I had some notes from the ELR I didn't post at the time. These can apply to any spell, though.
First suggestion - Why not re-introduce prep times for certain spells as an alternative to cooldown? It could be a flat 10 sec or the time could go up if the spell is used too frequently. Giving a few spells a prep time, even just 5 or 10 sec, would change hunting dynamics a bit. The prep time I'm envisioning doesn't train away like it used to, but
Second suggestion - Can some spells have a longer cast RT than 3 sec? For example, if a spell is more or less the equivalent of MSTRIKE, would it make sense to give it a longer RT?
My third note is to suggest giving every spell a 30 sec cooldown. This is probably overkill but I thought it was an interesting way to discourage spamming a single spell and encourage variety. Unfortunately I don't think some class builds have enough variety to support it.
KANDOR
DRUMPEL
Re: Cooldowns, roundtimes, & prep times
01/04/2016 10:50 PM CST
You just want to kill a wizard, don't you?
The old prep time on spells, when I first trained a wizard, it felt awesome to see that 10 second prep time when I learned a new spell. I remember when I trained to Minor Fire for the first time. 10 seconds to prep the spell...the anticipation of the power behind it....Only to unleash the hell upon the poor kobold unlucky enough to taste my new ball of death! It was glorious! Then as I progressed levels my powerful spells I learned a few levels before only took me 5 seconds to prep and the basic spells I first started with now had no prep time. The world was my oyster!
In all seriousness, I felt like I earned something back in the day. It was awesome, but.... After having played so long without prep times (not that I'd have any based on how they used to work) I would feel hindered. Disconnected from my ability to hunt. If the old system came back, I think it would really tick people off to have to wait 10 seconds to prep a like level spell...so you're pretty much standing there with your finger up your nose if you can't swing a weapon. Years back wizards trained sword/board, it was the norm for the game. You could take potshots at things while your prep time ticked away. You don't get the same luxury today because of the training path changes with runestaffs for pures.
For having longer cast times - it could be a killer of a thing to wizards specifically. If things are really hectic, I rely on my spells to put targets prone (tremors, call wind or ewave) and then follow up with Cone of Lightning (or elements, whatever they're calling these days). Tacking on extra cast time for any of these spells leaves a poor wizard very vulnerable in creature heavy areas. We can't take hits like squares and some semis can. The defensive spells we have don't really help if you have no other way to defend yourself because you're caught in a longer cast RT.
As for a spell cooldown - it could be something for very high end spells that deals out mass amounts of damage, but normal hunting spells could really put you in a bad spot. Go out and encounter a creature, I cast 904 - creature doesn't die and isn't stunned. I cast 909 and follow up with 906 - creature is stunned and prone. I cast 907 - creature is dead (12 seconds have passed since my initial cast of 904).
Soon as the first creature was killed a new one walks in. I cast 904 - denied, still in cooldown for 15 seconds. I cast 410 - creature is pinned. I cast 906 - still in cooldown for 15 seconds. I cast 910 - creature is stunned.
New creature walks in!
I cast 410 - still in cooldown for 21 seconds!
I cast 909 - still in cooldown for 9 seconds!
I cast 904 - still in cooldown for 6 seconds!
I cast 510 - creature avoids, DS too high!
Creature attacks - maneuver attack! Hit and knocked down, stunned for 2 rounds.
Creature that was stunned is up and my wizard's life comes to and end because staple hunting spells are locked out because of a cooldown.
Granted you only suggested 30 seconds, but I see any kind of cooldown on normal hunting spells to have a very negative impact on a pure. This isn't a graphical MMO where you can easily see what abilities are up and quickly click on them. It doesn't play like any current MMO and it shouldn't be designed to behave like one. I don't have a hotkey GUI on my screen to show what spells are in CD and the game isn't designed to be forgiving once a PC gets hit. MMOs you can generally take a good beating and survive without many repercussions. In GSIV, you get hit once and it could end your hunt with your death or a rank 2 or 3 wound that prevents you from continuing.
While the ideas you have are sound in theory, they just don't really fit in with how gemstone functions for hunting/fighting. At least, they don't in my mind.
-Drumpel
The old prep time on spells, when I first trained a wizard, it felt awesome to see that 10 second prep time when I learned a new spell. I remember when I trained to Minor Fire for the first time. 10 seconds to prep the spell...the anticipation of the power behind it....Only to unleash the hell upon the poor kobold unlucky enough to taste my new ball of death! It was glorious! Then as I progressed levels my powerful spells I learned a few levels before only took me 5 seconds to prep and the basic spells I first started with now had no prep time. The world was my oyster!
In all seriousness, I felt like I earned something back in the day. It was awesome, but.... After having played so long without prep times (not that I'd have any based on how they used to work) I would feel hindered. Disconnected from my ability to hunt. If the old system came back, I think it would really tick people off to have to wait 10 seconds to prep a like level spell...so you're pretty much standing there with your finger up your nose if you can't swing a weapon. Years back wizards trained sword/board, it was the norm for the game. You could take potshots at things while your prep time ticked away. You don't get the same luxury today because of the training path changes with runestaffs for pures.
For having longer cast times - it could be a killer of a thing to wizards specifically. If things are really hectic, I rely on my spells to put targets prone (tremors, call wind or ewave) and then follow up with Cone of Lightning (or elements, whatever they're calling these days). Tacking on extra cast time for any of these spells leaves a poor wizard very vulnerable in creature heavy areas. We can't take hits like squares and some semis can. The defensive spells we have don't really help if you have no other way to defend yourself because you're caught in a longer cast RT.
As for a spell cooldown - it could be something for very high end spells that deals out mass amounts of damage, but normal hunting spells could really put you in a bad spot. Go out and encounter a creature, I cast 904 - creature doesn't die and isn't stunned. I cast 909 and follow up with 906 - creature is stunned and prone. I cast 907 - creature is dead (12 seconds have passed since my initial cast of 904).
Soon as the first creature was killed a new one walks in. I cast 904 - denied, still in cooldown for 15 seconds. I cast 410 - creature is pinned. I cast 906 - still in cooldown for 15 seconds. I cast 910 - creature is stunned.
New creature walks in!
I cast 410 - still in cooldown for 21 seconds!
I cast 909 - still in cooldown for 9 seconds!
I cast 904 - still in cooldown for 6 seconds!
I cast 510 - creature avoids, DS too high!
Creature attacks - maneuver attack! Hit and knocked down, stunned for 2 rounds.
Creature that was stunned is up and my wizard's life comes to and end because staple hunting spells are locked out because of a cooldown.
Granted you only suggested 30 seconds, but I see any kind of cooldown on normal hunting spells to have a very negative impact on a pure. This isn't a graphical MMO where you can easily see what abilities are up and quickly click on them. It doesn't play like any current MMO and it shouldn't be designed to behave like one. I don't have a hotkey GUI on my screen to show what spells are in CD and the game isn't designed to be forgiving once a PC gets hit. MMOs you can generally take a good beating and survive without many repercussions. In GSIV, you get hit once and it could end your hunt with your death or a rank 2 or 3 wound that prevents you from continuing.
While the ideas you have are sound in theory, they just don't really fit in with how gemstone functions for hunting/fighting. At least, they don't in my mind.
-Drumpel
KANDOR
Re: Cooldowns, roundtimes, & prep times
01/05/2016 12:59 AM CST
I was thinking more of using prep time on certain named spells, different from the way it used to be but it'd look similar. Maybe powerful spells like cone of elements, spike thorn, implosion, song of Tonis, etc. should take somewhat longer time to prepare, OR longer cast RT. Maybe the longer cast RT is better for semis, who can still swing. I'm just suggesting these as alternate methods of recovery than a cooldown; they are points where a variable could be introduced. They may be no better than a cooldown, in practice, but I didn't see them mentioned as options.
Critters and hunting grounds can be rebalanced -- it takes work, but sometimes it's necessary. It's one thing to evaluate a suggestion based on the way it'd work in the game today, but consider how the hunting area might need to be changed to work in line with the suggestion. When haste is changed, for example, it may be that some of the hunting areas need to be updated to compensate. The critter behaviors are currently based on assumptions that are no longer going to be accurate. If certain spells had longer prep or round times, critters should also follow suit. Also, and especially when comparing capped hunting areas, these areas have the most statistical variance in the game because you're dealing with the most variability in PC skill training. For any level X, the greater X is, the harder it is to create something that's equally balanced for everyone at X. It's hard even when skill gain is linear, and this game isn't.
Critters and hunting grounds can be rebalanced -- it takes work, but sometimes it's necessary. It's one thing to evaluate a suggestion based on the way it'd work in the game today, but consider how the hunting area might need to be changed to work in line with the suggestion. When haste is changed, for example, it may be that some of the hunting areas need to be updated to compensate. The critter behaviors are currently based on assumptions that are no longer going to be accurate. If certain spells had longer prep or round times, critters should also follow suit. Also, and especially when comparing capped hunting areas, these areas have the most statistical variance in the game because you're dealing with the most variability in PC skill training. For any level X, the greater X is, the harder it is to create something that's equally balanced for everyone at X. It's hard even when skill gain is linear, and this game isn't.
KRAKII
Re: Cooldowns, roundtimes, & prep times
01/05/2016 08:48 AM CST
Cone and Immolate, maybe Haste. The EWave pair.
Done.
Done.
DAID
Re: Cooldowns, roundtimes, & prep times
01/11/2016 09:55 AM CST
As for creature balance, it's interesting since creatures still often have spell preparation times.
However, I don't see how prep-times really help the situation at all. If I have one spell prepared with a long time to wait, I literally can't do anything else. Maybe that's the point but at least when the cooldown timer is ticking away at spell X I can still cast spell Y. This would be unlike the case where I prepare spell X with a 10 second prep and I can't do much besides swing my runestaff. It's not really a different situation than making a longer cast RT, since again I cannot cast any other spell, no matter what it is, during that time.
The brainstorming is appreciated, but I'd take the default "cooldown" option over either of these every time.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
However, I don't see how prep-times really help the situation at all. If I have one spell prepared with a long time to wait, I literally can't do anything else. Maybe that's the point but at least when the cooldown timer is ticking away at spell X I can still cast spell Y. This would be unlike the case where I prepare spell X with a 10 second prep and I can't do much besides swing my runestaff. It's not really a different situation than making a longer cast RT, since again I cannot cast any other spell, no matter what it is, during that time.
The brainstorming is appreciated, but I'd take the default "cooldown" option over either of these every time.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
BLACKKOBOLD2
Re: Cooldowns, roundtimes, & prep times
01/27/2016 09:30 AM CST
<I had some notes from the ELR I didn't post at the time. These can apply to any spell, though.
<First suggestion - Why not re-introduce prep times for certain spells as an alternative to cooldown? It could be a flat 10 sec or the time could go up if the spell is used too frequently. <Giving a few spells a prep time, even just 5 or 10 sec, would change hunting dynamics a bit. The prep time I'm envisioning doesn't train away like it used to, but
<Second suggestion - Can some spells have a longer cast RT than 3 sec? For example, if a spell is more or less the equivalent of MSTRIKE, would it make sense to give it a longer RT?
<My third note is to suggest giving every spell a 30 sec cooldown. This is probably overkill but I thought it was an interesting way to discourage spamming a single spell and encourage <variety. Unfortunately I don't think some class builds have enough variety to support it.
A little late to the party, but this is exactly what we need in GS. The combat just feels so dated sometimes. RT is just an awful mechanic. SO restrictive. Think about how it COULD be!
Let's introduce a hypothetical spell: It's a bolt. It's very powerful (high DF:mana ratio, solid crit table, and perhaps some secondary effects?). And it's balanced by the fact that you need to wait 3 seconds to prepare it. As a twist, let's say it also has no actual cast RT but instead has a 10 second cooldown, so it isn't spammable but does allow you to perform interesting combinations.
So how would this change combat? Well, for starters, it provides a new function for setups. If you have to make yourself vulnerable during a 3s prep time, you would probably want to use a setup. It wouldn't necessarily be worth it, except that in addition to the high power/mana ratio of the spell and its' secondary effects, there is no followup RT so you can immediately prep/cast a standard spell after using this one. And that's balanced by the cooldown which prevents you from chaining this effect.
This also opens up a lot of opportunity to introduce synergy between abilities - an important step in designing sub-classes. If, for instance, we buried combination effects throughout the lore skill trees, we could begin to force true choices and distinction between wizards specializing in various lore types. The ELR was a missed opportunity in that sense. They failed to create sub-classes (and, in fairness, that really wasn't their goal - it just should have been!).
So what sort of "synergy" could we come up with? Well, let's say I'm a fire mage and our hypothetical spell is called "fan the flames" and let's further change it so that "fan the flames" is a lore bonus applied to major fire. It still has the above-mentioned attributes (3s prep time, 10s cooldown, high DF:mana ratio, and secondary effects). So, if you have sufficient fire lore to unlock "fan the flames", you may choose to cast the prep-time version of major fire and produce a spell that appears identical, but has a higher DF, better explosion results (more power/hits more targets?), and applies an immolation effect to all enemies struck by the explosion.
So where does that leave us? Now you have to apply an immolation effect in order to use fan the flames, it has a 3s prep time and a 10s cooldown. But the effect is a powerful bolt plus explosion and area effect disabler in one.
So much potential there, I think.
~Taverkin
<First suggestion - Why not re-introduce prep times for certain spells as an alternative to cooldown? It could be a flat 10 sec or the time could go up if the spell is used too frequently. <Giving a few spells a prep time, even just 5 or 10 sec, would change hunting dynamics a bit. The prep time I'm envisioning doesn't train away like it used to, but
<Second suggestion - Can some spells have a longer cast RT than 3 sec? For example, if a spell is more or less the equivalent of MSTRIKE, would it make sense to give it a longer RT?
<My third note is to suggest giving every spell a 30 sec cooldown. This is probably overkill but I thought it was an interesting way to discourage spamming a single spell and encourage <variety. Unfortunately I don't think some class builds have enough variety to support it.
A little late to the party, but this is exactly what we need in GS. The combat just feels so dated sometimes. RT is just an awful mechanic. SO restrictive. Think about how it COULD be!
Let's introduce a hypothetical spell: It's a bolt. It's very powerful (high DF:mana ratio, solid crit table, and perhaps some secondary effects?). And it's balanced by the fact that you need to wait 3 seconds to prepare it. As a twist, let's say it also has no actual cast RT but instead has a 10 second cooldown, so it isn't spammable but does allow you to perform interesting combinations.
So how would this change combat? Well, for starters, it provides a new function for setups. If you have to make yourself vulnerable during a 3s prep time, you would probably want to use a setup. It wouldn't necessarily be worth it, except that in addition to the high power/mana ratio of the spell and its' secondary effects, there is no followup RT so you can immediately prep/cast a standard spell after using this one. And that's balanced by the cooldown which prevents you from chaining this effect.
This also opens up a lot of opportunity to introduce synergy between abilities - an important step in designing sub-classes. If, for instance, we buried combination effects throughout the lore skill trees, we could begin to force true choices and distinction between wizards specializing in various lore types. The ELR was a missed opportunity in that sense. They failed to create sub-classes (and, in fairness, that really wasn't their goal - it just should have been!).
So what sort of "synergy" could we come up with? Well, let's say I'm a fire mage and our hypothetical spell is called "fan the flames" and let's further change it so that "fan the flames" is a lore bonus applied to major fire. It still has the above-mentioned attributes (3s prep time, 10s cooldown, high DF:mana ratio, and secondary effects). So, if you have sufficient fire lore to unlock "fan the flames", you may choose to cast the prep-time version of major fire and produce a spell that appears identical, but has a higher DF, better explosion results (more power/hits more targets?), and applies an immolation effect to all enemies struck by the explosion.
So where does that leave us? Now you have to apply an immolation effect in order to use fan the flames, it has a 3s prep time and a 10s cooldown. But the effect is a powerful bolt plus explosion and area effect disabler in one.
So much potential there, I think.
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD2
Re: Cooldowns, roundtimes, & prep times
01/27/2016 09:42 AM CST
We could even have sub-classes within sub-classes. What if there were several combo effects that rely on the immolation pre-requisite? Further, what if there at least one other focus for fire builds? In other games, there are usually builds that focus on "burst" or "direct" damage, while others revolve around damage over time. We could have "burn" mages that operate primarily by applying immolation effects and spreading them as both an offensive and defensive measure. They still have burst, it's just that the most powerful direct damage effects in this build rely on first applying damage over time disablers.
I really believe balance becomes easier if you have more options to work with, not less. The key is that they must be mutually exclusive paths that offer distinct advantages (and, I would hope, a distinctive feel as well!). RT is just so restrictive, I think it makes the job that much more difficult to accomplish. All spells lock out all other spells for the duration of the cast RT. Ideas such as mixing up pre- and post-prep RT along with short cooldowns has potential to open that up a lot, in my opinion.
~Taverkin
I really believe balance becomes easier if you have more options to work with, not less. The key is that they must be mutually exclusive paths that offer distinct advantages (and, I would hope, a distinctive feel as well!). RT is just so restrictive, I think it makes the job that much more difficult to accomplish. All spells lock out all other spells for the duration of the cast RT. Ideas such as mixing up pre- and post-prep RT along with short cooldowns has potential to open that up a lot, in my opinion.
~Taverkin
