What about making duplicate also be a self cast spell that has say a 30s duration. No AS/CS increase (or with one depending on the mana cost). No CD. It simply casts the same spell you just cast again. Mana for self cast can be raised to make it work. Yes, its almost a straight copy of 240.

Thoughts? Improvements?

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

I wasn't restricting it to bolts. Hence the CS boost notation. Like I said a AS/CS boost could be included depending on the mana cost since I am talking about a much lower level spell than 240. I should also note that the second cast would be a free cast (no mana).

What about granting you 3 double casts for the current cost of duplicate?

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

Hence why I said an increased mana cost....

It actually would be less effective than 240 but still end in the result you are looking for. The spell would lasts for 3 double casts. 240 lasts for 30 sec so thats a max of 10 casts but 9 is more likely with lag. 918 would costs 14 more mana to achieve 9 casts. It is very similar but different. Unless they have flat out said that 240 was a mistake and it is overpowered but we aren't going to change it I don't see how this is a pipe dream. You could also tie lore into it by starting at one double cast and ramp up to 3 over the course of lore training.

Seems like you are wishing for this high level spell solution that will never come. GMs think wizards are fine. It doesn't seem like you've convinced them there even is a problem.



http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

Wizards are not fine, or people wouldn't still be talking about the lack of quality of life in daily single target hunting after nearly two years. If they looked at cast/kill for 240+317, 240+1115, 717 combos as people keep requesting, they would see what the problem is. I'm not going to go run these numbers though and have someone tell me they're invalid without 10,000 repetitions, that I'm not going to do without the resources that Dev has.

I'm not looking for a spell less effective than 240 for less than even a level 20 spell.

>240 lasts for 30 sec so thats a max of 10 casts but 9 is more likely with lag. 918 would costs 14 more mana to achieve 9 casts. It is very similar but different.

This part is incorrect. 240 lasts for 27 seconds after the initial 3 second CT, but each of those casts comes with a double or triple strike simultaneously until the creature is dead. So you could theoretically get 18 casts in the remaining 27 seconds. It also only works with only a double strike because of the power of effective warding margin for CS spells, while even excessive bolt AS will never achieve the same guaranteed effect without 5-6 bolts.

I literally just said it didn't have to be bolts but any offensive spell cast...

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

>Perhaps you should focus on that instead of trying to come up with buffs that the GMs don't see as needed.

That would be the reason I wasn't the one to start this thread of solutions as I believe that's the GMs' job and they prefer to be the ones to design spells in any case...

<where's a GIF when I need it?!>

The only reason I'm even commenting in here is IF such a solution is implemented, I don't want it to be some haphazard proposal that was thrown out and someone says this is what people asked for, like the ELR.

>If 516 was removed from the game, and a single target reliable-kill spell was added in its place, would that be alright? I get the feeling kill reliability isn't going to come into play for wizards while spells like 515 and 516 exist.

I don't think this would be a popular solution because wizards are forced to hunt mostly in offensive and bolt AS is subject to spirit loss penalties, while all the other pures largely hunt from guarded and CS spells are not subject to spirit penalties. Those pre-cap wizards would likely not appreciate such a proposal as they need the extra mana to get by. Sorcerers can also sacrifice. At the post-cap level, mana isn't even a consideration at all, so there's no reason that access or lack of to mana would preclude having an instant kill spell combo.

<There are 3 people I've seen talking about it.

Well, many people were talking about it, but the ferver died down for many of us.

Most people(wizards) agree that something needs to be done to improve bolt using. Or some other single target kill answer...
But most of us have said it until we are blue in the face, and moved on to playing other characters/games.

>>as I believe that's the GMs' job

And yet, I would point out we were asked for summary, thoughts and ideas.

>>Well, many people were talking about it, but the ferver died down for many of us.

I like to think that for each active poster on any subject there are 5 who would post but aren't, 5 who did post and feel content with their contribution, and 5 who are the antithesis of Robert (look, I'm paying a subscription for board access with a free game attached!) And across the few that do post, we likely manage to get most of the concerns covered. Style points, though. . .

>>But most of us have said it until we are blue in the face, and moved on to playing other characters/games.

Unfortunately, though, there are usually between 50 and 60 wizards on at any given time - about 25 to 40 percent of the active game's population. And I can safely say that the issues we're discussing in STHKR challenge don't help advancement of the wizard profession through levels.

525 / 515 / 517 / STHKR - all of these spells are mostly post-cap discussions, and wizards are advancing just fine. Have been for quite some time. That makes it a bit harder to justify things clearly. Don't get me wrong - there are weaknesses with bolts compared to CS, OFF versus GUA, all kinds of things for us to be jealous about and ruminate over. But truth is - they don't really matter. Wizards are gaining levels just like the rest.

And to make our 'job' harder - even with all this broken and pathetic and tedious game play they're still the most popular profession by count in the game at any time. It's just damn hard. . .

Doug

I agree that both weapon (for the WarMages, and the Semis & Squares) and bolt/ball spell AS is affected by spirit loss penalties.
I further agree that there are three solutions--being in one of the other two [2] Societies, or even not in any of them at all--that do not involve being drained of spirit in the first place.
Both of the other societies even have ways to get mana; one enabled specifically by hunting [like, at Reim!], so characters can charge up Favor and charge up Enchanting mana pool at the same time.
Even for the less likely society, I would guess that Wizards at cap have a ton of Stamina sitting around doing nothing because, well, probably not so many CMans being used to fritter it away.

However, someone was saying that Wizards need to be concerned about hunting in Offensive, and that is no more true for Wizards than for any other caster. Multi-command macros or chaining things together in a script (or like me, just hitting the "F7/Stance Defensive" button as "one more button in this typing game") make the time spent in Offensive due to spellcasting (not saying anything about WarMages swinging weapons) trivial.
And before anyone brings up possibly Channeling the bolts, I note that that aspect has already been panned in previous posts, so it's a non-issue.

>That's because they're used like spell and enchanting bots, due to the way those spells have been designed to allow for that.
>The goal here isn't to drive every pocket wizard away however. It's to get parity back for post-cap wizards who feel their profession have been hijacked in favor of the pre-cap.

Don't worry, I'm starting to notice more spells becoming available to other professions from the wizard's lists - even if they show up in a 1x use per day items. People pick up enough of these and have a few uses a day, that should be enough to cover a handful of hunts. You know....20...40...60...or so minutes a rub, they now have easy access to 913 or 520 (granted 520 is kind of a waste outside of the wizard class in my opinion). It goes the other way too, some other profession spells are being released as well, so it's not just wizard spells.

Eventually pocket wizards will only be for enchanting since everyone will have access to all other wizard spells and we won't need to worry about being on par in power with other pures at cap/post-cap since we won't really be needed for anything outside of enchanting.

...perhaps I'm being too pessimistic in my thinking? But that's not true since I'm a realist and what I've seen trickling down over the past years is what appears to be a fall back to GSIII days were everyone has access to everything. I digress, back on topic!

-Drumpel

>What about making duplicate also be a self cast spell that has say a 30s duration. No AS/CS increase (or with one depending on the mana cost). No CD. It simply casts the same spell you just cast again. Mana for self cast can be raised to make it work. Yes, its almost a straight copy of 240.

If we're gonna do that, let us just duplicate ourselves. Same effect, just different flavoring.

I only say this because the only thing better than Methais is 2 Methais(es?)

>This part is incorrect. 240 lasts for 27 seconds after the initial 3 second CT, but each of those casts comes with a double or triple strike simultaneously until the creature is dead. So you could theoretically get 18 casts in the remaining 27 seconds. It also only works with only a double strike because of the power of effective warding margin for CS spells, while even excessive bolt AS will never achieve the same guaranteed effect without 5-6 bolts.

And then you can cast Rapid Fire on them for even more destruction. And boy is it fun on my 8m cleric that has nothing maxed yet while he runs circles around my 4x cap wizard's killing power (this is the case even without 515, it's just even more with it):

Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 165 65
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 120 30
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 70 15

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 56

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 56

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 147



>You, Methais, and Drumpel.

This is pretty inaccurate if you think we're the only ones who have been complaining over the past (almost) 2 years.

>Mana Leech

EBP

>Unfortunately, though, there are usually between 50 and 60 wizards on at any given time - about 25 to 40 percent of the active game's population. And I can safely say that the issues we're discussing in STHKR challenge don't help advancement of the wizard profession through levels.

Just out of curiosity...how many of those 50-60 wizards do you think are active hunting wizards instead of someone's spell/enchant bot?

>Both of the other societies even have ways to get mana; one enabled specifically by hunting [like, at Reim!], so characters can charge up Favor and charge up Enchanting mana pool at the same time.

Symbol of Mana has a 5 minute cooldown. Using it during its cooldown will cost you a deed or two. If you could just spam it and only burn up favor, that would be great, at least aside from the fact that it would seal the deal with CoL being the most useless society (which it already is imo). But unfortunately it isn't the case.

>I would guess that Wizards at cap have a ton of Stamina sitting around doing nothing because

I have 116 stamina with 1x PT and 100 CON.

>There is some of that, yes. And now they're less useful (by margins too thin for my liking) as enchanters.

How so? If they were just logging in, casting 925, and then logging back out, that hasn't changed for them with the Enchant update. The only difference for them would be increased temper times. Their main still needs spells every 4 hours though.

>Anyone suggesting they know exactly what percentage of what portion of each profession is or is not a bot is simply lying.

I don't think anyone is trying to assign a number or percentage to it. But on the other hand, it's pretty hard to dispute the fact that wizards are the most popular bot profession.

Most wizards might not be bots (or maybe they are for all I know), but most bots are wizards.


~ Methais

No, I understood that part.
Even addressed it, further up, by referencing the other two (2) societies, and even the choice to be apart from a Society.

Fundamentally, "the decision to be low on spirit is entirely of the caster's making." (And even that can be changed, with a Society Reset, nowadays.)

.

And I even addressed it from the other direction, as well: Why Can't Wizards CS-cast?

Wizards CS keeps going up as the research more spells, same as the Spirit folks.
- I know about Immolate getting changed.
- I know about EStrike getting changed.
- Stone Fist isn't worth the effort.
* Why don't they have a CS spell? Or, DO we have a CS spell, it's just that no-one's any darn good with it? Or is it just a sucky spell? If so, WHY is it (still) a sucky spell? Can it be in one of the non-Minor lists--so that all those pesky Sorcerers & Rogues & Warriors & Bards cannot cast it--if we need to come up with a new one, or move one of the extant ones?

Dev Says Wizards Bolt.
Okay... then that means that Bolting needs to not-suck.

I'm alright with all of these premises being put forward. I'm just unconvinced that it's completely hopeless.

(Then again, looking through the warding spells available in the Minor/Major/Wizard lists... yeah. Pretty underwhelming. Oooh, -20 AS. Back when it was essentially a 20-level game, yeah, that was pretty significant. Nowadays, much less so.)

>>GBB - stuff attributed to 'Doug'

Um, that was Robert. Just sayin'. . .

Doug

>>I only say this because the only thing better than Methais is 2 Methais(es?)

Hah! I agree with Fleurs - great stuff!

>>Just out of curiosity...how many of those 50-60 wizards do you think are active hunting wizards instead of someone's spell/enchant bot?

That's a fair question - and based on what I'm seeing (watching WHO PROF WIZARD and lnet / prime / merchant conversations - not authoritative, but directionally gives an idea) I'd say something on the order of 50% or so. Maybe a skosh higher, or lower. Can't say for sure, though.

>>But unfortunately it isn't the case.

True that. But I have found a use for all those dern orb gems I keep stumbling over. ;)

>>How so?

A serious reply here (to differentiate) - the thin margin is the active hunting wizard with EL:W 5 can enchant faster (heh), and enchant other things (I know, value prop isn't there for some of us), and may soon (looking at you, Contemplar, Viduus and Estild!) be able to enchant even more other things. Not talking about the spell-ups, just the enchanting, and like I say it is still too thin for my liking.

>>most bots are wizards.

Agreed - and I like every single suggestion that reduces this - with the exception of those that hamper my utility enjoyment. Unfortunately, I am realist enough to know that's at the heart of the challenge, too. ;/

Serious question - 240 and lores, does it just copy over the lores from the casting cleric / empath? Can't find anything in the docs, have an impression (belief), but wouldn't mind triangulating that impression (belief) or getting an authoritative answer.

Doug

Methaii, if you ask me.

>I only say this because the only thing better than Methais is 2 Methais(es?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0KvL8T2vEY