki.play.net/Mage_Armor_(520)#Fire_Aspect

GameMaster Estild

Thanks Krakii, I thought it was originally your idea, but couldn't find the original post. I goofed on the lightning hybrid element which you caught. Meant for it to be air and water as you stated.

To Estlid, Mage Armor is great and I'm aware of the fire aspect benefits. I think that particular benefit should be available to all bolting wizards though without devoting all your training ranks to fire lore (A wizard has to devote 190/200 ranks to fire lore to see a 34% benefit) and would go a long ways towards providing wizards with some of the same defensive benefits that empaths, sorcerers, and clerics are allowed in guarded stance if they utilize CS spells.

I'd like to see the fire aspect for mage armor provide reduced spell hindrance for wizards wearing heavier armor. Nothing outrageous, but every wizard could wear reinforced leather with 0% spell hindrance with 0 fire lore and a maxed out fire lore wizard could wear a leather breastplate with 1% - 2% spell hindrance.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4

>I'd like to see the fire aspect for mage armor provide reduced spell hindrance for wizards wearing heavier armor. Nothing outrageous, but every wizard could wear reinforced leather with 0% spell hindrance with 0 fire lore and a maxed out fire lore wizard could wear a leather breastplate with 1% - 2% spell hindrance.

Even I would have to admit that a wizard in breastplate with 2% hindrance + HCP from 520 would be OP.

I mean I still like the idea, but it would be OP.

~ Methais

@LadyFleur: He wasn't wasting slots on a weak spell, he was changing the capabilities of the spell. (Like "use it with castRT of 3s, not hardRT of 5s" and "use multiples of it" [which means different crit cycles] and "increase the DF" [but going back to hardRT, though only of 3s].)

@Methais' quote & reply of AllenM20: I don't see any reason why fire makes sense for using your armor better (i.e. not getting hindrance). If anything, earth (it's all about the defense, so you relate to your armor better), though I could also see water (you're controlling the mana better, so it flows through the obstacle of the armor).

Basically, with the Lores, crank the SeedX down to Seed(X-[2 or 3]) or even Seed(X/2).
Currently seeing starting boost at 5 ranks (Water w/Enchant, for example)? See it at 2 or 3, instead, and get to a decent percentage ("hit 10k twice" comments spring to mind) faster.
Currently seeing starting percent chance of lottery-benefit at 8 or 10 ranks? See it at 4-6 (depending on divide by two, or minus 3, or minus 2) or 5/7/8 (divide, minus3, minus2), and again, see some decent payoff, sooner.

It really would make those benefits more attractive, due to being more reliable.

In the absence of a Krakii-style full rewrite--where you just cast the 1-mana bolt, and choose which element; or the 7-mana ball, and choose the element to use & splash... this lets you use 1-mana fire against cold creatures and 1-mana water against fire creatures and 1-mana shock against steel creatures, rather than being required to pay 6 and 3 respectively for the first two--he was adjusting the capabilities of part of the existing arsenal.

Doing it with the Arcane version, there are some advantages:
Nothing is resistant to it.
Also, no atmospheric effects are affected by it.
And it still costs the same constant mana, because it's always the Arcane version.

Basically, you could use the 0-mana Arcane one, or the 1-mana Wizard's Bolt, depending.

>@Methais' quote & reply of AllenM20: I don't see any reason why fire makes sense for using your armor better (i.e. not getting hindrance). If anything, earth (it's all about the defense, so you relate to your armor better), though I could also see water (you're controlling the mana better, so it flows through the obstacle of the armor).

It doesn't really make sense for any lore to affect armor hindrance, being that it's a physical limitation. I'd probably say water would be the "best" element for it though. Earth would make sense too, since it's the most physical of the elements and it affects your strength bonus, which on paper would make it easier to support the weight of your armor, but even then it's not so much about just the weight of the armor as it is the physical limitations that would prevent you from making all these fancy magical gestures. You can be the strongest person in the universe, but your armor is only going to allow so much of that fancy movement. If water lore were to affect hindrance, I'd expect the flavor to be along the lines of making the armor more fluid allowing for all that fancy gesturing.

Not that I expect any of that to happen. It would make water lore more appealing for combat though without putting it on offense.


~ Methais

In the absence of a Krakii-style full rewrite--where you just cast the 1-mana bolt, and choose which element; or the 7-mana ball, and choose the element to use & splash... this lets you use 1-mana fire against cold creatures and 1-mana water against fire creatures and 1-mana shock against steel creatures, rather than being required to pay 6 and 3 respectively for the first two--he was adjusting the capabilities of part of the existing arsenal.

Doing it with the Arcane version, there are some advantages:

Nothing is resistant to it.

Also, no atmospheric effects are affected by it.

And it still costs the same constant mana, because it's always the Arcane version.

Basically, you could use the 0-mana Arcane one, or the 1-mana Wizard's Bolt, depending.

Pretty much, every pure class has a very low cost spell that is pretty awesome for quite a while against just about everything without any lore training. Wizards are lacking an equivalent bolt spell.

Sorcerers have 702
Empaths have 1106.
Clerics have 302.

I used steam bolt for my main hunting spell as a wizard so I had to wait till level 10 until I could get it due to it requiring 20 fire lore and it was still until level 20 when I actually had enough mana to get through a hunt using it. Minor shock is a joke since it pretty much has the same DF table as arcane blast only without the 5 sec of hard rt. Wizards really need a 1 mana spell that is actually effective to hunt with from level 1.

Having 904 as a major arcane bolt/ball spell would allow baby wizards to feel some of that awesome room clearing power at an early age as well.

901, 904, and 907 are suggestions to really help facilitate hunting for an early wizards life until level 20 or so. At level 20 wizards would have the mana pool and some lore training to really start to define their role as master of the elements, starting making some decisions as to where they want to specialize, and beginning to utilize the elemental bolts 903/906/910 to hunt with.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4

>Pretty much, every pure class has a very low cost spell that is pretty awesome for quite a while against just about everything without any lore training. Wizards are lacking an equivalent bolt spell.

What you don't realize is that for the spiritual classes, when they're low level and using their low level spells, even with as many spells as they can reasonably train with the pre-cap TPs they have, they usually fail to successfully ward a creature more than a small percentage of the time. This means that the total mana cost to cause damage to a single creature, much less kill it, is much higher than a wizard's guaranteed damage from 901. It's rare that a pre-cap wizard fails to achieve a successful AS/DS bolt resolution, even when uphunting slightly.

Wizards have 903.

>Having 904 as a major arcane bolt/ball spell would allow baby wizards to feel some of that awesome room clearing power at an early age as well.

What you fail to understand again is that spiritual pures don't feel that "awesome room clearing power" until near cap and post-cap. I disagree with continuing to shift the power ceiling downwards, such that a wizard need not be any more than a utility bot to realize full power. There is no point to me in playing a profession or character if all the power can be achieved upfront.

>you suffer 3 seconds of hard RT for wouldn't address this?

No hard RT for casting bolts.

-Drumpel

>Wizards are lacking an equivalent bolt spell.

Arcane Blast does impact damage, not "arcane" damage. Minor Water does impact damage. You already have that spell.

There's going to be similarities to what we currently have because the idea is to revise bolts spells. Not reinvent the wheel.

I'm essentially proposing that 901 would be a slightly weaker 903 mechanically. I'd like to see a water bolt be useful against earth based mobs.

If folks want to keep posting with a bunch of negatives go for it; I'd prefer if you post with your ideas on how you would like to see bolt spells revised or changed. If you like things the way they are, great. This thread really isn't for you then.

I don't think I'm alone by suggesting the below is an accurate representation of how most wizard threads go:

Poster A: I really like my wizard to wear red shirts and think red pants would be awesome if they were available too.

Poster B: Red shirts are stupid and only blue shirts should be allowed. Warriors wear pants. If I wanted to wear pants I'd go play a warrior.

Poster A: It's just an idea to chat about.

Poster B: Unless you're talking about wizard's wearing blue shirts, I'm going to only provide negative commentary towards your red shirt and pants discussion because I think your discussion will distract God from the importance of my discussion.

I'd much rather folks came across as friendly and said how much they like green shirts with polka dots and wouldn't mind seeing their wizard in a tutu or a nice pair of slippers.

Do folks really not understand the difference between engaging in open ended discussion and closed ended discussion despite disagreeing?

Do you not have a single friend that likes a different genre of music than you? I dislike rap in general, but I love Richie Branson. I bring up music because there is no correct answer as to the best type of music. It's totally subjective. I don't dislike people for liking a particular genre, I might disagree with them due to the lyrical contents of that genre though as some music does advocate stuff I don't agree with.

When a new NPC shows up in town, do you kill it right away or try and engage in conversation?

Good example is we had a lich show up in Plat that turned out to be friendly and needed our help to stop an evil undead clone army from taking over the lands. If we had just up and killed the lich from the start (Because he's a lich yo. All undead = bad) where would the fun in that have been?


AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4

>I'd prefer if you post with your ideas on how you would like to see bolt spells revised or changed.

I have, which is to change the one and only area of glaring disparity.

>This thread really isn't for you then.

That's where you're wrong, because I'm here to vote against changes I think are bad for the profession and the overall game balance. We were told that the ELR resulted from what people wanted, never mind that those suggestions were made by players who don't even have active accounts any more, and the people currently playing today are the ones who have to suffer through the upheaval.

>I'd much rather folks came across as friendly and said how much they like green shirts with polka dots and wouldn't mind seeing their wizard in a tutu or a nice pair of slippers.

There's been nothing unfriendly about it. It's a factual discussion, where my opinions are based on precedent and game balance vs. other professions. I'm not disagreeing because I dislike your wizard who wants to dress in a tutu. I disagree with making the tutu the uniform though. That's what system-wide changes mean. The area I have an issue with can be solved by a focused solution, and I expect it to. I don't expect to force everyone else to hunt that way because this is how everything has changed to become.

>I bring up music because there is no correct answer as to the best type of music. It's totally subjective.

And I totally agree. The problem here is that I played a pure because of what I liked about the class, the sheer magical power on an offensive level without hard RT. That is a non-starter. It's like I was at a pop concert and you suddenly wanted me to listen to heavy metal. I hate it. I hate the comparisons of wizards to semis and squares and the suggestions that attempt to force us into becoming them and tolerating those play styles. If I wanted to go to a heavy metal concert, I would have in the first place, but I didn't.

Tl, dr: Methais says it best when he said that if ideas are bad, he's going to say so. That's what I'm doing, because the last thing I want is a repeat of the ELR. It's nothing personal against any particular player. I'm discussing the ideas, not you.

>There's going to be similarities to what we currently have because the idea is to revise bolts spells. Not reinvent the wheel.

>I'm essentially proposing that 901 would be a slightly weaker 903 mechanically. I'd like to see a water bolt be useful against earth based mobs.

>If folks want to keep posting with a bunch of negatives go for it; I'd prefer if you post with your ideas on how you would like to see bolt spells revised or changed. If you like things the way they are, great. This thread really isn't for you then.

What you're demonstrating to me is a misunderstanding of how Arcane Blast works. I am trying to inform you. You pointed out spells from other professions between slots 2 and 6:

>Sorcerers have 702
>Empaths have 1106.
>Clerics have 302.

Since 903 falls between slots 2 and 6, I would find 903 to be an acceptable hit everything spell that uses the exact same damage type as Arcane Blast.

901 Minor arcane bolt

-Stronger version (double DF) of Arcane Blast (1700) without the 5 sec hard rt. Wizards needs a non-elemental bolt that can be used against anything.

904 Major arcane bolt

-Stronger version (triple DF) of Arcane Blast (1700), but ball based.

907 Arcane Stream

-A channeled spell that instantly resolves three minor arcane bolt casts in exchange for incurring 3 seconds of hard RT

I thought wizards are elemental (nature-type magic), hence the ability to wield fire/ice/earth/air/lightning.

I view arcane more in line with maybe mental-type or maybe even borderline spiritual-type magic that's a force of power, but not elemental.

What is "arcane" anyway?
I don't view it as elemental, so I don't think it should have anything to do with wizards. I could see it being a spell type for Savants (though I doubt they'd ever come to fruition) or maybe even sorcerers, but not wizards.

-Drumpel

>Hippo-grande posts ideas all the time and I enjoy reading them as they're creative.

If one responded seriously to all of those posts, then this forum would double in size. I'll let it blanket stand that I dislike all of those ideas that I've seen, and they are often re-writes of the same spells that just got updated.

@Drumpel - I'm used to seeing wizard type characters from various other games having a generic (non-element based) bolt or whatnot. Legends of Kesmai the wizard had magic missle as the basic attack spell if I'm remembering correctly and then some element based spells from there.

As far as GS4 is concerned, I see arcane as the gathering of mana into a lethal form. A student would first learn how to concentrate mana enough for it to be visible to the eye and then learn various uses for it, one of them being attacking. Something basic that all spell casters tend to learn in the course of their magical learning which I can only guess is what the devs had in mind given the Arcane spell circle and arcane blast.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4

>See how much nicer that sounds and encourages discussion rather than snark.

I generally post with the least amount words it takes as I have other things to do at the same time. Take that as you will for how you read my posts.

>Second, I wish Hurl Boulder could also be cast in such a way that it exploded on impact, throwing painful shards of rock through the area

514 EVOKE would seem like a good spot for something like this, especially since Stone Fist needs some things to make it fun and useful.

The stone fist would summon a 510 boulder, then it would punch the boulder, making it explode into a bunch of shards to either hit multiple targets, or cause multiple hits on a single target.

It would be useful, flashy, and make Stone Fist less garbage.

>Third, need more Minor Cold accessibility.

X (20?) ranks of water lore should just unlock this skill imo, especially if shatter requirements aren't going to be loosened up. Does anyone even use Shatter on a regular basis? I'm curious how many shatters have actually taken place since it's been live. I would guess it's pretty low.

>I'd much rather folks came across as friendly and said how much they like green shirts with polka dots and wouldn't mind seeing their wizard in a tutu or a nice pair of slippers.

People (including myself) have a habit of reading text in the wrong tone. This appears to be another case of that.

I think it's safe to say that almost no wizards want to be forced into channeling in order to get reliable results as a pure caster.

>Poster A: I really like my wizard to wear red shirts and think red pants would be awesome if they were available too.
>Poster B: Red shirts are stupid and only blue shirts should be allowed. Warriors wear pants. If I wanted to wear pants I'd go play a warrior.
>Poster A: It's just an idea to chat about.
>Poster B: Unless you're talking about wizard's wearing blue shirts, I'm going to only provide negative commentary towards your red shirt and pants discussion because I think your discussion will distract God from the importance of my discussion.

In most cases it's more like:

Poster A: I have this idea and it's <ideas>
Poster B: I disagree, and my reason for that is <reasons>
Poster A: Omg why are you so mean????

>I don't dislike people for liking a particular genre, I might disagree with them due to the lyrical contents of that genre though as some music does advocate stuff I don't agree with.

What makes you think someone who disagrees with your idea dislikes you?

>Here's a tip: If you make the ideas the way YOU would like to see things to go, you're already going to like them, and not have anything negative to say about the idea as posted. :)

Like Fleurs said, we were told that the ELR is "what we wanted" despite the fact that it consisted of a bunch of old mostly bad ideas, mostly by people who have been gone from the game for years now.

I don't want to log in one day and have some new dev that's the opposite of what I want, only to be told "No one had a problem with it when it was presented so we assumed that this is what you wanted." Unlikely, sure, but you know...just in case.

I would expect the same feedback if I posted an idea that was disliked. There are 0 personal feelings involved if someone doesn't like an idea I post. And I'm sure that at least....1% of my ideas are bad.

>What is "arcane" anyway?

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/8/9/89c69620a40abb08a17837549c5c1c12.png

>Hippo-grande posts ideas all the time and I enjoy reading them as they're creative.

They're also usually overboard and very long winded, with formulas and math everywhere and all that, which GMs have already said isn't needed or wanted. They basically want us to present the ideas and the basics of how it would work, and leave the number crunching up to them.

I'm not knocking hippo or implying that he or anyone shouldn't post their ideas or anything like that, but at the same time, sometimes less is more.

~ Methais

>See how much nicer that sounds and encourages discussion rather than snark.

I generally post with the least amount words it takes as I have other things to do at the same time. Take that as you will for how you read my posts.

>I generally post with the least amount words it takes as I have other things to do at the same time. Take that as you will for how you read my posts.

I agree with Allereli on this point. I don't believe in sugarcoating things.

The above mind set is what I believe is leading to a lot of miscommuncation though.

Communication is generally regarded as being 4 parts.

1. What you think you said (Your thoughts on what you said)
2. What you actually said (Your spoken words)
3. What the other person heard (Your spoken words subject to all the little things that hinder communication: body language, background noise, language barriers, etc. etc.)
4. How the other person interpreted what you said (Their thoughts on what you said)

What every single person should be able to agree on is that communication is not easy. It takes work. Whether you're a manager at work, in a relationship, the coach of a team, etc. It takes work to be anywhere decent at it.

As Doug has said, we're all human and subject to human failings. I try my best to keep the above in mind, but oftentimes fail at it. I will continue to try at it though.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4