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Wow.
Not only does this Haste Change completely ruin the dynamic of my warmage (and the group he hunts with), it also makes the two major enchant projects that I already paid for to enchant up his items completely moot (heavier armor, a THW up to 7x), 20m+. Guess that's one less premie account Simu has to worry about. Thanks guys!
SFMMA
ASPEN
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:01 PM CDT
>The problem with this is that it requires you to be the best bolter in the game. A lower level Wizard stancing up exposes themselves to more significant Danger.
My godly bolt AS is besides the point, it is a fraction of a second, and if you're the least bit adept you can essentially make your commands sent to the game simultaneously, in one out of a million casts you'll get nanosecond unlucky and have a critter get a swing in. You don't even need to know how to write miniscripts, macros are enough. Allow me to help incant 910\rstance def\r
>Yeah, the problem with bolts has more to do with the fact that they suffer from all of the disadvantages of physical weapons with the exception of RT, which is more than compensated for by the vastly higher practical crit rate of physical weapons due to the aiming component. Bolts have a painfully low crit kill rate and cost mana for every cast, making them rather slow and inefficient.
>Of course, all anyone ever sees is their high DF and the best case scenario where you land a massive kill in one shot. We tend not to notice that it takes more casts on average to kill than a sorcerer using a 100% attrition based spell (pain), for instance. And that's for our most powerful bolts! Use a more efficient bolt and it takes even more casts, with a commensurate increase in time and risk.
Wrong argument to use with me, considering I can cast pain, and I hunt with 180 ranks of Necromancy lore so my pain is super strong, and I rarely use pain, 33 mana a kill is intensive, I can kill things with bolts far cheaper (pain is a niche spell only really useful against high maneuver risk unstunnables that cannot be webbed, or uncrittable critters with extra large health - it excels hugely in these narrow roles of course). I love bolting so so so much. Before balefire, before web bolt, before any of these existed, my primary hunting spell was 111, major fire for 3 more mana a cast, because I lurrrve bolting so much. Bolting is the single best attack mode in game in my well experienced opinion. The CS/TD system is far too structured, something can easily become unhittable, especially invasions, and the hit rate is usually less than 100% at like level so you have all that wasted mana from warded casts. With bolts, at like level, you're at 100% hit rate typically (unless you suck) so 99% of casts hit, armor aside. Then, as you hit, the critter loses DS (never happens with TD), as it loses gear, falls down, is stunned, etc. Pow pow pow. Then of course, there is the best invention ever: splash damage.
There are a lot of good arguments against some of these nerfs, that bolting is subpar is NOT one of them.
My godly bolt AS is besides the point, it is a fraction of a second, and if you're the least bit adept you can essentially make your commands sent to the game simultaneously, in one out of a million casts you'll get nanosecond unlucky and have a critter get a swing in. You don't even need to know how to write miniscripts, macros are enough. Allow me to help incant 910\rstance def\r
>Yeah, the problem with bolts has more to do with the fact that they suffer from all of the disadvantages of physical weapons with the exception of RT, which is more than compensated for by the vastly higher practical crit rate of physical weapons due to the aiming component. Bolts have a painfully low crit kill rate and cost mana for every cast, making them rather slow and inefficient.
>Of course, all anyone ever sees is their high DF and the best case scenario where you land a massive kill in one shot. We tend not to notice that it takes more casts on average to kill than a sorcerer using a 100% attrition based spell (pain), for instance. And that's for our most powerful bolts! Use a more efficient bolt and it takes even more casts, with a commensurate increase in time and risk.
Wrong argument to use with me, considering I can cast pain, and I hunt with 180 ranks of Necromancy lore so my pain is super strong, and I rarely use pain, 33 mana a kill is intensive, I can kill things with bolts far cheaper (pain is a niche spell only really useful against high maneuver risk unstunnables that cannot be webbed, or uncrittable critters with extra large health - it excels hugely in these narrow roles of course). I love bolting so so so much. Before balefire, before web bolt, before any of these existed, my primary hunting spell was 111, major fire for 3 more mana a cast, because I lurrrve bolting so much. Bolting is the single best attack mode in game in my well experienced opinion. The CS/TD system is far too structured, something can easily become unhittable, especially invasions, and the hit rate is usually less than 100% at like level so you have all that wasted mana from warded casts. With bolts, at like level, you're at 100% hit rate typically (unless you suck) so 99% of casts hit, armor aside. Then, as you hit, the critter loses DS (never happens with TD), as it loses gear, falls down, is stunned, etc. Pow pow pow. Then of course, there is the best invention ever: splash damage.
There are a lot of good arguments against some of these nerfs, that bolting is subpar is NOT one of them.
ERYKK2
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:04 PM CDT
<<This statement reflects a misunderstanding of the point of warmages, perhaps not from the design perspective but the player's perspective. As I stated in another thread, if I wanted to bolt, I would have made a bolter. If I wanted to stance dance and hang back, I would play any other class. >>
He also missed the fact that Warmages don't have spell aiming.
He also missed the fact that Warmages don't have spell aiming.
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:10 PM CDT
<There are a lot of good arguments against some of these nerfs, that bolting is subpar is NOT one of them.
As you said yourself bolts are great...unless you suck. Of course, "sucking" at bolts means you are fully trained, but don't have a boatload of enhancives. Having an extra 70 base AS plus flares and spells like spirit strike makes a single bolt look pretty impressive. Overall? Not so much. I seriously doubt you're running around plane 4 or the scatter using balefire for less than 33 mana average per kill, V. And if you didn't have the best gear in the universe, you probably wouldn't be using those bolts at all.
~Taverkin
As you said yourself bolts are great...unless you suck. Of course, "sucking" at bolts means you are fully trained, but don't have a boatload of enhancives. Having an extra 70 base AS plus flares and spells like spirit strike makes a single bolt look pretty impressive. Overall? Not so much. I seriously doubt you're running around plane 4 or the scatter using balefire for less than 33 mana average per kill, V. And if you didn't have the best gear in the universe, you probably wouldn't be using those bolts at all.
~Taverkin
BALEKIA
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:13 PM CDT
>> My godly bolt AS is besides the point, it is a fraction of a second, and if you're the least bit adept you can essentially make your commands sent to the game simultaneously, in one out of a million casts you'll get nanosecond unlucky and have a critter get a swing in. You don't even need to know how to write miniscripts, macros are enough. Allow me to help incant 910\rstance def\r
Wow. That's rather condescending. I actually do hunt using Stormfront scripts, so yeah, I know you can bundle the commends. I still get hit every so often, and always during the window between switching to offensive and switching back. Please explain how scripting something to make it very small compares with "Incant 717" in terms of leaving a Wizard as Defended as the Sorcerer that never needs to leave stance Guarded. Since I play both, I already know that there is NO comparison. Even a small chance is undefinably bigger than no chance at all. Also, you're assuming you don't run into typeahead restrictions.
Also, my understanding is that the game isn't supposed to be balanced around using scripts, macros, or other tools. If somebody was typing, or even clicking, it wouldn't even come close.
Wow. That's rather condescending. I actually do hunt using Stormfront scripts, so yeah, I know you can bundle the commends. I still get hit every so often, and always during the window between switching to offensive and switching back. Please explain how scripting something to make it very small compares with "Incant 717" in terms of leaving a Wizard as Defended as the Sorcerer that never needs to leave stance Guarded. Since I play both, I already know that there is NO comparison. Even a small chance is undefinably bigger than no chance at all. Also, you're assuming you don't run into typeahead restrictions.
Also, my understanding is that the game isn't supposed to be balanced around using scripts, macros, or other tools. If somebody was typing, or even clicking, it wouldn't even come close.
DJEFFREY1
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:18 PM CDT
"Warmages will still be viable."
We're barely viable as is past a certain level. Guess that's $30 less I have to spend a month on my Warmage account, pocket enchanter here he comes.
We're barely viable as is past a certain level. Guess that's $30 less I have to spend a month on my Warmage account, pocket enchanter here he comes.
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:21 PM CDT
>In the low 20s, I only used Haste when there were actually multiple targets in front of me. Why bother? I can save the mana for a disabler, or something to actually HURT the critter, rather than--potentially--me whiffling in front of it a lot. (But really fast!) -Krakii
Are you talking about present day? Or back in 1995? Because these days, a lot of wizards keep haste running as a purely defensive tool. Back when the only thing you had to worry about were AS/CS attacks, not so much.
~ Methais
Are you talking about present day? Or back in 1995? Because these days, a lot of wizards keep haste running as a purely defensive tool. Back when the only thing you had to worry about were AS/CS attacks, not so much.
~ Methais
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:23 PM CDT
Questions and observations:
1) 502: Is this primarily a damage spell or a disabler spell?
2) Haste (506): Will there be some sort of indicator or confirmation to assist in not casting it prior to the cooldown expiration?
3) Rapid Fire (515): Seems like a nice improvement to this spell for people that don't want to stack and macro the heck out of it. The dropping of the re-prepare is very nice! Same question as for haste, will there be some sort of indicator or confirmation requirement to help avoid casting this spell prior to the cooldown expiring?
Cone of Elements (518): Seems like it will be a fun spell!
4) Immolate (519): Does "The spell will no longer cause roundtime to a target, except for when players roll around to try to extinguish the immolate effect early." mean that creatures will no longer roll around trying to extinguish the flames early? To me that was the primary value in this spell (realizing I may be in the minority here vs. Immolation build wizards). What can we look forward to that will replace this sort of effect?
5) Tremors (909): This seems like a lot of FUN at the very least. I don't yet see it as a replacement for Immolates disabling ability but maybe in practice it will serve just as well. What is the difference between "non-friendly targets" as used in describing this spell vs. "group friendly only" as used in describing 518 (I think I am clear on what group friendly only means by the way).
6) Enchant Item (925): Seems like some neat enhancements! Any chance we can look forward to ADDING an appropriate flare to a weapons with enough skill as well?
7) Time Stop (950): This one sounds cool but also makes me think that it will be so cumbersome/complex to use that it won't actually get used. I guess we'll wait and see! Also, not trying to be negative, but for all of the great ideas/suggestions I've seen over the years for our 50th level spell slot this one seems rather low on the list for me. If you are looking for a big bang type of effect this might be better served via some sort of self-immolation that causes massive damage and stuns everything in the room for 20 seconds (at least this would remove a lot of the potential complexity involved in setting this spell up). Possibly I'm missing some great applications/potential uses for how this spell could be used but that's my first impression. I'll keep my hopes up for some of the other great suggestions that have been made in the past for the 550 slot.
-- Robert
"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
1) 502: Is this primarily a damage spell or a disabler spell?
2) Haste (506): Will there be some sort of indicator or confirmation to assist in not casting it prior to the cooldown expiration?
3) Rapid Fire (515): Seems like a nice improvement to this spell for people that don't want to stack and macro the heck out of it. The dropping of the re-prepare is very nice! Same question as for haste, will there be some sort of indicator or confirmation requirement to help avoid casting this spell prior to the cooldown expiring?
Cone of Elements (518): Seems like it will be a fun spell!
4) Immolate (519): Does "The spell will no longer cause roundtime to a target, except for when players roll around to try to extinguish the immolate effect early." mean that creatures will no longer roll around trying to extinguish the flames early? To me that was the primary value in this spell (realizing I may be in the minority here vs. Immolation build wizards). What can we look forward to that will replace this sort of effect?
5) Tremors (909): This seems like a lot of FUN at the very least. I don't yet see it as a replacement for Immolates disabling ability but maybe in practice it will serve just as well. What is the difference between "non-friendly targets" as used in describing this spell vs. "group friendly only" as used in describing 518 (I think I am clear on what group friendly only means by the way).
6) Enchant Item (925): Seems like some neat enhancements! Any chance we can look forward to ADDING an appropriate flare to a weapons with enough skill as well?
7) Time Stop (950): This one sounds cool but also makes me think that it will be so cumbersome/complex to use that it won't actually get used. I guess we'll wait and see! Also, not trying to be negative, but for all of the great ideas/suggestions I've seen over the years for our 50th level spell slot this one seems rather low on the list for me. If you are looking for a big bang type of effect this might be better served via some sort of self-immolation that causes massive damage and stuns everything in the room for 20 seconds (at least this would remove a lot of the potential complexity involved in setting this spell up). Possibly I'm missing some great applications/potential uses for how this spell could be used but that's my first impression. I'll keep my hopes up for some of the other great suggestions that have been made in the past for the 550 slot.
-- Robert
"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
ASPEN
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:36 PM CDT
>As you said yourself bolts are great...unless you suck. Of course, "sucking" at bolts means you are fully trained, but don't have a boatload of enhancives. Having an extra 70 base AS plus flares and spells like spirit strike makes a single bolt look pretty impressive. Overall? Not so much. I seriously doubt you're running around plane 4 or the scatter using balefire for less than 33 mana average per kill, V. And if you didn't have the best gear in the universe, you probably wouldn't be using those bolts at all.
I use bolts primarily for my three most played characters, only one of him is a wizard, if I expand it to 5 most played characters, they all use bolts, but now 3 are wizards.
I truly love my enhancives, and my gear, and the expense it took to obtain them was great. Why did I make the investment? Because bolts rock hard. I could have focused on CS maximizing instead, or something else, but I put all that into bolting.
I said you suck at bolting if you're like level and not getting getting a 100% hit rate (your bolts being unwardable essentially). That is certainly true, if you're doing that as a wizard you're doing it wrong. Either your training or your choice of hunting area.
But ya, I kill things with less than 33 mana all the time, I can crit kill with web bolt of all things. The thing is, pain is always 33 mana, you can be me, killing a kobold, and its 33 mana. It is never less, with bolts it is less, frequently. I will admit that Virilneus' experience with bolts is not typical with a base AS of 600 and acuity and ensorcel flares on top of that (+80 when they go off at the same time), and the 117 in the back pocket for an invasion. But I have 4 other bolters that don't get all the goodies.
DOUG
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:43 PM CDT
>> Either your training or your choice of hunting area.
Exactly this! Back to hunting roltons for you, you miniature scruffy rolton herder!
Doug
Exactly this! Back to hunting roltons for you, you miniature scruffy rolton herder!
Doug
KRAKII
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:54 PM CDT
"How are we expected to fall back on bolting? You just made us use all of our mana for that 4 minutes of haste." -- ErykK2
(Assuming 6 + 12 + 24 + 48 == 90 == 4 minutes.)
90 mana in and of itself is not even terribly onerous. Singling in Harness Power for 20 levels you 60, and the starting mana nowadays could have you with a stack even without training in it.
In four minutes you are guaranteed to have hit a mana pulse once, maybe twice, depending on where in the cycle you were when you started Haste.
And presumably you aren't wasting 3s castRT to do much with your other mana while you're under Haste.
So by 20th level, you would likely have about 25-30% of a full head of mana, after your four minutes of all-out weapon swings when you finally let Haste expire.
(Assuming 6 + 12 + 24 + 48 == 90 == 4 minutes.)
90 mana in and of itself is not even terribly onerous. Singling in Harness Power for 20 levels you 60, and the starting mana nowadays could have you with a stack even without training in it.
In four minutes you are guaranteed to have hit a mana pulse once, maybe twice, depending on where in the cycle you were when you started Haste.
And presumably you aren't wasting 3s castRT to do much with your other mana while you're under Haste.
So by 20th level, you would likely have about 25-30% of a full head of mana, after your four minutes of all-out weapon swings when you finally let Haste expire.
SILVEAN
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 12:56 PM CDT
"My godly bolt AS is besides the point," he whispered suggestively while unbuckling the straps on his 4-slot fusion armor.
KRAKII
Re: 1035 vs 506
08/27/2015 12:59 PM CDT
Largely because the spell is six times as powerful and involves shooting a spell gap three times. (20->25, 25->30, and 30->35)
There used to be GMs who said, in my hearing, "No Semi would ever shoot a spell gap."
After the Broken Lands were opened, and later Claedesbrim Castle re-opened, that was later amended to, "No Fighter or Thief would ever shoot a spell gap."
After Sagan and Jesh and Blades started using Targeting & Barrier, GMs were notoriously more circumspect in their feelings about "who was likely to train in what way."
There used to be GMs who said, in my hearing, "No Semi would ever shoot a spell gap."
After the Broken Lands were opened, and later Claedesbrim Castle re-opened, that was later amended to, "No Fighter or Thief would ever shoot a spell gap."
After Sagan and Jesh and Blades started using Targeting & Barrier, GMs were notoriously more circumspect in their feelings about "who was likely to train in what way."
TANDL
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 01:03 PM CDT
Cone question:
How will the targets be selected? Room order? Randomly? Will it hit creatures first until it runs out of targets and then switch to players? I suspect it will use the same logic as (unfriendly) 335, but I have literally no experience with that spell outside of a free festival and a certain Onarian killing enough folks that he was charged with crimes against the state.
Tal.
How will the targets be selected? Room order? Randomly? Will it hit creatures first until it runs out of targets and then switch to players? I suspect it will use the same logic as (unfriendly) 335, but I have literally no experience with that spell outside of a free festival and a certain Onarian killing enough folks that he was charged with crimes against the state.
Tal.
KRAKII
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 01:11 PM CDT
Usually with the ability to hit multiple targets:
- if you have no target specified (and do not give one with the cast/attack command making it relevant) it starts at the top of the room and goes down;
- if you have a target specified with an untargeted command (just "prep/cast", or "incant 910", or "mstrike") then it starts with your specified target, continues down through the room, and may or may not overlap onto players if that's relevant. Totally-player-safe effects should then wrap up to the top of the room and start working through those critters that were before the one that you actually blasted (target 5th orc/incant, orcs 1-4 are the last things hit).
- if you have no target specified (and do not give one with the cast/attack command making it relevant) it starts at the top of the room and goes down;
- if you have a target specified with an untargeted command (just "prep/cast", or "incant 910", or "mstrike") then it starts with your specified target, continues down through the room, and may or may not overlap onto players if that's relevant. Totally-player-safe effects should then wrap up to the top of the room and start working through those critters that were before the one that you actually blasted (target 5th orc/incant, orcs 1-4 are the last things hit).
GS4-KONACON
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 01:15 PM CDT
>Cone question: How will the targets be selected? Randomly? Will it hit creatures first until it runs out of targets and then switch to players?
Anything I toss out about this spell is currently still subject to change, so keep that in mind. However, at the moment the plan is for it to target creatures first and then move onto players afterwards if the maximum number of targets hasn't been reached yet.
I'm personally SUPER excited about new Cone of Elements. Some things about it have been nerfed, but I think this new version is a lot of fun and has a ton of potential once the rest of the ELR is sitting on top of it. I really, really hope you all like it.
~ Konacon
Anything I toss out about this spell is currently still subject to change, so keep that in mind. However, at the moment the plan is for it to target creatures first and then move onto players afterwards if the maximum number of targets hasn't been reached yet.
I'm personally SUPER excited about new Cone of Elements. Some things about it have been nerfed, but I think this new version is a lot of fun and has a ton of potential once the rest of the ELR is sitting on top of it. I really, really hope you all like it.
~ Konacon
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 01:22 PM CDT
<7) Time Stop (950): This one sounds cool but also makes me think that it will be so cumbersome/complex to use that it won't actually get used. I guess we'll wait and see! Also, not trying to <be negative, but for all of the great ideas/suggestions I've seen over the years for our 50th level spell slot this one seems rather low on the list for me. If you are looking for a big bang <type of effect this might be better served via some sort of self-immolation that causes massive damage and stuns everything in the room for 20 seconds (at least this would remove a lot of the <potential complexity involved in setting this spell up). Possibly I'm missing some great applications/potential uses for how this spell could be used but that's my first impression. I'll keep <my hopes up for some of the other great suggestions that have been made in the past for the 550 slot.
I'm still waiting on an answer to how this spell will work when immunity/resistance comes into play. As described, the wizard's spells are delayed until the end of the effect. So if you have 1 monster that is affected and 1 that isn't, you and the affected monster stand "timestopped" while the other monster just goes to town. If you can target the non-affected monster and cast normally that resolves one question but raises another: What about non-targeted spells? If I cast ewave at the unaffected target does it go off and then apply RT to the timestopped target as well? Am I restricted from casting non-targeted spells? There are just a bunch of ways this spell could be impractical to use.
Also, that 1x per day limitation seems unwarranted. It's a 50 mana combat spell. That is not cheap!
But it is a very cool concept. I really like it. I just hope we can get some answers on how this will work. If immunities cause big problems it's probably going to go the way of "Stone fist" - cool concept, but no use for it.
~Taverkin
I'm still waiting on an answer to how this spell will work when immunity/resistance comes into play. As described, the wizard's spells are delayed until the end of the effect. So if you have 1 monster that is affected and 1 that isn't, you and the affected monster stand "timestopped" while the other monster just goes to town. If you can target the non-affected monster and cast normally that resolves one question but raises another: What about non-targeted spells? If I cast ewave at the unaffected target does it go off and then apply RT to the timestopped target as well? Am I restricted from casting non-targeted spells? There are just a bunch of ways this spell could be impractical to use.
Also, that 1x per day limitation seems unwarranted. It's a 50 mana combat spell. That is not cheap!
But it is a very cool concept. I really like it. I just hope we can get some answers on how this will work. If immunities cause big problems it's probably going to go the way of "Stone fist" - cool concept, but no use for it.
~Taverkin
DOUG
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 01:24 PM CDT
>>Also, that 1x per day limitation seems unwarranted. It's a 50 mana combat spell. That is not cheap!
I think you can cast it as long as you have mana. It's the 'use while disabled' STOP TIME command that's limited, I think.
I also would like to know about the 'impervious'.
Consider a lich, a destroyer and a siphon. Do all three get affected? I know the answer I'm a hopin' for.
Doug
I think you can cast it as long as you have mana. It's the 'use while disabled' STOP TIME command that's limited, I think.
I also would like to know about the 'impervious'.
Consider a lich, a destroyer and a siphon. Do all three get affected? I know the answer I'm a hopin' for.
Doug
RUFUSMORAY
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 01:25 PM CDT
The general consensus is sadly no Konacon. Especially that it's not as player friendly anymore. Wizards are already chaffing under the fact that Meteor Swarm is considered a completely wasted and useless spell because no one is a big enough jerk to hunt with it all the time. It's an isolated incident when someone casts it and the act is not well received by the populous.
This might be your baby spell, and I like the variable element factor... that excites me. It gives some RP to a wizard, I love that... but in general it becomes a nice interesting RP tool that player friendly players won't use. I don't use Gasp of Grave mostly for this reason.
If the intent is to make a spell that encourages people hunting in an area to group up... there should be positive reinforcement not negative.
You're right there are some super awesome parts of this to my mind... but the other problems are terrible. It's like getting a Ferrari body with a model-T engine.
Overall the feeling coming off this for now is this. ELR is like a restaurant.
We've been waiting all week to go out to the restaurant.
We get there and are told the appetizer will be great we'll love the sneak peek and it will tell us a lot about the meal.
Appetizer arrives and it is... disappointing to many and terrible to the rest.
We are promised the meal will be better and that the appetizer wasn't as bad as we think and is an acquired taste.
I'm trying to stay positive, I really am, but it's getting hard.
TANDL
ERYKK2
Re: 1035 vs 506
08/27/2015 01:49 PM CDT
<<Largely because the spell is six times as powerful and involves shooting a spell gap three times. (20->25, 25->30, and 30->35)>>
Sorry, but no. You're a semi, I'm a pure. My spells should be more powerful. You also shouldn't have spells that are better than my spells, of which, Bards have several.
Sorry, but no. You're a semi, I'm a pure. My spells should be more powerful. You also shouldn't have spells that are better than my spells, of which, Bards have several.
DEANSMITH
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 01:53 PM CDT
Here are a few more of my thoughts on these proposed changes:
502: This will be a welcome change.
506: I can agree with the cooldown when cast without spell knowledge, but right now I think that the cooldown on the self-cast version requires too much investment to mitigate. I have three suggestions for this spell: 1) I think that the ranks required should be reworked so that a result of -90 seconds may be achieved by around level 66. 2) Cap the cost while in cooldown at 24 mana. 3) For defensive utility, allow Haste to be invoked while in RT and have it only apply to any current RT you are in.
513: Good change. One Suggestion: Have this spell also provide physical/ranged AS for warmages.
515: I don't like the change and I can't really think of a way to salvage this spell. I would just suggest a new spell: Chain Element - Works only with bolts. Provides a chance to 3x/4x/5x strike with a bolt spell based on EMC when cast. Cost would for additional strikes would be 3 + 1/3 cost of bolt. Air lore could make it 1 + 1/3 cost of bolt.
518: Knew this was coming. It REALLY should be player friendly.
519: Insta-kill nerf is expected. I do have some questions. My biggest concern is that I nuke something with this and instead of immediately taking the target out of combat, it starts to then take action against me. Will creatures still attempt to put out the fire on themselves before taking another action? Don't get me wrong, the "improved" damage may be good thing, but the debilitation it provided was equally if not more important to me.
909: Cool concept. How long does self-cast tremors last?
925: This may be outside of the (already large) scope of this review, but I would like to see Wizards able to add "unique" flares to weapons. I'm not saying I want Greater Elemental Flares...but I WANT GREATER ELEMENTAL FLARES.
950: Extremely cool concept. Will have to wait and see how this makes it into game.
502: This will be a welcome change.
506: I can agree with the cooldown when cast without spell knowledge, but right now I think that the cooldown on the self-cast version requires too much investment to mitigate. I have three suggestions for this spell: 1) I think that the ranks required should be reworked so that a result of -90 seconds may be achieved by around level 66. 2) Cap the cost while in cooldown at 24 mana. 3) For defensive utility, allow Haste to be invoked while in RT and have it only apply to any current RT you are in.
513: Good change. One Suggestion: Have this spell also provide physical/ranged AS for warmages.
515: I don't like the change and I can't really think of a way to salvage this spell. I would just suggest a new spell: Chain Element - Works only with bolts. Provides a chance to 3x/4x/5x strike with a bolt spell based on EMC when cast. Cost would for additional strikes would be 3 + 1/3 cost of bolt. Air lore could make it 1 + 1/3 cost of bolt.
518: Knew this was coming. It REALLY should be player friendly.
519: Insta-kill nerf is expected. I do have some questions. My biggest concern is that I nuke something with this and instead of immediately taking the target out of combat, it starts to then take action against me. Will creatures still attempt to put out the fire on themselves before taking another action? Don't get me wrong, the "improved" damage may be good thing, but the debilitation it provided was equally if not more important to me.
909: Cool concept. How long does self-cast tremors last?
925: This may be outside of the (already large) scope of this review, but I would like to see Wizards able to add "unique" flares to weapons. I'm not saying I want Greater Elemental Flares...but I WANT GREATER ELEMENTAL FLARES.
950: Extremely cool concept. Will have to wait and see how this makes it into game.
KRAKII
Re: 1035 vs 506
08/27/2015 01:57 PM CDT
"Sorry, but no. You're a semi, I'm a pure. My spells should be more powerful. You also shouldn't have spells that are better than my spells, of which, Bards have several." -- ErykK2
Sorry, but no. You're comparing a Semi profession list/Tier2 spell power, to a Major Realm list/Tier2 spell power.
Direct comparison is absolutely valid.
.
Only pure-spellcasting Profession Base lists are more powerful, but Semi === Major is just right.
Sorry, but no. You're comparing a Semi profession list/Tier2 spell power, to a Major Realm list/Tier2 spell power.
Direct comparison is absolutely valid.
.
Only pure-spellcasting Profession Base lists are more powerful, but Semi === Major is just right.
ARCHSENEX
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:02 PM CDT
I'm also a little concerned on Time Stop. While it's intended to be used in a "Cast -> Cast more Spells" metthod, this is probably not the way it's going to play out or be useful. It would be much better to cast Meteor Swarm, Tremors, Immolation, Dark Catalyst, Grasp of the grave, or open Implosion (From Magical items from the last one of course), or any other DOT, and THEN cast time stop, to get multiple damage cycles that the monsters can't respond to. However, this also means any players who wander by are also dead....
I don't want this to become another really awesome cool spell that every new player is told they'll get in trouble with the GM's for casting (like Meteor Swarm)
I don't want this to become another really awesome cool spell that every new player is told they'll get in trouble with the GM's for casting (like Meteor Swarm)
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:16 PM CDT
<506: I can agree with the cooldown when cast without spell knowledge, but right now I think that the cooldown on the self-cast version requires too much investment to mitigate. I have three <suggestions for this spell: 1) I think that the ranks required should be reworked so that a result of -90 seconds may be achieved by around level 66. 2) Cap the cost while in cooldown at 24 <mana. 3) For defensive utility, allow Haste to be invoked while in RT and have it only apply to any current RT you are in.
It seems to me that we're looking at this from the perspective of how to arbitrarily add lore tie-ins rather than from the perspective of practical use. It's all well and good to establish level 66 as the point at which a wizard can reduce the cooldown, but in practice what does this mean for war mages?
First, consider that war mages are most effective at the low-mid range, before our poor weapon ROI causes even the best war mages to be rather underwhelming when compared to other available wizard specializations and especially when compared to semi and square weapon users. Applying benefits that only come to bear at the high end and only restore partial functionality is problematic because the spec was already appropriate at the low end and weak at the high end. Now it will be weak at the low end and weak at the high end. Who will want to play that class?
But also consider that the cooldown period is just plain cumbersome. Listen to what Estild said when asked what war mages are supposed to do during the cooldown period. "Selectively engage" easy targets? Cast spells? Nobody wants to interrupt the fun part of their hunt by introducing gimped filler. That is a fail design. Cooldowns are supposed to offer powerful bonuses, not just the base ability that justifies the spec in the first place. War mages need to be able to stand on their own without haste if haste is to become a cooldown.
<515: I don't like the change and I can't really think of a way to salvage this spell. I would just suggest a new spell: Chain Element - Works only with bolts. Provides a chance to 3x/4x/5x <strike with a bolt spell based on EMC when cast. Cost would for additional strikes would be 3 + 1/3 cost of bolt. Air lore could make it 1 + 1/3 cost of bolt.
As in the case of haste, putting a cooldown on what once was a base ability while simultaneously applying a drastic nerf is never going to be a popular move. Rapid fire is less critical to bolting mages than haste is to war mages, however, I am very disappointed that they were unable to find an acceptable full up-time speed boost to apply to bolt spells at the very least. It would have been fun and could have been balanced. It also could have addressed the fact that wizards are going to be using more mana than ever and will be more vulnerable than ever.
I still hold out hope for some variation of my rapid fire suggestion: standard duration (1200s + 60s per MjE rank), no re-prep mechanics, just a reduction in cast RT. My original idea had a formula that basically meant spells up to level 10 would be able to be reduced down to 1s RT by cap with training in MjE, while spells up to level 18 could be reduced down to 2s. But these bonuses would accrue incrementally such that a level 15 wizard would have a 2s RT with 901. Every 5 levels the next spell level would unlock the 1s RT reduction up to level 18 at cap. In addition, an additional second would be taken starting at level 1 spells beginning at level 55, capping at level 100 and level 10 spells. Then I added a flare chance for a multi-cast at no additional mana, strongly favoring lower level spells. So at level 15 the wizard would have the full 20% chance to proc multi-cast on 901, but you would have to be capped and max trained in EMC to realize the full 10% multi-cast rate on major shock/hurl boulder (with various thresholds along the way for other bolt spells).
Of course, this formula could easily be modified, applied in different ways, etc. I imagine as long as we retain a speed boost, but never allow it to reach 0s, and the spell gives something back it could be a viable compromise. The problem with the current GM proposal is that the only thing it gives back is the removal of re-prep mechanics, which I am glad they took from my idea! Thank you for that! Re-prep was seriously annoying and limiting.
What if rapid fire applied only to bolt spells and defensive spells and applied variable RT? And what if we combine it with the idea to consolidate bolt spells into groups? That really needs to happen anyway or how do we justify water mages? Sorry, you guys just get minor water and major cold! That's it and that's all!
I'll get back to you on this with a new proposal...
~Taverkin
It seems to me that we're looking at this from the perspective of how to arbitrarily add lore tie-ins rather than from the perspective of practical use. It's all well and good to establish level 66 as the point at which a wizard can reduce the cooldown, but in practice what does this mean for war mages?
First, consider that war mages are most effective at the low-mid range, before our poor weapon ROI causes even the best war mages to be rather underwhelming when compared to other available wizard specializations and especially when compared to semi and square weapon users. Applying benefits that only come to bear at the high end and only restore partial functionality is problematic because the spec was already appropriate at the low end and weak at the high end. Now it will be weak at the low end and weak at the high end. Who will want to play that class?
But also consider that the cooldown period is just plain cumbersome. Listen to what Estild said when asked what war mages are supposed to do during the cooldown period. "Selectively engage" easy targets? Cast spells? Nobody wants to interrupt the fun part of their hunt by introducing gimped filler. That is a fail design. Cooldowns are supposed to offer powerful bonuses, not just the base ability that justifies the spec in the first place. War mages need to be able to stand on their own without haste if haste is to become a cooldown.
<515: I don't like the change and I can't really think of a way to salvage this spell. I would just suggest a new spell: Chain Element - Works only with bolts. Provides a chance to 3x/4x/5x <strike with a bolt spell based on EMC when cast. Cost would for additional strikes would be 3 + 1/3 cost of bolt. Air lore could make it 1 + 1/3 cost of bolt.
As in the case of haste, putting a cooldown on what once was a base ability while simultaneously applying a drastic nerf is never going to be a popular move. Rapid fire is less critical to bolting mages than haste is to war mages, however, I am very disappointed that they were unable to find an acceptable full up-time speed boost to apply to bolt spells at the very least. It would have been fun and could have been balanced. It also could have addressed the fact that wizards are going to be using more mana than ever and will be more vulnerable than ever.
I still hold out hope for some variation of my rapid fire suggestion: standard duration (1200s + 60s per MjE rank), no re-prep mechanics, just a reduction in cast RT. My original idea had a formula that basically meant spells up to level 10 would be able to be reduced down to 1s RT by cap with training in MjE, while spells up to level 18 could be reduced down to 2s. But these bonuses would accrue incrementally such that a level 15 wizard would have a 2s RT with 901. Every 5 levels the next spell level would unlock the 1s RT reduction up to level 18 at cap. In addition, an additional second would be taken starting at level 1 spells beginning at level 55, capping at level 100 and level 10 spells. Then I added a flare chance for a multi-cast at no additional mana, strongly favoring lower level spells. So at level 15 the wizard would have the full 20% chance to proc multi-cast on 901, but you would have to be capped and max trained in EMC to realize the full 10% multi-cast rate on major shock/hurl boulder (with various thresholds along the way for other bolt spells).
Of course, this formula could easily be modified, applied in different ways, etc. I imagine as long as we retain a speed boost, but never allow it to reach 0s, and the spell gives something back it could be a viable compromise. The problem with the current GM proposal is that the only thing it gives back is the removal of re-prep mechanics, which I am glad they took from my idea! Thank you for that! Re-prep was seriously annoying and limiting.
What if rapid fire applied only to bolt spells and defensive spells and applied variable RT? And what if we combine it with the idea to consolidate bolt spells into groups? That really needs to happen anyway or how do we justify water mages? Sorry, you guys just get minor water and major cold! That's it and that's all!
I'll get back to you on this with a new proposal...
~Taverkin
KEITHOBAD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:26 PM CDT
<506 - I can agree with the cooldown when cast without spell knowledge, but right now I think that the cooldown on the self-cast version requires too much investment to mitigate. I have three suggestions for this spell: 1) I think that the ranks required should be reworked so that a result of -90 seconds may be achieved by around level 66. 2) Cap the cost while in cooldown at 24 mana. 3) For defensive utility, allow Haste to be invoked while in RT and have it only apply to any current RT you are in. --Deansmith on Haste
Simu, hire this person! All three ideas are definite improvements. The currently proposed earth lore costs are coo-coo bananas as far as I'm concerned.
<I'm still waiting on an answer to how this spell will work when immunity/resistance comes into play. --Taverkin on Timestop
Estild did answer you. I also interpreted that 1x/day thing as referring specifically to using it while incapacitated. Kinda like how the GoS escape sigil works.
<Outside of storyline bosses, very few, if any, creatures will be immune to the spell. It's going to be an extremely powerful spell, offensively and defensively. --Estild on Timestop
<The option was to either have the spell be a disabler or have it be lethal. It was typically only cast by wizards who specifically trained for the lethality, so we decided to go with that approach. However, now instead of it just being lethal for fire mages, it's lethal for all wizards, yet fire mages can make it even stronger. --Estild on immolation
It's already having it's lethality down-tweaked, I'm not sure it ALSO needs it's rt completely removed. Why not lessen the non-incinerated damage (ie: if it's not fatal, it doesn't do huge damage, but does do rt) so that it makes a strong opener but isn't great for spamming? That gives 515 a nice niche to grow into as a follow-up. As is, I don't really see why fire mages would want to ever use 515 over 519?
<Well, the base is 5%, so at 60 EL:E ranks, it's -9% to Evade, Block, and Parry chances. --Estild on Tremors
Oops, I somehow missed that part. Krakii also mentioned this correction, my bad! I still think something like seed-8 would be the sweet spot, but 5% base is something.
KEITHOBAD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:37 PM CDT
Oops, one more thing I wanted to add <insert complaint about lack of editing capability here>:
The way haste is currently proposed is basically the same as 1min up 1 down. Instead it's two minutes up (for 1.5x the normal cost) and two minutes down.
Why are you trying to make it so difficult on low-mid level warmages? Putting the cooldowns so long and the mitigation so expensive will turn the subclass into an exercise in frustration.
My character was always a jack-of-all-trades kinda fighter so I'm not opposed to throwing the occasional (or in the case, 2/3 of the time!!!) bolt but for people who were really weapon focused this is a total bummer.
OBSERVER
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:38 PM CDT
I say they should just make a new class out of War Mages. Lower physical skill costs but keep them capped at 1x, lower hindrance, remove the haste penalties, and drop the 900's circle from their arsenal. Add in a few War Mage only CMANs and you're golden.
On a far more practical note: I think it would be nice if Combat Maneuver training could further reduce the recovery time for haste. Something like -1 second for every 10 ranks?
Also, was a stamina penalty ever considered for 506? Why not reduce the cooldown penalties associated with the spell, but add a stamina cost for swinging while under the effect? Hell, you could make it be optional so that you could choose when to apply the stamina cost to lower the increased mana cost and/or roundtime.
On a far more practical note: I think it would be nice if Combat Maneuver training could further reduce the recovery time for haste. Something like -1 second for every 10 ranks?
Also, was a stamina penalty ever considered for 506? Why not reduce the cooldown penalties associated with the spell, but add a stamina cost for swinging while under the effect? Hell, you could make it be optional so that you could choose when to apply the stamina cost to lower the increased mana cost and/or roundtime.
KEITHOBAD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:42 PM CDT
<Also, was a stamina penalty ever considered for 506? Why not reduce the cooldown penalties associated with the spell, but add a stamina cost for swinging while under the effect? Hell, you could make it be optional so that you could choose when to apply the stamina cost to lower the increased mana cost and/or roundtime.
Um.. do you know how many times a warmage typically swings? Adding a stamina cost per swing, even at only 1 stam, is a complete non-starter. It can take me 5-15 swings per creature!
ARCHSENEX
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:45 PM CDT
>>Um.. do you know how many times a warmage typically swings? Adding a stamina cost per swing, even at only 1 stam, is a complete non-starter. It can take me 5-15 swings per creature!
What about a 30 Point flat stamina cost during the cooldown rather than the mana cost? (Or even a 5/10/20/40 expansion). That would make the spell almost unusable for classes that need their stamina for other boosting effects, but might allow the warmage to run it for a full hunt's duration. I suppose this also means that a pure mage could run it for a few minutes, but you wouldn't be able to have perpetual hunter builds (farmers) use it.
Which I imagine is part of the desire, to get rid of characters with continual uptime hunting (although Wizards are towards the bottom of the list for viability).
What about a 30 Point flat stamina cost during the cooldown rather than the mana cost? (Or even a 5/10/20/40 expansion). That would make the spell almost unusable for classes that need their stamina for other boosting effects, but might allow the warmage to run it for a full hunt's duration. I suppose this also means that a pure mage could run it for a few minutes, but you wouldn't be able to have perpetual hunter builds (farmers) use it.
Which I imagine is part of the desire, to get rid of characters with continual uptime hunting (although Wizards are towards the bottom of the list for viability).
KIRKC
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:47 PM CDT
This change doesn't just affect warmages, it also affects those that group. My wizard is very fun and I enjoy him immensely. I also enjoy the grouping relationship of my wizard with my warrior, rogue, bard, etc. I run them together, as a team, and I have fun doing it that way. If I had a friend that was on at the same time as myself, I would do the same thing, a team. What you are doing is discouraging the team concept when it comes to hasting group members. Is this what you are trying to eliminate? Do you not want people like myself to have two accounts with characters that I enjoy playing together? Hell, why don't you eliminate Kai's triumph from benefitting group members? Song of luck? Why is it that haste is the big culprit to all that is wrong and not the other group beneficial spells?
I really think someone up there has decided that they don't like the way this works and wants to change it for their own personal desires. If that is the case, go for it. Just know that changes do have consequences. I love this game, I don't want to go to something else. We are begging you, for our sake and possibly Gemstone as a whole, to take your time on this and make sure that it all equals out. I am tired of playing games that go under because game representatives make bad decisions for all the wrong reasons. Some of us play for the combat and merchant events. Some play for the role playing. Make sure someone who is a combat fiend is looking over this and not some role player. No offense to the role players, but Haste affects combat.
I really think someone up there has decided that they don't like the way this works and wants to change it for their own personal desires. If that is the case, go for it. Just know that changes do have consequences. I love this game, I don't want to go to something else. We are begging you, for our sake and possibly Gemstone as a whole, to take your time on this and make sure that it all equals out. I am tired of playing games that go under because game representatives make bad decisions for all the wrong reasons. Some of us play for the combat and merchant events. Some play for the role playing. Make sure someone who is a combat fiend is looking over this and not some role player. No offense to the role players, but Haste affects combat.
VANKRASN39
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:52 PM CDT
>It can take me 5-15 swings per creature!
Why would you want to play a warmage at all then? Sounds horribly inefficient in its current form.
ERYKK2
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:55 PM CDT
<<Also, was a stamina penalty ever considered for 506? Why not reduce the cooldown penalties associated with the spell, but add a stamina cost for swinging while under the effect? Hell, you could make it be optional so that you could choose when to apply the stamina cost to lower the increased mana cost and/or roundtime.>>
I would like to see a 6/12/18/24 progression or a flat 12 stamina cost to renew 506 during the cooldown. Both would be limiting factors that I would accept. It still hits low level mages hard due to 1x PF.
I would like to see a 6/12/18/24 progression or a flat 12 stamina cost to renew 506 during the cooldown. Both would be limiting factors that I would accept. It still hits low level mages hard due to 1x PF.
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:58 PM CDT
Revised Rapid Fire Proposal:
515 - Rapid Fire
Duration: 1200s + 60s per MjE rank
- No re-prep mechanics.
- Base RT reduction = -1s applied to all bolt spells, exception: cone of elements.
- Defensive spells = 0 RT
Additional RT reduction...
This is where it gets a little tricky. If things remain as is, we could do something like either a general skill training requirement (EMC, MjE ranks, etc.) that applies an additional -1s RT to bolt spells up to a certain level. The problem being that if we do this, some elements are left out in the cold. For instance, a cutoff of level 5 would mean water and air each get a couple of spells with 1s RT, but earth and fire get none. That doesn't seem fair.
On the other hand, if we combine this proposal with the idea to consolidate bolts as follows...
901 - minor elemental bolt
906 - elemental bolt
910 - major elemental bolt
We can find places for the oddball non-elemental bolts and ball spells as well, since we're freeing up spell slots. But let's continue with the rapid fire proposal for now...
...Now we have an easier path to walk. So how about this?
Assuming a baseline of 1x lore training, the wizard is able to further reduce the RT of minor elemental bolt for his chosen element by 1 second at 15 ranks in lore. So a level 15 wizard with access to rapid fire and 1x in air lore will be able to cast minor elemental bolt: air with 1s RT, and minor elemental bolt of any other element with 2s RT.
At 50 ranks in lore, the wizard unlocks an additional -1s from 906-elemental bolt of his chosen element.
At 200 ranks in lore, the wizard unlocks an additional -1s from major elemental bolt.
So you could spread the love around and unlock all mid-range bolts from all elements at 1s and 2s RT for major bolts, or go the specialist route and unlock 1s RT for major bolts of your chosen element and 2s RT for all other bolts.
Next, the multi-cast flare. This was the original proposal, which I still like:
The percentage chance to flare functions as follows: [EMC skill/((spell level * 10)/3.15)] with the result rounded normally and capped as follows: maximum 20% - 2% per spell level, minimum 10%. A few examples...
At full 2x EMC at cap (302 skill), the wizard will receive the full 10% flare rate on spells up to level 10. Meanwhile, casting immolate produces a 5% flare rate.
The following are the EMC rank thresholds corresponding to a 10% flare rate for all bolt spells:
Minor shock = 7 EMC ranks (35 skill) or 20% at 13 EMC ranks (62 skill)
Minor water = 21 EMC ranks (93 skill) or 16% at 48 ranks (148 skill)
Minor acid = 31 EMC ranks (123 skill) or 14% at 72 ranks (172 skill)
Tonis Bolt = 51 EMC ranks (151 skill) or 12% at 83 ranks (183 skill)
Minor fire = 81 EMC ranks (181 skill) all spells above level 5 are capped at 10% flare rate.
Major cold = 112 EMC ranks (212 skill)
Major fire = 142 EMC ranks (242 skill)
boulder/mjr Shock = 202 EMC ranks (302 skill)
NOTE: There is no restriction on flares producing additional flares! Thus a cast of minor shock with a 20% flare rate has a 4% chance to produce a second cast at no additional cost and a 0.8% chance to produce a third additional cast. Meanwhile a 10% flare rate spell like capped 2x EMC major shock has a 1% chance to produce 2 additional casts!
But we would need to adjust for the new bolt spells.
So, let's say that at 7 ranks EMC, minor bolt has a 20% flare rate.
At 81 EMC ranks, elemental bolt has a 15% flare rate
At 202 EMC ranks, major elemental bolt has a 10% flare rate.
Since this benefit is tied to EMC, the flare rate applies to all elements, not just the ones the caster is trained in.
So, across the board this new version strongly favors lower level bolts both with the training requirements and the benefits they provide. You can get your strongest bolts down to 1s, but only for one element and only with max lore dedication at cap. But getting your low and mid-range bolts down to 1s is much easier to do in the course of normal training and for the low level bolt it's basically a gimme to get 1s RT from one element with the 20% multi-cast flare very early on.
What do you guys think? Feel free to add to or change anything about this proposal. Whatever we can do to find a workable alternative that everyone can live with.
~Taverkin
515 - Rapid Fire
Duration: 1200s + 60s per MjE rank
- No re-prep mechanics.
- Base RT reduction = -1s applied to all bolt spells, exception: cone of elements.
- Defensive spells = 0 RT
Additional RT reduction...
This is where it gets a little tricky. If things remain as is, we could do something like either a general skill training requirement (EMC, MjE ranks, etc.) that applies an additional -1s RT to bolt spells up to a certain level. The problem being that if we do this, some elements are left out in the cold. For instance, a cutoff of level 5 would mean water and air each get a couple of spells with 1s RT, but earth and fire get none. That doesn't seem fair.
On the other hand, if we combine this proposal with the idea to consolidate bolts as follows...
901 - minor elemental bolt
906 - elemental bolt
910 - major elemental bolt
We can find places for the oddball non-elemental bolts and ball spells as well, since we're freeing up spell slots. But let's continue with the rapid fire proposal for now...
...Now we have an easier path to walk. So how about this?
Assuming a baseline of 1x lore training, the wizard is able to further reduce the RT of minor elemental bolt for his chosen element by 1 second at 15 ranks in lore. So a level 15 wizard with access to rapid fire and 1x in air lore will be able to cast minor elemental bolt: air with 1s RT, and minor elemental bolt of any other element with 2s RT.
At 50 ranks in lore, the wizard unlocks an additional -1s from 906-elemental bolt of his chosen element.
At 200 ranks in lore, the wizard unlocks an additional -1s from major elemental bolt.
So you could spread the love around and unlock all mid-range bolts from all elements at 1s and 2s RT for major bolts, or go the specialist route and unlock 1s RT for major bolts of your chosen element and 2s RT for all other bolts.
Next, the multi-cast flare. This was the original proposal, which I still like:
The percentage chance to flare functions as follows: [EMC skill/((spell level * 10)/3.15)] with the result rounded normally and capped as follows: maximum 20% - 2% per spell level, minimum 10%. A few examples...
At full 2x EMC at cap (302 skill), the wizard will receive the full 10% flare rate on spells up to level 10. Meanwhile, casting immolate produces a 5% flare rate.
The following are the EMC rank thresholds corresponding to a 10% flare rate for all bolt spells:
Minor shock = 7 EMC ranks (35 skill) or 20% at 13 EMC ranks (62 skill)
Minor water = 21 EMC ranks (93 skill) or 16% at 48 ranks (148 skill)
Minor acid = 31 EMC ranks (123 skill) or 14% at 72 ranks (172 skill)
Tonis Bolt = 51 EMC ranks (151 skill) or 12% at 83 ranks (183 skill)
Minor fire = 81 EMC ranks (181 skill) all spells above level 5 are capped at 10% flare rate.
Major cold = 112 EMC ranks (212 skill)
Major fire = 142 EMC ranks (242 skill)
boulder/mjr Shock = 202 EMC ranks (302 skill)
NOTE: There is no restriction on flares producing additional flares! Thus a cast of minor shock with a 20% flare rate has a 4% chance to produce a second cast at no additional cost and a 0.8% chance to produce a third additional cast. Meanwhile a 10% flare rate spell like capped 2x EMC major shock has a 1% chance to produce 2 additional casts!
But we would need to adjust for the new bolt spells.
So, let's say that at 7 ranks EMC, minor bolt has a 20% flare rate.
At 81 EMC ranks, elemental bolt has a 15% flare rate
At 202 EMC ranks, major elemental bolt has a 10% flare rate.
Since this benefit is tied to EMC, the flare rate applies to all elements, not just the ones the caster is trained in.
So, across the board this new version strongly favors lower level bolts both with the training requirements and the benefits they provide. You can get your strongest bolts down to 1s, but only for one element and only with max lore dedication at cap. But getting your low and mid-range bolts down to 1s is much easier to do in the course of normal training and for the low level bolt it's basically a gimme to get 1s RT from one element with the 20% multi-cast flare very early on.
What do you guys think? Feel free to add to or change anything about this proposal. Whatever we can do to find a workable alternative that everyone can live with.
~Taverkin
OBSERVER
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:58 PM CDT
>What about a 30 Point flat stamina cost during the cooldown rather than the mana cost? (Or even a 5/10/20/40 expansion). That would make the spell almost unusable for classes that need their stamina for other boosting effects, but might allow the warmage to run it for a full hunt's duration. I suppose this also means that a pure mage could run it for a few minutes, but you wouldn't be able to have perpetual hunter builds (farmers) use it.
However you wanted to do it, the idea would be to allow the use of a stamina cost to allow for more frequent use of haste, but to tie it so that it primarily benefits War Mages. Maybe tie the cost to landing a killing blow on a creature with a weapon. You expend stamina and the Haste downtime is reduced. It wouldn't completely mitigate the penalty, but provide a lessened version for those choosing to use physical attacks while under the effect of haste.
Hell, you could simply tie a reduction in the haste penalty to a set amount of weapon ranks. It makes sense you'd be more fit the more you trained with weapons Could regular wizards make use of this too? Sure, but it'll cost them 1xing a weapon.
However you wanted to do it, the idea would be to allow the use of a stamina cost to allow for more frequent use of haste, but to tie it so that it primarily benefits War Mages. Maybe tie the cost to landing a killing blow on a creature with a weapon. You expend stamina and the Haste downtime is reduced. It wouldn't completely mitigate the penalty, but provide a lessened version for those choosing to use physical attacks while under the effect of haste.
Hell, you could simply tie a reduction in the haste penalty to a set amount of weapon ranks. It makes sense you'd be more fit the more you trained with weapons Could regular wizards make use of this too? Sure, but it'll cost them 1xing a weapon.
VANKRASN39
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 02:58 PM CDT
>Still waiting on the WHY for 506...
easy, haste bots are too common
TGO01
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 03:01 PM CDT
>easy, haste bots are too common
They nerfed an entire profession because some people used their wizard to spell up others?
Well that makes sense. I take back my previous rant.
They nerfed an entire profession because some people used their wizard to spell up others?
Well that makes sense. I take back my previous rant.
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 03:05 PM CDT
<Estild did answer you. I also interpreted that 1x/day thing as referring specifically to using it while incapacitated. Kinda like how the GoS escape sigil works.
He did say that immunity would be rare. He did not explain what happens when a monster is immune to this spell. That's a very important question to me personally because I hunt the scatter, where 2 out of 5 monsters are almost certain to be immune to the effects of timestop.
Maybe I need to re-read. I didn't notice anything about a "use while incapacitated" effect. I understood it to mean that the spell is limited to 1x per day plus air lore benefit and that's that?
~Taverkin
He did say that immunity would be rare. He did not explain what happens when a monster is immune to this spell. That's a very important question to me personally because I hunt the scatter, where 2 out of 5 monsters are almost certain to be immune to the effects of timestop.
Maybe I need to re-read. I didn't notice anything about a "use while incapacitated" effect. I understood it to mean that the spell is limited to 1x per day plus air lore benefit and that's that?
~Taverkin
GS4-ESTILD
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 03:08 PM CDT
| Taverkin |
| Maybe I need to re-read. I didn't notice anything about a "use while incapacitated" effect. I understood it to mean that the spell is limited to 1x per day plus air lore benefit and that's that? |
The spell can be activated while incapacitated. You can use it once per day or more with additional lore ranks.
GameMaster Estild
KRAKII
Re: Upcoming Spell Changes
08/27/2015 03:09 PM CDT
From a design standpoint, though, you should never get something for free. 0s RT should not have been possible (as I said in my tangent post).
The problem isn't so much any given character (like a Wizard). It's all six of them, all jacking in their commands at that speed.
(And no, your paper tiger Bard group can only get to -3. Ever. Max.)
.
Another possible ameliorative: don't have the cast-during-cooldown affect the mana cost, have it affect the RT. Cast during the 1st cooldown, you get +1s added back in. Cast during the 3rd cooldown, you get +3s added back in.
The kicker is that you keep calculating the RT reduction out, by flat second reduction (not percentage), for whatever your net skills are.
A Wizard using a small weapon like a shortsword may be able to stay at -1 for two or three or even four consecutive casts, because he's getting -7s net, and even adding back 3 or 4 from cooldown casting means he's still at 0 or 1.
The same Wizard using a claidhmore or lance may see only his first or second cast be at 0 or 1, and then the rest start creeping up.
(Although honestly, I'm fine with making a cooldown cast cost 2x the mana == 12.)
The problem isn't so much any given character (like a Wizard). It's all six of them, all jacking in their commands at that speed.
(And no, your paper tiger Bard group can only get to -3. Ever. Max.)
.
Another possible ameliorative: don't have the cast-during-cooldown affect the mana cost, have it affect the RT. Cast during the 1st cooldown, you get +1s added back in. Cast during the 3rd cooldown, you get +3s added back in.
The kicker is that you keep calculating the RT reduction out, by flat second reduction (not percentage), for whatever your net skills are.
A Wizard using a small weapon like a shortsword may be able to stay at -1 for two or three or even four consecutive casts, because he's getting -7s net, and even adding back 3 or 4 from cooldown casting means he's still at 0 or 1.
The same Wizard using a claidhmore or lance may see only his first or second cast be at 0 or 1, and then the rest start creeping up.
(Although honestly, I'm fine with making a cooldown cast cost 2x the mana == 12.)
