Stop the classism!
Something I've noticed for along time and never took the time to voice an opinion on is finally being brought to light.
Every year, at all the fun merchants, lots of 4x gear comes out. Sometimes, the gear has other special properties, like fusion. This brings me to the REASON I am going to talk material. With Fusion now noticeably more difficult to enchant, the fact that the only standard 4x bow material is ruic is seriously unfair to archers. I don't know what genius decided to make the penalties for ruic, but they were an evil genius. -60 penalty to enchant. Hardest bow material there is, tied with sephwir and and wyrwood I believe. Meanwhile, everyone else gets their weapons and shields made from friendly metals like vultite and mithril, or standard leather for armors. It's not just fusion either, but like any kind of 4x bow off the shelf. Pretty much always gonna be ruic for that even +20. Mossbark has a 0, and is +15...too much trouble to make mossbark bows with an extra enchant though for off the shelf merchant items (despite 4x mithril fusion shields as an example). What this amounts to is that ONLY archers suffer this terrible penalty to improving their gear on similar items that all other styles of attack can get w/o the ridiculous material penalties. It's blatant discrimination, and it needs to end. Either respec ruic or get rid of it or make a new 4x wood. If you feel archery is still too OP despite our auto "5% you just randomly miss no matter what" once upon a time nerf, then...no, you know what? Just no...please fix this.
-Arshwikk
ARSHWIKK
GS4-AULIS
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/17/2017 11:10 PM CST
Many times when GM's make items for shops they tend to go with what materials they like the look and description of. For many, it's not just about the mechanics of said item and material, but what looks pretty or whatever description they're going for in their imagination when creating the items. I know for me, personally, there's been a lot of times I'll take a normally lower enchant material, just because I like the look of it, and spruce it up to be pretty AND change the enchant of it to 4x. I've definitely created lots of ranged weapons that weren't just made from ruic. Even auction-quality ones when I get a chance.
I definitely wouldn't call it a conspiracy specifically against archers, however.
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
I definitely wouldn't call it a conspiracy specifically against archers, however.
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
ARSHWIKK
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/17/2017 11:28 PM CST
It doesn't need to be a conspiracy, it's an inherent flaw. You totally explained exactly why too, "For many, it's not just about the mechanics of said item and material, but what looks pretty or whatever description they're going for in their imagination when creating the items.". Yeah, so you end up producing an item comparative to other weapon classes with similar properties that, aside from looks, is also -60 to enchant in because you aren't thinking mechanics when you design it? Fair to you. Not the buyer who does want to enchant it. There is absolutely no reason for ruic to be -60 either. No other material in game with an otherwise standard enchant property has such a penalty. I mean, rolaren, which (though the system is not implemented) is special because it is strong has only a -40. Ruic is not rare, cursed, naturally flaring, sancted...NOTHING. Sephwir has a -60 and it's 5x and heavy sighted.
Not a conspiracy, a clear oversight...OR a jerk move and it IS a conspiracy.
Like I said, please do something about this.
-Arshwikk
GS4-AULIS
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/18/2017 12:10 AM CST
Nothing I can do about it myself. That's for the DEV team to decide. But, there's actually a historical and RP reason for ruic to be that way from a mechanical standpoint, specifically. If you read the actual description of the wood it specifically states:
"The ruic tree is usually found in southern forests, with mild climates and dependable precipitation. It is a tall, wide-boughed tree with a thick canopy, and produces a superior, reddish-gold wood for use in making bows. While it carries a good magical influence for that use, it is not generally used for other magical articles because of its tendency to 'snap', i.e. send a current -- or backlash -- of magic back through the individual casting the charge. The general consensus is that the energy released from the bow through the shaft as the arrows leaves it prohibits a 'snap' from occurring with bows made from the wood."
So, following that, there is a world design reason behind why ruic is harder to enchant.
I'm not arguing against a potential change or you. Just trying to give you a glimpse into possible reasons it was built that way the many years ago the whole material system was designed or upgraded.
Personally, I'd love to see a whole BIG REVIEW of all the materials and their bonuses and negatives. I'd love for imflass to mean something more than just "this is super light." I'd love for mithril to mean more than "this material is a very good conductor of magic". It'd be super neat to see all the various materials mean more from a mechanical standpoint.
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
"The ruic tree is usually found in southern forests, with mild climates and dependable precipitation. It is a tall, wide-boughed tree with a thick canopy, and produces a superior, reddish-gold wood for use in making bows. While it carries a good magical influence for that use, it is not generally used for other magical articles because of its tendency to 'snap', i.e. send a current -- or backlash -- of magic back through the individual casting the charge. The general consensus is that the energy released from the bow through the shaft as the arrows leaves it prohibits a 'snap' from occurring with bows made from the wood."
So, following that, there is a world design reason behind why ruic is harder to enchant.
I'm not arguing against a potential change or you. Just trying to give you a glimpse into possible reasons it was built that way the many years ago the whole material system was designed or upgraded.
Personally, I'd love to see a whole BIG REVIEW of all the materials and their bonuses and negatives. I'd love for imflass to mean something more than just "this is super light." I'd love for mithril to mean more than "this material is a very good conductor of magic". It'd be super neat to see all the various materials mean more from a mechanical standpoint.
~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er
KRAKII
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/18/2017 08:41 AM CST
"Personally, I'd love to see a whole BIG REVIEW of all the materials and their bonuses and negatives. I'd love for imflass to mean something more than just "this is super light." I'd love for mithril to mean more than "this material is a very good conductor of magic". It'd be super neat to see all the various materials mean more from a mechanical standpoint." -- Aulis
PREACH IT, Brother!
(And I'm not 100% convinced that imflass benefits from its lightness all the time, either.)
PREACH IT, Brother!
(And I'm not 100% convinced that imflass benefits from its lightness all the time, either.)
GS4-NAOS
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/18/2017 09:38 AM CST
<< I don't know what genius decided to make the penalties for ruic, but they were an evil genius. -60 penalty to enchant. >>
Hello! The attributes of materials are generally tied into the lore backing that material. When I assigned the enchanting difficulties for materials, I primarily considered the properties and descriptions from the materials document with some consideration for any history or reputation a particular material may have held. Ruic has some interesting magical flavor that excludes its use as a material for rune staves
<< Mossbark has a 0, and is +15...too much trouble to make mossbark bows with an extra enchant though for off the shelf merchant items (despite 4x mithril fusion shields as an example). >>
Let us turn this idea around: why not buy the mossbark bow at +15 and slap that extra +5 on it yourself? It is a minor enchantment project, so it should be of trivial concern and relatively minor time investment. I like to sell "pre-enchanted" stuff in my shops on occasion, but I typically do not do so because I want wizards (and low level characters) to have options, either for direct use or for enchanting as minor projects (some wizards do lots of minor projects.)
<< Like I said, please do something about this. >>
So, we could review the enchanting difficulty for materials in certain contexts. It is worth pointing out that the Ranged Weapons style of combat is the only style of combat that allows a player to trivially obtain the equivalent of +50/10x gear. Enchanting a bow up to +30 is more significant than enchanting, say, a longsword to the same level. Perhaps in a comprehensive review of an enchanting system, we can reconsider ALL of these aspects and how appropriate they are in today's Elanthia.
--
Naos
Hello! The attributes of materials are generally tied into the lore backing that material. When I assigned the enchanting difficulties for materials, I primarily considered the properties and descriptions from the materials document with some consideration for any history or reputation a particular material may have held. Ruic has some interesting magical flavor that excludes its use as a material for rune staves
<< Mossbark has a 0, and is +15...too much trouble to make mossbark bows with an extra enchant though for off the shelf merchant items (despite 4x mithril fusion shields as an example). >>
Let us turn this idea around: why not buy the mossbark bow at +15 and slap that extra +5 on it yourself? It is a minor enchantment project, so it should be of trivial concern and relatively minor time investment. I like to sell "pre-enchanted" stuff in my shops on occasion, but I typically do not do so because I want wizards (and low level characters) to have options, either for direct use or for enchanting as minor projects (some wizards do lots of minor projects.)
<< Like I said, please do something about this. >>
So, we could review the enchanting difficulty for materials in certain contexts. It is worth pointing out that the Ranged Weapons style of combat is the only style of combat that allows a player to trivially obtain the equivalent of +50/10x gear. Enchanting a bow up to +30 is more significant than enchanting, say, a longsword to the same level. Perhaps in a comprehensive review of an enchanting system, we can reconsider ALL of these aspects and how appropriate they are in today's Elanthia.
--
Naos
GS4-NAOS
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/18/2017 09:48 AM CST
<< Ruic has some interesting magical flavor that excludes its use as a material for rune staves... >>
I lost the end of that sentence somehow. It read: and this aspect was considered when assigning the difficulty for ruic. It does not play well with magic, generally speaking, and this interferes with the enchanting process.
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Naos
I lost the end of that sentence somehow. It read: and this aspect was considered when assigning the difficulty for ruic. It does not play well with magic, generally speaking, and this interferes with the enchanting process.
--
Naos
WORDMAGIC
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/18/2017 09:52 AM CST
>>Naos post
Fire emoji
~Amanda, player of Treeva
Fire emoji
~Amanda, player of Treeva
KRAKII
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/18/2017 10:46 AM CST
OR, we could view Ruic's inherent lashing out as the possibility of having Enchant NOT be possible, but a built-in extra chance to flare when used as a runestaff... :)
CLUNK24963
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/18/2017 06:12 PM CST
>>It'd be super neat to see all the various materials mean more from a mechanical standpoint.
Do you mean things like: Invar : naturally 4x +2 enchant when used by a dwarf? +2 for others?
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
Do you mean things like: Invar : naturally 4x +2 enchant when used by a dwarf? +2 for others?
Clunk
(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)
EREK
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/20/2017 09:36 AM CST
>>Ranged Weapons style of combat is the only style of combat that allows a player to trivially obtain the equivalent of +50/10x gear
I was going to point out the same thing. I'd be careful with this one, since we get the benefit of having a base 6x weapon, then the next 4x can contain a chosen flare, based on how you obtain the ammo. That base weapon can also be sighted without having to take the flare into account, thus being ultimately cheaper to customize than a swung weapon.
(Ammo management is a different issue of course.)
I was going to point out the same thing. I'd be careful with this one, since we get the benefit of having a base 6x weapon, then the next 4x can contain a chosen flare, based on how you obtain the ammo. That base weapon can also be sighted without having to take the flare into account, thus being ultimately cheaper to customize than a swung weapon.
(Ammo management is a different issue of course.)
GS4-NAOS
Re: Archer lives matter (Material issues)
12/21/2017 10:17 AM CST
Since fusion and enchanting were referenced in this discussion, I figured bringing attention to this here would be appreciated: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Game%20Design%20Discussions/Fusion/view/402
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Naos
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Naos
