Why can't we have a combat system that provides the same level of efficiency without instant kills that bypass the system? It seems like weak design to me, to create this elaborate, complex combat system that is one of the hallmarks of Gemstone, and then bypasses it with instant kills or automatic DS/TD pushdowns. Can we focus on designing the system so that spells provide the same kill rate WITHIN the system instead of bypassing the system that so much work has gone into?
To provide an example that is currently a hot topic: reducing the instant-kill rate for immolate. Is it not possible to reduce the instant-kill rate, but maintain the same overall kill rate? Wouldn't that actually be better for those who are maximally trained? Why not have lores affect DF instead of provide any sort of instant anything? If designed right, you would get the same kill rate, but it wouldn't bypass other systems in place, and would therefore be stronger design. Other examples abound: implosion (instant kill), and the new thoughts for 502 (DS reduction from a CS based spell). You could get the same or better effectiveness without bypassing the combat system to get there.
Kerl
ARCHIGEEK
OBSERVER
Re: Instant kills and other combat system bypasses
09/04/2015 11:47 AM CDT
I think the issue is in part that CS spells and bolts cannot be aimed. Working within the system would mean targeting body parts which would reliably allow for a kill without relying upon a flat % chance of death modifiers. So outside of aiming for crits, what's left? Either HP attrition, or multiple randomized shots where you hope for one that does the job.
For the latter, we're looking for something with the potency of Mstriking with a high DF weapon. This is certainly doable, as seen in the spell of Dark Catalyst. No % chance death kills there, just a series of very high damage shots, where with any luck you'll finish your target, or only require 1 additional follow up attack.
For the former, I suppose you'd have to look at something like Hurl Boulder? It has very high DFs, but unlike weapons it cannot be tricked out with crit weighting (outside of hated critters and GoS). Runestaff flares do help in this regard. Wizards have 515 (which is being nerfed) as a means of throwing multiple shots of these unaimed heavy hits at a target in quick succession, but other pure classes do not.
I don't know how many squares/semis flat-out open swing, but it always seemed to be a unreliable means of hunting overcome by abilities like Berserk, Redux/plate, Mstrike, etc. Pures can't afford sitting in front of critters in 5+ second bouts of hard RT. At higher levels, squares and semis lose that ability as well.
I like the idea of aimed bolts, but I honestly don't know how you would aim CS spells. I guess you would give your % chance of death for ensuring access to higher crit values while hoping you hit something fatal.
For the latter, we're looking for something with the potency of Mstriking with a high DF weapon. This is certainly doable, as seen in the spell of Dark Catalyst. No % chance death kills there, just a series of very high damage shots, where with any luck you'll finish your target, or only require 1 additional follow up attack.
For the former, I suppose you'd have to look at something like Hurl Boulder? It has very high DFs, but unlike weapons it cannot be tricked out with crit weighting (outside of hated critters and GoS). Runestaff flares do help in this regard. Wizards have 515 (which is being nerfed) as a means of throwing multiple shots of these unaimed heavy hits at a target in quick succession, but other pure classes do not.
I don't know how many squares/semis flat-out open swing, but it always seemed to be a unreliable means of hunting overcome by abilities like Berserk, Redux/plate, Mstrike, etc. Pures can't afford sitting in front of critters in 5+ second bouts of hard RT. At higher levels, squares and semis lose that ability as well.
I like the idea of aimed bolts, but I honestly don't know how you would aim CS spells. I guess you would give your % chance of death for ensuring access to higher crit values while hoping you hit something fatal.
OBSERVER
Re: Instant kills and other combat system bypasses
09/04/2015 12:01 PM CDT
A better example of a pure HP attrition spell would be Fervent Reproach, which actually does no critical damage. I happen to like the spell by design, but I have no idea what high level Clerics think of it. It likely works a lot better with something like Spirit Slayer.
So when we're seeing a balanced (so no 515+519) spell based attrition model, it's typically backed up with the ability to produce a high volume of spells in quick succession, most with a high DF/crit so there's a good chance of a fatal shot "within the system".
Spirit Slayer covers Empaths and Clerics, whereas Rapid Fire covers Wizards.
So when we're seeing a balanced (so no 515+519) spell based attrition model, it's typically backed up with the ability to produce a high volume of spells in quick succession, most with a high DF/crit so there's a good chance of a fatal shot "within the system".
Spirit Slayer covers Empaths and Clerics, whereas Rapid Fire covers Wizards.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Instant kills and other combat system bypasses
09/04/2015 12:05 PM CDT
I get what you're saying, but I think there are ways to do it within the system of combat instead of bypassing it. Aiming for a square is essential, as you rightly surmised, and yet you'd be surprised how low percentage the results are. We rely just as heavily on stuns and (as you correctly ID'd) mstrike, as well as TWC to get us more attacks to increase our odds, heavier weapons for higher DFs, and probably more than anything, setup maneuvers to start the sequence. All of those are subject to a combat formula of one sort or another; none of them bypass the system.
Spell attack systems can reach the same or better kill efficiency that instant-kill bypasses currently provide, and do it within the system by tweaking DFs, as well as adding multi-attacks of various sorts. In the end it makes for a stronger, better design. As an additional plus, training to increase the power of your attack will always be a plus in every attack, instead of just getting a bonus instant kill a certain percentage of the time.
Kerl
Spell attack systems can reach the same or better kill efficiency that instant-kill bypasses currently provide, and do it within the system by tweaking DFs, as well as adding multi-attacks of various sorts. In the end it makes for a stronger, better design. As an additional plus, training to increase the power of your attack will always be a plus in every attack, instead of just getting a bonus instant kill a certain percentage of the time.
Kerl
