>>Who's Mark?

SPYRIDONM1 is what he posted most often under. Mad genius with the numbers and such. Much respect, hope he's well.

Doug

The problem I see with increasing the DF of a bolt, through any mechanism, just means that the bolt hits the rank9 crit result sooner, but then it still becomes vulnerable to being randomized to something non-lethal.

.

Now, if there were a way to either reduce points of padding...
or a way to reduce the chance of randomization...
or a way to raise the lower floor to which it could be randomized...

All of those would make it more likely for the bolt to be effective.

---

I am gratified, though, to see the "elemental attack spells, choose your element" idea come back. :)

Repost:

---

by: KRAKII
Re: There's Always September...
on 8/4/2005
at 2:03:13 PM
## 4880

"To second someone else's idea, I like the thought of allowing the wizard to choose which element they want to cast in the cone. Call it Elemental Flurry (or Burst)." -- Geoff

Several years ago--probably about 10, when the deICEing work was being done--there was a round of suggestions going around (I know, because I was fueling some of the suggestions) to get rid of the Shock Bolt, Water Bolt, Acid Bolt, Fire Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Fire Ball, Cold Ball, Cone of Lightning crap... and have:
a) Elemental Bolt (single target)
b) Elemental Ball (single target, splash damage)
c) Elemental Cone (multiple targets)

And, to update the idea for now, since we already have such types of spells...
d) Elemental Grasp (single target, trap the target, continuing effects)
e) Elemental Cocoon (can't really call something "immolation" if you're surrounding it with, well, Water; or Air)
f) Elemental Wave (more likely to work when a Fire wave is used versus Cold creatures, and vice versa)

.

Change the names, base all of them on trained skill [the Lore list]... and every effect on the list is available at the same mana cost (rather than some bolts being 1, 3, 4, 6, and 10 mana). There are Cones of Fire, Cones of Lightning, Cones of Stone, what have you.

The ones that are already implemented work exactly this way:
g) Major Elemental Wave (causes damage, and of a type according to skill.)
h) Elemental Weapon (give flare according to skill)
i) Weapon Fire (give damaging flare according to skill)

...what's the holdup in getting them all done the right way?

The reason I chose to bring DF discussions forward is because DF plays two roles (unless I'm grossly misunderstanding).

It does factor for crit rank - and yes, therefore crit randomization would still be a factor.

But, it also applies to raw damage. My thinking (simplified, without running numbers) was, if an average cast of fire bolt does 100 points of damage, a 3x DF fire bolt would do 300 points of damage. It would also, very likely, ensure a rank 9 crit, but that crit would be randomized as per normal.

That's the 'if wizard = bolt and bolt = attrition' point.

The problem with randomization is that it occurs in almost all cases after all other adjustments. As far as I know, you can't get a rank 9 randomized down to rank 5 and then have something affect it that takes it back to rank 9.

So, I was thinking of ways to increase the attrition side of the equation.

Doug

I'm getting ready to update the sandbox entry with the changes I mentioned. . . Friday? I haven't seen any vehement opposition yet. But I did also want to throw my thoughts behind a couple of things.

>>Elemental Barrier - Costs 10 Mana - For 12 Seconds, You have 100 Phantom HP, that will absorb attacks before taking damage. IF the barrier absorbs the attack, you will not take damage or criticals.

While I'm always interested in suggestions that are cool for wizards, and I like the idea this suggestion proposes, I agree with Fleurs that it doesn't entice me at all when considering channeling. For me, again, it's not getting hit (which happens infrequently, but can be survived). It's about moving. This spell doesn't do anything to allow for moving, it just helps shelter the hits. Not to say it's not a good idea, but in the context of driving channeling. . . not really the offset I'd look for. I'd also point out at one time Wizards had a spell somewhat similar (Unpain (510), if aged memory serves), but it was removed.

>>Several suggestions to combine bolt / ball spells - current and historical

I've always liked this idea, as well. As Robert (and perhaps others of you) know(s), our origin story with I.C.E.'s Rolemaster had like provisions across multiple spell lists. I think that's the real challenge here - there aren't enough spell lists, nor enough spell ideas (presently!) to really justify this. Now, I'm always willing to flow along the path of 'improvement for the sake of improvement', but I am one of several players of differing professions who understand development priority on this wouldn't likely be 'high'. Still, we'll keep it around, and put it in the specific observations section of the summary so it is retained - and may draw a response from the delivery team.

While I'm on the topic of more spell lists (see what I did there?), I would like to also rekindle the concept that while wizards have the potential to learn 303 spell ranks, I'd like to see more lists to draw from. I wouldn't change the number of total spells, and it would take a lot of work to entice wizards not to jump on just three lists (efficiency spread). But I think it would drive greater diversification. I think this holds true in all three magic spheres - but that's a lot of work! And possibly a pipe dream. It certainly doesn't answer today's challenges - so if it makes the list at all, it's probably a mention and nothing more.

I'll tell you point blank, though - if the Arcane list were opened up to learning by professions, I wouldn't hesitate to find 20 spell ranks to drop somewhere to train in that list natively. Maybe even 25 (can't wait to see 1725). I'd probably pull from MnE, maybe a bit from MjE, depending. But what fun! That's just me, though. And imagine how Monks would feel!

A bit more about the list as it develops. So far, I'm sensing we have good definition about the challenges well-post cap wizards feel they face, and I'm sensing we have a couple other areas that may - to a varying degree - affect all wizards. I wanted to let the community know that I have a few other items that aren't really 'problems' of this stature. I'll give an example: Invisibility (916). I would have added Spell Store (502), but that situation has been handily remedied! One that is going on now is the ATTUNE discussion.

These 'problems' will be included in the summary in the 'specific' section - briefly referenced to any definitions / potential solutions. I envision a line item type listing with short links. But if there's a 'peeve' or 'quality of life' situation that we as a community want to capture, don't forget to contribute there, too!

Doug

Dev has said they don't believe in removing spells and creating empty slots without replacements, and I agree with that approach. I also don't believe a system-wide bolt re-write is on the table, and I personally would not want time spent on that vs. other more important projects for the rest of the game. I'm satisfied with the bolt options we have now. It just needs something to address the post-cap disparity in quality of life and reliable killing. I vote against re-inventing the wheel.

>What could make bolting more interesting instead of just casting the same bolt over and over? Using different elements for different effects is something that has a lot of potential (like cold and fire against stone creatures), but as is, it's hardly worth casting 903 to soak a target, just to follow up with 910 when you could just cast 910 twice.

Training in a lore should reduce an opponent's resistance (or immunity) to the same element, to the point where a master fire wizard can use 906 on fire critters without any reduction. This isn't directly related to the question but it is sensible when dealing with spell synergies because they deal with opposed elements, and many critters are immune to one or the other.

Then, most/all elemental spells add some kind of short-term (1-2 round) status effect when they hit. We have soaked/wet already, but also add hot, cold, electrified, and whatever-for-earth. Then, all the other elements interact with these status effects. The status creates a weakness against the opposed element, which could take the place of a major flare or some kind of weighting, and perhaps a small bonus against the same element, which could take the form of padding. For example, casting 906 heats an opponent up, which makes him susceptible to 907 or other cold spells, but which also gives him some padding against other fire/heat spells until the status effect wears off. The status effect would hang around until it goes away a follow-up spell removes it. It isn't necessary that a follow-up spell remove it, and only one status can be in effect at the same time. Ideally, then, casting 906/907 or 906/903 in sequence would be more effective than casting 906/906. Combined the resistance-lowering effect, above, then if you specialize in water lore you could throw fire/ice synergies at krolvin or elementals or critters that otherwise would just scoff at the cold.

To add to my earlier post, there should also be minor synergies between unopposed elements. For example, use fire to get a critter heated up, then cast air or earth (or acid, or whatever) on it for a different kind of effect than just the fire/water opposition effect. Different kinds of spells could have different effects -- some create a lasting effect like acid splash, others might be a more immediate effect like unbalance/dazing/rooting. There are a lot of interesting effects already in the game that could be used, somehow.

>If that observation holds as true, then the suggestions wouldn't really 'fix' a problem (unless it was a small problem). Still, this needs to be captured / attributed. So, that question - do we include this as a potential 'bolt fix', or do we put it in play for 'future suggested improvements' type information?

From my understanding of Estild's question, it said nothing about "fixing" a problem. The second question was simply what can be done to make bolts more "interesting", not more powerful. I don't consider any of the bolt suggestions we've seen related to this question to be anything along the lines of something that would "fix" things, so I'd classify it as the latter.

We are asked what will make channeled bolts better the answer for many is nothing. CS casters get results without channeling so the +5 to +40 end result doesn't outweigh the cast and move option in some of our opinions. For me I use channel very seldomly on my characters. Right now my wizard only channels when rapid fire air lore is activiated. I think the answer is to give bolt elements secondary effects when channeled and allow them to interact with each other for minor 10 percent to devastating effect ie shatter 50% damage (something that I have never done in anything but the test server.)

Current bolt spells 901, 903, 904, 906, 907, 908, 910, 510, 518=9
Revamped krakii idea minor bolt(901), splash bolt(906), bolt(907), major bolt(910), area bolt (518), single target multi bolt (500?900?)=6 If you keep meteor swarm that is 3 spells slots left open. How long were we without a 950, 535, 550 spell slot? How long have we been stuck with what I consider useless spells 514, 915, 525? I do not see the difference.

Now I think just adding a single target multibolt is the answer to the one target kill "problem", but are we really going to keep repairing a flawed system ad infinitum? How much more development time is one over the other? Does DEV want to make channeling bolts the answer?

I think that single target multi bolt is not the way that Dev wants to go about it because it would have been implemented by now.

GBB

>are we really going to keep repairing a flawed system ad infinitum?

The bolting system is not flawed pre-cap and only has one glaring area of disparity, in achievable post-cap power ceiling and quality of life. I'm looking for a tool that addresses that gap, not rewrites the whole system. I do not want everything torn down into a homogenous minor/major bolt/ball setup such that bolting is the only thing a wizard can do. I play a wizard not because I want to bolt and only bolt to infinity and beyond, but because I enjoy the ability to manipulate all aspects of the elements, whether it's via 917 or any other potential non-bolt spell. That's what I think of when I think pure elementalist.

>How much more development time is one over the other?

Tearing down the entire bolting system is infinitely more development time. I'd imagine that was why it wasn't done in the first place. Not to mention, everything in the game, from creatures, to other pure classes who use wizard wands, to wizards themselves are balanced with the existing bolting system in mind. I would rather Dev address the one glaring area of disparity and move on to things the benefit the entire game, such as post-cap goals, than reinvent the wheel for the sake of it. I vote strongly against it.

>I believe bolting is out of parity well before cap, but post-cap it is more obvious. EBP and hitting limbs become noticeable once warding casters have enough CS to ward reliably, which can depend on their training and the hunting area.

I disagree. Bolting is easier and more reliable all the way to cap, and before cap, it's much harder to uphunt reliably with warding spells than bolting. This is why spiritual pures were given bolt AS boosters to compensate. There's no evidence that suggests that pre-cap wizards have a more difficult time leveling via bolts than pre-cap spiritual pures do with warding spells, nor has it been the case in my experience playing all pure classes both ways.

>I thought the issue was QoL - number of casts, number of clicks, etc. Reliability.

It is. Bolting provides a superior quality of life and more reliability pre-cap than warding does and for lower mana cost. Both systems have strengths and weaknesses that aren't out of sync until it comes to the post-cap ceiling of what is achievable.

>I think these combo effects really need to be baseline though.

^ This. Let lore enhance the effects, but the effects themselves should be baseline.

~ Methais

>>but air + fire? (Maybe plasma?)

Has my vote!

Doug

But it's not new!

https://gswiki.play.net/Plasma_critical_table

Doug

KRAKII

air + fire? (Maybe plasma?)

Plasma is not a composite element in Elanthia. It's spiritual.

GameMaster Estild

>>Plasma is not a composite element in Elanthia. It's spiritual.
>>GameMaster Estild

But does it have to be?

Do you have an alternative for what air + fire would combine into?

LADYFLEUR

And this is another advantage spiritualists have, because plasma is a primary component of making 317 effective against all creatures types, as none are immune to plasma, unlike the other elements. The same goes for sorcerers and Balefire.

Unless I am mistaken, no creature is also immune to impact (510, earth and air version of 518) or acid (904, 1710, 518) criticals, or even if there are, there would be a handful of such creatures at best. Wizards are not helpless just become a creature is immune to specific element.

GameMaster Estild

>Unless I am mistaken, no creature is also immune to impact (510, earth and air version of 518) or acid (904, 1710, 518) criticals, or even if there are, there would be a handful of such creatures at best. Wizards are not helpless just become a creature is immune to specific element.

Earth-based creatures, such as in the Bowels, are immune to 510. Fire/steam creatures are immune to acid. The fact is that plasma is less restrictive as an offensive option, yet it's available to the spiritualists who already have many effective, CS-based offensive options.

LADYFLEUR

Earth-based creatures, such as in the Bowels, are immune to 510.

Which ones?

>cast ele
You gesture at a greater earth elemental.
You hurl a large boulder at a greater earth elemental!
AS: +322 vs DS: +206 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +63 = +201
... and hit for 38 points of damage!
Light strike to chest.

>prep 510
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
>cast other ele
You gesture at an earth elemental.
You hurl a large boulder at an earth elemental!
AS: +322 vs DS: +193 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +74 = +225
... and hit for 48 points of damage!

>prep 510
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
>cast krynch
You gesture at a greater krynch.
You hurl a large boulder at a greater krynch!
AS: +322 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +25 = +145
... and hit for 25 points of damage!
Blow connects right below right eye!

>prep 510
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
>cast shaman
You gesture at an Illoke shaman.
You hurl a large boulder at an Illoke shaman!
AS: +322 vs DS: +130 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +54 = +274
... and hit for 109 points of damage!
Blow removes the Illoke shaman's left hand neatly!
The Illoke shaman rumbles in pain as his heavy stone arm falls to the ground!
The Illoke shaman is stunned!

>prep 510
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
>cast mystic
You gesture at an Illoke mystic.
You hurl a large boulder at an Illoke mystic!
AS: +322 vs DS: +115 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +58 = +293
... and hit for 134 points of damage!
Strike to the Illoke mystic's throat removes it!
The Illoke mystic rumbles in agony as he teeters for a moment, then tumbles to the ground with a thundering crash!
The Illoke mystic shudders one last time before lying still.

>prep 510
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
>cast elder
You gesture at an Illoke elder.
You hurl a large boulder at an Illoke elder!
AS: +322 vs DS: +138 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +19 = +231
... and hit for 84 points of damage!
Strong blow to right leg breaks it!
The Illoke elder is knocked to the ground!
The Illoke elder is stunned!

>prep 510
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
>cast jarl
You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a large boulder at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +322 vs DS: +100 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +49 = +299
... and hit for 117 points of damage!
Hard strike to left arm breaking tendons and bone!
The Illoke jarl is stunned!

LADYFLEUR

Fire/steam creatures are immune to acid.

Fire, yes, steam no.

>cast steam ele
You gesture at a huge steam elemental.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a huge steam elemental!
AS: +322 vs DS: +191 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +20 = +184
... and hit for 43 points of damage!
Some of the acid sticks to a huge steam elemental and continues to bubble away!

LADYFLEUR

The fact is that plasma is less restrictive as an offensive option, yet it's available to the spiritualists who already have many effective, CS-based offensive options.

The fact is it's not even a handful of creatures that are immune to impact and acid. Creature immunity means very little when easily have other options to fall back on. Your constant hyperbole undermines the legitimacy of many of your potentially valid concerns.

GameMaster Estild