I've been noodling over this thought for a couple days since it was posted.
>>I didn't say that warding spells couldn't also be aimed, too. There's room for that. I am suggesting a rather complex and unlikely path forward that also involves removing instant kill from the game, that probably should never have been introduced here. Besides 720, how many of the spells that currently instant kill are used against PCs with the same effect? They're just icing on the cake because we don't worry about them as PCs. I understand if nobody else likes idea, because it most certainly seems like a nerf from the player perspective. It changes the baseline of the whole conversation, however: without seeing the kill per second ratio of using aimed bolts, and comparing to aimed warding spells, we'll never know if they are a nerf or not. Since they haven't been implemented, they certainly don't need to be a nerf.
Kandor's general open question could be intriguing. It's not too different, at this stage in the sharing / brainstorming, than many of Taverkin's suggestions a couple of years back were. And I seem to recall many wizards liked some of those suggestions, too. And of course, select members of the GM team (looking at you, Finros) have been advocating for a while that the speed of combat is an area that needs attention.
It is true that on the one hand, anything that I perceive taken from me that makes me lesser today than what I was yesterday I will call a nerf; yet, on the other hand, we know that these things must sometimes occur and often open new avenues to explore - so they are not always and completely bad.
I would like to hear more. I'm not saying yet that I like the idea - and I admit that it feels like it has a couple strikes against it already. But, I still think it's worth running through.
Say on, Kandor, say on!
Doug
DOUG
LADYFLEUR
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 11:25 AM CDT
If the speed of combat slows down any more, given the grind-heavy nature of increasingly combat oriented events (in particular, pay ones), I predict there will be a mass departure from many classes.
DOUG
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 11:30 AM CDT
Yes, that is a significant risk in this scenario. Taverkin used to point out that he thought there would be ways of handling this situation - even got me started exploring a couple other games to get a sense of what he was trying to suggest.
While this may be one of the strikes I had mentioned - the exploration itself costs nothing but a few free-floating electrons. That risk can be more specifically applied as we hear more about the idea. I wouldn't let it stop the dialog now, though.
Doug
While this may be one of the strikes I had mentioned - the exploration itself costs nothing but a few free-floating electrons. That risk can be more specifically applied as we hear more about the idea. I wouldn't let it stop the dialog now, though.
Doug
LADYFLEUR
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 11:37 AM CDT
>the exploration itself costs nothing but a few free-floating electrons.
Certainly, but others are equally able to continue the dialogue that it's a terrible direction for the game. People keep pointing unfortunately to examples from DragonRealms to import to GemStone, but it's worth noting that DragonRealms is an environment of AFK scripting bots, which I don't want GemStone to have to become.
I don't play GemStone because I want it to become identical to every other game. The more tedium and grinding that is added, the less time there is for anyone to stop and interact with one another and do the other things that makes the game unique.
Certainly, but others are equally able to continue the dialogue that it's a terrible direction for the game. People keep pointing unfortunately to examples from DragonRealms to import to GemStone, but it's worth noting that DragonRealms is an environment of AFK scripting bots, which I don't want GemStone to have to become.
I don't play GemStone because I want it to become identical to every other game. The more tedium and grinding that is added, the less time there is for anyone to stop and interact with one another and do the other things that makes the game unique.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 12:38 PM CDT
Slowing down combat is probably the absolute worst thing dev could possibly implement to combat and I don't see any way it could ever be a net positive for the game.
~ Methais
~ Methais
KRAKII
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 05:08 PM CDT
The problem with combat is multi-fold, at this point.
- Aimed swings. This makes a HUGE difference in combat, everything from making it easier to hit subsequently (remove a shield arm [or just the hand], which may change the casting as well [creatures wearing AsG0/no armor, with a shield, go from +20 to +25 CvA]; or a leg to knock it down) to just outright lethality (head, neck, eye, usually).
- Restricted range of crits. Iron Crown had nothing if not ginormous tables of... stuff. They had the Krush, Puncture, Slash, sure, and of course also cold, lightning, fire, poison... but also Holy, Large Creatures, Super Large Creatures, Unholy, this, that, whatever, and so on. SO many tables of crits. Because of the nature of crit generation, you could roll less than 0, or well over 100. We have a possible range of... ten. And in that span of 10 crits, we need to have as many as 5 degrees of severity (whiffle, rank 1/2/3 wound, possibly death). Doesn't leave a lot of space for non-superb damage.
- Crit rank tied directly to HP inflicted. (And the removal of the 'reverse' type of attacks, those that are more effective against heavy armor. Thinks like the Ram/Butt/Bash attack [knock over the plate wearers], or shock against metal armors [Reverse Spell Law/Shockbolt vs. plate].) Weenie-weapons are, unless you are Hiding/Ambushing, nearly entirely useless. Compared to when we used to desire a rapier, because it was so easy to hit with. With the level of crit based on the degree of success (how much over your needed roll did you get?), we were only doing maybe 3-8 HP of damage, but getting a good crit because of the result. Now, it's 3-8HP DETERMINES the result, which--because we're looking at only 3-8HP anyhow--is going to be a crappy crit.
These are the primary issues with non-warding combat.
.
If it had been done, way back when Cyper added the aimed swings, that the result of "death" was REMOVED if you aimed, then maybe things would work better. You could still aim, still remove the eye, still do that 12-round stun (which most creatures are going to break out of anyhow), or still go for surgical strikes (as above: make easier hits, remove both hands/prevent casting, whatever), but the ONLY way to get a death-crit would be if you were using an UN-aimed swing.
Nowadays, the expectation of speed is just too much. Attrition combat as such is pretty much a thing of the past, and trying to change it too radically will drive the customers off. MAYBE they could do a phased approach, maybe Growing Pains IV & V & VI, but it would be a tough sell.
- Aimed swings. This makes a HUGE difference in combat, everything from making it easier to hit subsequently (remove a shield arm [or just the hand], which may change the casting as well [creatures wearing AsG0/no armor, with a shield, go from +20 to +25 CvA]; or a leg to knock it down) to just outright lethality (head, neck, eye, usually).
- Restricted range of crits. Iron Crown had nothing if not ginormous tables of... stuff. They had the Krush, Puncture, Slash, sure, and of course also cold, lightning, fire, poison... but also Holy, Large Creatures, Super Large Creatures, Unholy, this, that, whatever, and so on. SO many tables of crits. Because of the nature of crit generation, you could roll less than 0, or well over 100. We have a possible range of... ten. And in that span of 10 crits, we need to have as many as 5 degrees of severity (whiffle, rank 1/2/3 wound, possibly death). Doesn't leave a lot of space for non-superb damage.
- Crit rank tied directly to HP inflicted. (And the removal of the 'reverse' type of attacks, those that are more effective against heavy armor. Thinks like the Ram/Butt/Bash attack [knock over the plate wearers], or shock against metal armors [Reverse Spell Law/Shockbolt vs. plate].) Weenie-weapons are, unless you are Hiding/Ambushing, nearly entirely useless. Compared to when we used to desire a rapier, because it was so easy to hit with. With the level of crit based on the degree of success (how much over your needed roll did you get?), we were only doing maybe 3-8 HP of damage, but getting a good crit because of the result. Now, it's 3-8HP DETERMINES the result, which--because we're looking at only 3-8HP anyhow--is going to be a crappy crit.
These are the primary issues with non-warding combat.
.
If it had been done, way back when Cyper added the aimed swings, that the result of "death" was REMOVED if you aimed, then maybe things would work better. You could still aim, still remove the eye, still do that 12-round stun (which most creatures are going to break out of anyhow), or still go for surgical strikes (as above: make easier hits, remove both hands/prevent casting, whatever), but the ONLY way to get a death-crit would be if you were using an UN-aimed swing.
Nowadays, the expectation of speed is just too much. Attrition combat as such is pretty much a thing of the past, and trying to change it too radically will drive the customers off. MAYBE they could do a phased approach, maybe Growing Pains IV & V & VI, but it would be a tough sell.
CANDIDE
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 05:50 PM CDT
"If it had been done, way back when Cyper added the aimed swings, that the result of "death" was REMOVED if you aimed, then maybe things would work better. You could still aim, still remove the eye, still do that 12-round stun (which most creatures are going to break out of anyhow), or still go for surgical strikes (as above: make easier hits, remove both hands/prevent casting, whatever), but the ONLY way to get a death-crit would be if you were using an UN-aimed swing.
Nowadays, the expectation of speed is just too much. Attrition combat as such is pretty much a thing of the past, and trying to change it too radically will drive the customers off. MAYBE they could do a phased approach, maybe Growing Pains IV & V & VI, but it would be a tough sell.-KRakii"
What problem are we solving by going this route? Are the creatures do for this attrition like system? I would not look forward to plugging away at a creature only to have it hit me once and kill me. Convince me this is the way to go but as of right now I do not think this is going to add to the playability of gemstone.
GBB
Nowadays, the expectation of speed is just too much. Attrition combat as such is pretty much a thing of the past, and trying to change it too radically will drive the customers off. MAYBE they could do a phased approach, maybe Growing Pains IV & V & VI, but it would be a tough sell.-KRakii"
What problem are we solving by going this route? Are the creatures do for this attrition like system? I would not look forward to plugging away at a creature only to have it hit me once and kill me. Convince me this is the way to go but as of right now I do not think this is going to add to the playability of gemstone.
GBB
KANDOR
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 07:39 PM CDT
If a wizard could aim a bolt at the opponent's head and reliably take it off the same way as a warrior/archer/etc. well trained to open aim, then "reliable kill" is achieved without resorting to instant kill, using mechanics that already exist in the game. There's nothing in this that should slow down combat. It should speed combat up.
As far as details go, I suppose I'd make spell aiming skill analogous to open ambush. Spell Research raises bolt AS just as it raises CS. Spell Aiming gives a token boost to AS or none at all, but it makes it easier to aim spells. The current training expectation should remain the same, which will make it tricky to implement. Professions like wizards will be much more reliant on aimed spells than professions that aren't as good at aiming. It'll need some kind of redux/runestaff/etc. formula for people to wave wands with, unless they are reworked to MIU or a different magical skill. Then,updating the spells and rebalancing their effects against the ability to aim them. Maybe spells have to be cast to be aimed, not channeled or evoked, so you don't gain the other bonuses, but you can say "cast kobold head" or whatever to do them in. It might be possible to retain the spells in their current form, unaimed, and also have an aimed version added. I understand it's a whole lot of work, either way.
I'm sure the idea is full of holes, but the concept is there. Maybe there's a different way than this. Technically, this would not only end the kill ratio discussion but also pave the way to get rid of spell AS/DS for bolts and just use CS/TD for all spells.
As far as details go, I suppose I'd make spell aiming skill analogous to open ambush. Spell Research raises bolt AS just as it raises CS. Spell Aiming gives a token boost to AS or none at all, but it makes it easier to aim spells. The current training expectation should remain the same, which will make it tricky to implement. Professions like wizards will be much more reliant on aimed spells than professions that aren't as good at aiming. It'll need some kind of redux/runestaff/etc. formula for people to wave wands with, unless they are reworked to MIU or a different magical skill. Then,updating the spells and rebalancing their effects against the ability to aim them. Maybe spells have to be cast to be aimed, not channeled or evoked, so you don't gain the other bonuses, but you can say "cast kobold head" or whatever to do them in. It might be possible to retain the spells in their current form, unaimed, and also have an aimed version added. I understand it's a whole lot of work, either way.
I'm sure the idea is full of holes, but the concept is there. Maybe there's a different way than this. Technically, this would not only end the kill ratio discussion but also pave the way to get rid of spell AS/DS for bolts and just use CS/TD for all spells.
DOUG
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 08:29 PM CDT
>> Convince me this is the way to go
We're not necessarily going this route (I think?), and certainly we couldn't sustain a well-populated game where players' characters plink while creatures mow down characters. I'm the one who used the term 'speed of combat', and that started the feedback. And we somehow went to Dragonrealms on our way to Mutually Assured Destruction of Elanthia. You know how it is.
On the flip side, I am of the position that if the game were an endless series of push macro (kill) / push macro (loot) / push macro (move), we would also not sustain a well-populated game. And certainly not as diverse of one. So somewhere south of 'auto kill' is where I'm headed, and somewhere (well?!) north of 'good luck kill' is where I think Fleurs wants to be.
>>Technically, this would not only end the kill ratio discussion but also pave the way to get rid of spell AS/DS for bolts and just use CS/TD for all spells.
I like this thought, you know I do. But - I'm afraid the comparisons would continue. Just moving bolts to CS / TD resolution and getting them to hit the head / neck / eyes 50% (and leave the other 10% for rank 9s on chest / abdomen) [ed note: Purely speculative numbers there!] is likely not going to answer the bell - but I'll leave others advocating for that side to discuss it.
For my part, it's intriguing enough that I'd like to see more. So 'spell aim' takes the place of 'ambush', and all spells are resolved by CS / TD. It is complex, I'll grant you. What else do you see as pro / con?
Doug
We're not necessarily going this route (I think?), and certainly we couldn't sustain a well-populated game where players' characters plink while creatures mow down characters. I'm the one who used the term 'speed of combat', and that started the feedback. And we somehow went to Dragonrealms on our way to Mutually Assured Destruction of Elanthia. You know how it is.
On the flip side, I am of the position that if the game were an endless series of push macro (kill) / push macro (loot) / push macro (move), we would also not sustain a well-populated game. And certainly not as diverse of one. So somewhere south of 'auto kill' is where I'm headed, and somewhere (well?!) north of 'good luck kill' is where I think Fleurs wants to be.
>>Technically, this would not only end the kill ratio discussion but also pave the way to get rid of spell AS/DS for bolts and just use CS/TD for all spells.
I like this thought, you know I do. But - I'm afraid the comparisons would continue. Just moving bolts to CS / TD resolution and getting them to hit the head / neck / eyes 50% (and leave the other 10% for rank 9s on chest / abdomen) [ed note: Purely speculative numbers there!] is likely not going to answer the bell - but I'll leave others advocating for that side to discuss it.
For my part, it's intriguing enough that I'd like to see more. So 'spell aim' takes the place of 'ambush', and all spells are resolved by CS / TD. It is complex, I'll grant you. What else do you see as pro / con?
Doug
KANDOR
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 08:57 PM CDT
I see a well-trained wizard using aimed bolts to get the same kind of kill ratio other professions get toward cap. That, and possibly resolving the spell aiming saga, are the biggest pros. The biggest con is it's a long and difficult project, even without the frills. Creating a cheap, 60 sec buff spell that just "aims high" for bolts might be a lot easier to implement.
LADYFLEUR
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 10:18 PM CDT
>On the flip side, I am of the position that if the game were an endless series of push macro (kill) / push macro (loot) / push macro (move), we would also not sustain a well-populated game.
The game is already that due to the level of tedium introduced in hunting. But play style should not be forced on anyone. People should have the tools and options to play with "push macro (kill)" if they so choose, instead of relying on a script to do it for them because it's so tedious.
>So somewhere south of 'auto kill' is where I'm headed, and somewhere (well?!) north of 'good luck kill' is where I think Fleurs wants to be.
I want the same 1% fumble rate of failure that any well-trained, post-cap pure with sufficient enhancives is guaranteed. These are well post-cap goals that require significant cost to achieve, but it should be achievable.
>As far as details go, I suppose I'd make spell aiming skill analogous to open ambush.
>Creating a cheap, 60 sec buff spell that just "aims high" for bolts might be a lot easier to implement.
I would expect the solution to be a limited duration booster, if not an outright kill burst spell, rather than an overall haul to the bolting system for precisely the reason that both the bolting and warding systems have weaknesses that are addressed in different ways. The disparity exists post-cap, and to change all bolts to aimed via the Spell Aiming skill would result in even more of a power imbalance between wizards and the other spiritual pures. From my state of the wizards summary:
If another type of bolt fix is made, it should be a spell that allows wizards to master/aim/channel bolts in a way that the other pures cannot. Why? Because spell aiming is a core skill that every class can train in. All of the other pures are meant to kill primarily with their highly effective and reliable CS-based spells. Their power caps at a much higher level than a bolting wizard's, but it occurs further post-cap. Post-cap spiritual pures generally use bolts to power down in group settings so as to allow everyone in the group credit for the task/kill instead of instantly demolishing everything in one shot.
Wizards, we have been told, are not meant to be as proficient with warding spells as the other pures. This opens up a whole list of problems, detailed in section I above, including stance limitations, EBP, weak attrition based damage, and the fact that every other pure can access all wizard spells via wands or imbeds. Spiritual pures can boost their bolt AS to a level comparable to a wizard's via all of the shared AS boosters available and some not available to wizards (Curse of the Star, self-refreshing 117 via native lores, 215 with native lores).
Wizards, on the other hand, cannot ever boost their CS to the same level as another spiritual pure's. Elemental CS has fewer boosters available than spiritual CS while capped creatures generally have a higher CS/TD differential for spiritual spells than elemental ones, giving the spiritualists another advantage in inherent warding margin.
Without an effective CS-based spell that kills on the same level as 717 or a 240/1115, 240/317/312 combo, warding is not a viable alternative to bolts for wizards if it is not guaranteed to work. Finally, there is no way for a wizard to access the far more effective warding spells that other spiritual pures possess due to the fact that CS is spell circle specific. If you aren't a cleric, you won't ever get use out of 302 even if it was blessed in a gem for you. Same for sorcerer wands, etc.
Since the other spiritual pures already have full access to all wizard bolting spells and can make effective use out of them while still using their primary effective and reliable CS-based spells to kill on a regular basis, there is no reason for them to have access to a bolt aiming or bolt instant kill solution for wizards, since wizards will never have access to any of the CS-based arsenal the spiritual pures possess in any comparable fashion.
Dev giving all other pure classes access to bolts via new bolt boosters has essentially let them have their cake and eat it too. They get to have an easy ride to cap via bolts with wizard wands and then continue to raise the power ceiling with maximized CS and lores. Wizards can only currently do the same attrition-based bolting to infinity.
The game is already that due to the level of tedium introduced in hunting. But play style should not be forced on anyone. People should have the tools and options to play with "push macro (kill)" if they so choose, instead of relying on a script to do it for them because it's so tedious.
>So somewhere south of 'auto kill' is where I'm headed, and somewhere (well?!) north of 'good luck kill' is where I think Fleurs wants to be.
I want the same 1% fumble rate of failure that any well-trained, post-cap pure with sufficient enhancives is guaranteed. These are well post-cap goals that require significant cost to achieve, but it should be achievable.
>As far as details go, I suppose I'd make spell aiming skill analogous to open ambush.
>Creating a cheap, 60 sec buff spell that just "aims high" for bolts might be a lot easier to implement.
I would expect the solution to be a limited duration booster, if not an outright kill burst spell, rather than an overall haul to the bolting system for precisely the reason that both the bolting and warding systems have weaknesses that are addressed in different ways. The disparity exists post-cap, and to change all bolts to aimed via the Spell Aiming skill would result in even more of a power imbalance between wizards and the other spiritual pures. From my state of the wizards summary:
If another type of bolt fix is made, it should be a spell that allows wizards to master/aim/channel bolts in a way that the other pures cannot. Why? Because spell aiming is a core skill that every class can train in. All of the other pures are meant to kill primarily with their highly effective and reliable CS-based spells. Their power caps at a much higher level than a bolting wizard's, but it occurs further post-cap. Post-cap spiritual pures generally use bolts to power down in group settings so as to allow everyone in the group credit for the task/kill instead of instantly demolishing everything in one shot.
Wizards, we have been told, are not meant to be as proficient with warding spells as the other pures. This opens up a whole list of problems, detailed in section I above, including stance limitations, EBP, weak attrition based damage, and the fact that every other pure can access all wizard spells via wands or imbeds. Spiritual pures can boost their bolt AS to a level comparable to a wizard's via all of the shared AS boosters available and some not available to wizards (Curse of the Star, self-refreshing 117 via native lores, 215 with native lores).
Wizards, on the other hand, cannot ever boost their CS to the same level as another spiritual pure's. Elemental CS has fewer boosters available than spiritual CS while capped creatures generally have a higher CS/TD differential for spiritual spells than elemental ones, giving the spiritualists another advantage in inherent warding margin.
Without an effective CS-based spell that kills on the same level as 717 or a 240/1115, 240/317/312 combo, warding is not a viable alternative to bolts for wizards if it is not guaranteed to work. Finally, there is no way for a wizard to access the far more effective warding spells that other spiritual pures possess due to the fact that CS is spell circle specific. If you aren't a cleric, you won't ever get use out of 302 even if it was blessed in a gem for you. Same for sorcerer wands, etc.
Since the other spiritual pures already have full access to all wizard bolting spells and can make effective use out of them while still using their primary effective and reliable CS-based spells to kill on a regular basis, there is no reason for them to have access to a bolt aiming or bolt instant kill solution for wizards, since wizards will never have access to any of the CS-based arsenal the spiritual pures possess in any comparable fashion.
Dev giving all other pure classes access to bolts via new bolt boosters has essentially let them have their cake and eat it too. They get to have an easy ride to cap via bolts with wizard wands and then continue to raise the power ceiling with maximized CS and lores. Wizards can only currently do the same attrition-based bolting to infinity.
DOUG
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/01/2017 11:40 PM CDT
How far 'well post cap'?
Doug
Doug
KITHUS
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 07:39 AM CDT
As someone who, in addition to a wizard, plays a bolt-centered sorcerer I would be against the addition of aiming bolts as anything but an overhaul to the existing bolt system. I'm not saying I'm against improving wizard kill speed. I just don't think making them the only class that is able to aim bolts is the right direction.
| Keith/Brinret/Eronderl |
| Keith is correct |
| -Wyrom, APM |
| Keith is correct. |
| -GameMaster Estild |
DRUMPEL
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 08:59 AM CDT
>I want the same 1% fumble rate of failure that any well-trained, post-cap pure with sufficient enhancives is guaranteed. These are well post-cap goals that require significant cost to achieve, but it should be achievable. - LADYFLEUR
Noted.
>I would expect the solution to be a limited duration booster, if not an outright kill burst spell, rather than an overall haul to the bolting system for precisely the reason that both the bolting and warding systems have weaknesses that are addressed in different ways. The disparity exists post-cap, and to change all bolts to aimed via the Spell Aiming skill would result in even more of a power imbalance between wizards and the other spiritual pures. - LADYFLEUR
Agreed. That would be the route I'd see things moving and not a re-write of the whole combat formula of the game and I wouldn't want Spell Aiming to be the factor in actually aiming bolts. Then anyone that can cast a bolt spell would be able to AIM a bolt. Which leads to those that can already excell with CS spells to also being able to AIM a bolt just like a wizard. So now wizards are still behind - sure they can AIM bolts like all other pures that can cast them, but they still lack in CS spells that provide that proven killing power that other CS based pures have access to.
>As far as details go, I suppose I'd make spell aiming skill analogous to open ambush. Spell Research raises bolt AS just as it raises CS. Spell Aiming gives a token boost to AS or none at all, but it makes it easier to aim spells. The current training expectation should remain the same, which will make it tricky to implement. Professions like wizards will be much more reliant on aimed spells than professions that aren't as good at aiming. It'll need some kind of redux/runestaff/etc. formula for people to wave wands with, unless they are reworked to MIU or a different magical skill. Then,updating the spells and rebalancing their effects against the ability to aim them. Maybe spells have to be cast to be aimed, not channeled or evoked, so you don't gain the other bonuses, but you can say "cast kobold head" or whatever to do them in. It might be possible to retain the spells in their current form, unaimed, and also have an aimed version added. I understand it's a whole lot of work, either way. - KANDOR
I don't think an adjustment of how bolt AS is earned should be shifted, but perhaps we are looking at it incorrectly.
By that I mean, perhaps Spell Aiming is supposed to just be a basic, rudimentary meaning of just that. Spell Aiming just allows you to focus your bolt spells harder in a general direction and nothing more. It's not designed to mean that you specifically and actually AIM at a specific point on a target, but you just have learned how to put power behind your bolts in a general direction. (Kind of like throwing a baseball. A lot of people can learn to throw a baseball and those that practice can put a lot of power/speed behind their throw. However, just because you can throw the ball hard, doesn't mean they are able to aim it well. Pitchers would be the group of players that excell at AIMing).
With that in mind, something like Elemental Mana Control (widely overlooked and under used in my opinion) could be the factor in how wizards are allowed to actually AIM their bolts, along with a touch of perception. The ONLY way to actually AIM a bolt should be provided in a profession only spell such as 915 (remove Weapon Fire, it's not really used by anyone). Allow it to be a basic spell that allows a wizard to focus their EMC and Perception into the ability to AIM their bolt spells. With just this spell, I don't envsion the ability to actually hit your AIMed location with too much ease with this spell, but with a greater chance of success over simply casting. I'd say it would bring a wizard's ability up to almost the same level of open ambush. (going along with the pitching analogy - those that pitch, there's a wide range of skill. You have those that can get it across the plate on a constant basis - see spell 915 - but they're not perfect, they still miss the strike zone, but they're better than someone that just throws hard and can't aim. Think Triple AAA league, solid, but not professional)
Then, a profession based spell (935 or 940) to help improve AIMing some more and also extra flash to help close that 1 kill aspect other casters tend to get with CS based spells. (This spell would put you in a professional level of pitching. You'd be even more accurate, able to put the ball lower left corner or high and inside to jam the batter and excel at AIMing, but you still miss from time to time.)
Clearly, this is just a roughly outline, but I could see something like this much more likely over re-writing the spell casting combat system.
-Drumpel
Noted.
>I would expect the solution to be a limited duration booster, if not an outright kill burst spell, rather than an overall haul to the bolting system for precisely the reason that both the bolting and warding systems have weaknesses that are addressed in different ways. The disparity exists post-cap, and to change all bolts to aimed via the Spell Aiming skill would result in even more of a power imbalance between wizards and the other spiritual pures. - LADYFLEUR
Agreed. That would be the route I'd see things moving and not a re-write of the whole combat formula of the game and I wouldn't want Spell Aiming to be the factor in actually aiming bolts. Then anyone that can cast a bolt spell would be able to AIM a bolt. Which leads to those that can already excell with CS spells to also being able to AIM a bolt just like a wizard. So now wizards are still behind - sure they can AIM bolts like all other pures that can cast them, but they still lack in CS spells that provide that proven killing power that other CS based pures have access to.
>As far as details go, I suppose I'd make spell aiming skill analogous to open ambush. Spell Research raises bolt AS just as it raises CS. Spell Aiming gives a token boost to AS or none at all, but it makes it easier to aim spells. The current training expectation should remain the same, which will make it tricky to implement. Professions like wizards will be much more reliant on aimed spells than professions that aren't as good at aiming. It'll need some kind of redux/runestaff/etc. formula for people to wave wands with, unless they are reworked to MIU or a different magical skill. Then,updating the spells and rebalancing their effects against the ability to aim them. Maybe spells have to be cast to be aimed, not channeled or evoked, so you don't gain the other bonuses, but you can say "cast kobold head" or whatever to do them in. It might be possible to retain the spells in their current form, unaimed, and also have an aimed version added. I understand it's a whole lot of work, either way. - KANDOR
I don't think an adjustment of how bolt AS is earned should be shifted, but perhaps we are looking at it incorrectly.
By that I mean, perhaps Spell Aiming is supposed to just be a basic, rudimentary meaning of just that. Spell Aiming just allows you to focus your bolt spells harder in a general direction and nothing more. It's not designed to mean that you specifically and actually AIM at a specific point on a target, but you just have learned how to put power behind your bolts in a general direction. (Kind of like throwing a baseball. A lot of people can learn to throw a baseball and those that practice can put a lot of power/speed behind their throw. However, just because you can throw the ball hard, doesn't mean they are able to aim it well. Pitchers would be the group of players that excell at AIMing).
With that in mind, something like Elemental Mana Control (widely overlooked and under used in my opinion) could be the factor in how wizards are allowed to actually AIM their bolts, along with a touch of perception. The ONLY way to actually AIM a bolt should be provided in a profession only spell such as 915 (remove Weapon Fire, it's not really used by anyone). Allow it to be a basic spell that allows a wizard to focus their EMC and Perception into the ability to AIM their bolt spells. With just this spell, I don't envsion the ability to actually hit your AIMed location with too much ease with this spell, but with a greater chance of success over simply casting. I'd say it would bring a wizard's ability up to almost the same level of open ambush. (going along with the pitching analogy - those that pitch, there's a wide range of skill. You have those that can get it across the plate on a constant basis - see spell 915 - but they're not perfect, they still miss the strike zone, but they're better than someone that just throws hard and can't aim. Think Triple AAA league, solid, but not professional)
Then, a profession based spell (935 or 940) to help improve AIMing some more and also extra flash to help close that 1 kill aspect other casters tend to get with CS based spells. (This spell would put you in a professional level of pitching. You'd be even more accurate, able to put the ball lower left corner or high and inside to jam the batter and excel at AIMing, but you still miss from time to time.)
Clearly, this is just a roughly outline, but I could see something like this much more likely over re-writing the spell casting combat system.
-Drumpel
KRAKII
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 09:10 AM CDT
Moving WeaponFire/915 (like to the Arcane [why would we bother] or even to the creature-only list [let's be honest, they're the only ones who get any actual success with it]) would be an enhancement.
Replacing it with something like Elemental Precision/915, Drumpel's idea allowing for targeting of bolts, would be a tremendous addition to that.
Replacing it with something like Elemental Precision/915, Drumpel's idea allowing for targeting of bolts, would be a tremendous addition to that.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 09:17 AM CDT
>I'm not saying I'm against improving wizard kill speed. I just don't think making them the only class that is able to aim bolts is the right direction.
I probably wouldn't really care either way, but if it were available to everyone, I think wizards should still be the "best" at it. Much like rogues are the best ambushers, empaths are the best at being fat, etc.
The whole thing about slowing combat though, I don't have the slightest clue why this is even being pushed as a discussion. Pretty sure there are roughly 0 people who would want the game to go in that direction. And for the few that might, they already have a million different ways to gimp themselves if slowing combat down is that important to them.
I'd almost prefer having to use the BREATHE and EXHALE verbs for my character to avoid suffocating than have combat slowed down even more than it already has been over the years.
~ Methais
I probably wouldn't really care either way, but if it were available to everyone, I think wizards should still be the "best" at it. Much like rogues are the best ambushers, empaths are the best at being fat, etc.
The whole thing about slowing combat though, I don't have the slightest clue why this is even being pushed as a discussion. Pretty sure there are roughly 0 people who would want the game to go in that direction. And for the few that might, they already have a million different ways to gimp themselves if slowing combat down is that important to them.
I'd almost prefer having to use the BREATHE and EXHALE verbs for my character to avoid suffocating than have combat slowed down even more than it already has been over the years.
~ Methais
MEKK1
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 09:22 AM CDT
<most prefer having to use the BREATHE and EXHALE verbs for my character to avoid suffocating than have combat slowed down even more than it already has been over the years.
That is coming in the next patch, along with you being required to use the bathroom once every 12 hrs. I know you've been patiently waiting for that last change.
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
That is coming in the next patch, along with you being required to use the bathroom once every 12 hrs. I know you've been patiently waiting for that last change.
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
DRUMPEL
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 09:39 AM CDT
>That is coming in the next patch, along with you being required to use the bathroom once every 12 hrs. I know you've been patiently waiting for that last change.
Why stop there?
We should be required to eat at least two full meals a day so we don't get distracted by hunger pains or starve to death if we don't eat for the day.
Also, water - we must drink a few glasses of water a day to ward off thirst. If you don't drink anything for a day you die from dehydration.
Last, but not least, work in heat/cold (cold is already part of the game in some places). If you start getting too hot during the day hours, you need to start removing things such as cloaks and backpacks to prevent overheating. If you get too hot you die from heat stroke.
....perhaps I've been putting too much time into 7 Days to Die lately
-Drumpel
Why stop there?
We should be required to eat at least two full meals a day so we don't get distracted by hunger pains or starve to death if we don't eat for the day.
Also, water - we must drink a few glasses of water a day to ward off thirst. If you don't drink anything for a day you die from dehydration.
Last, but not least, work in heat/cold (cold is already part of the game in some places). If you start getting too hot during the day hours, you need to start removing things such as cloaks and backpacks to prevent overheating. If you get too hot you die from heat stroke.
....perhaps I've been putting too much time into 7 Days to Die lately
-Drumpel
MEKK1
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 09:51 AM CDT
<Last, but not least, work in heat/cold (cold is already part of the game in some places). If you start getting too hot during the day hours, you need to start removing things such as cloaks and backpacks to prevent overheating. If you get too hot you die from heat stroke.>
That would make Teras a nightmare place to live, lol.
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
That would make Teras a nightmare place to live, lol.
http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
DOUG
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 10:10 AM CDT
>>:I don't have the slightest clue
You're right. I absolutely agree that you do not. Not a single one. Damn. . .now where's that pen again?
/Doug shuffles off to find his pen. Hah. Hah. Hah.
<wait for it>
Hah.
Doug
You're right. I absolutely agree that you do not. Not a single one. Damn. . .now where's that pen again?
/Doug shuffles off to find his pen. Hah. Hah. Hah.
<wait for it>
Hah.
Doug
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 11:51 AM CDT
>You're right. I absolutely agree that you do not. Not a single one. Damn. . .now where's that pen again?
So clever.
To be fair though, I'm pretty sure most people have the same reaction after most/all "let's make the game less fun" Doug posts.
>You're right. I absolutely agree
See what I mean?
PS: I have your pen. If you wish to see it again unharmed, this can be resolved peacefully via PayPal.
~ Methais
So clever.
To be fair though, I'm pretty sure most people have the same reaction after most/all "let's make the game less fun" Doug posts.
>You're right. I absolutely agree
See what I mean?
PS: I have your pen. If you wish to see it again unharmed, this can be resolved peacefully via PayPal.
~ Methais
ARCHSENEX
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 12:04 PM CDT
>> That is coming in the next patch, along with you being required to use the bathroom once every 12 hrs. I know you've been patiently waiting for that last change.
Way to spoil the new gardening system!
Way to spoil the new gardening system!
DOUG
Re: The Alternative - No 'High Kill Ratio' Challenge
05/02/2017 12:24 PM CDT
>>"let's make the game less fun" Doug posts
You're generalizing. I don't 'make the game less fun' posts. I do sometimes point out various realities. I actually do hope that there's a new self-cast spell created - we can name it Meet the Fleck (mnemonic MeFle) - and just walking into the room with this spell active instantly obliterates all foes present (including PCs designated as foes). No treasure, just like 720.
>>I have your pen. If you wish to see it again unharmed, this can be resolved peacefully via PayPal.
No, not Squibbly! Anything but that! I'll do anything!
Doug
You're generalizing. I don't 'make the game less fun' posts. I do sometimes point out various realities. I actually do hope that there's a new self-cast spell created - we can name it Meet the Fleck (mnemonic MeFle) - and just walking into the room with this spell active instantly obliterates all foes present (including PCs designated as foes). No treasure, just like 720.
>>I have your pen. If you wish to see it again unharmed, this can be resolved peacefully via PayPal.
No, not Squibbly! Anything but that! I'll do anything!
Doug
